Quantum physics and Christianity

[JohnDB]

2Peter 3:5 (NIV)

It's water by water

 

[Edward]

So are you saying that when I hug my darling wife that I'm trading electrons and these electrons have an effect on either of us? Have I been deluded into thinking I am hugging her fleshly being for these many years when she is not solid matter after all?

Oz

Not at all Brother! You're both real, Spirit beings created in the very image and likeness of GOD.

When you hug her, a river of life flows out of you from your belly (heart) and to her. It's love, the most powerful force in existence and is indeed, God himself, for God is love.

;)

 

[Edward]

You aren't getting the concept of solid.the idea most people think that we have solid objects that have no holes to the point nothing has the ability to pass throught it isn't the case.

Lead is very dense yet gamma radiation has been able in small amounts to pass through it given how dense the protection is.

You're right, Brother. The way that I understand it is the atoms which make up an object have uh electrons which orbit around the nucleus, and according to the scale of size...are a great distance from the nucleus and so according to the scale, makes there more empty space than solid within...

So objects are more empty than solid.

Does that make sense?

 

[Edward]

It's not a science book though. We gain understanding from it, but not because we know how things work, but because we trust God. So many times God doesn't give an explaination, but just tells us what we should do. When Job questioned God in his sorrow and pain eventually God replied. God's reply was who are you to question me. Then God gave an account of what He has done and asked Job, have you done this can you do that. God explained he was the only authority. Job repented, not because God explained the hardships Job went through, but because he recoginized God for being the authority and sovereign. In many of the laws that don't have an explaination there's a repeated phrase for obeying the laws made. The phrase as I've seen it was "I am the LORD," and it occurred several times after a law is given. Even in parables that give us spiritual insight and use the world around us to illustrate the teachings and what the Kingdom of Heaven is like; those parables aren't explaining how things work.

The bible is a collection of works that are from God, inspired because of God. That makes the bible an authority, a standard, but not science.

As for the scientists and reasurchers who are in the scientific communities that reject God. They might be blind more then they are stubborn. There's a culture that is a heavy fog over many people that says God doesn't exist, and it's expecially heavy over the scientific community that looks for explainations for how things work. I don't think it's a mistake that Jesus told us we are the light and the salt of the earth. We really are suppose to be beacons to those who are blind and in the dark.

That's correct. It is not a science book par de. My statement was light hearted...but it does have science in it! The passages in Hebrews already posted and actually even beginning in Genesis 1:1 where it speaks of time, space and matter.

I like how you took that further and it makes perfect sense...I Am the Lord...(yes). Though perhaps a better term than beacons may be conduit, lol.

 

[OzSpen]

Not at all Brother! You're both real, Spirit beings created in the very image and likeness of GOD.

When you hug her, a river of life flows out of you from your belly (heart) and to her. It's love, the most powerful force in existence and is indeed, God himself, for God is love.

;)

I must admit to you that I am not a Spirit being. I am a body-soul being.
See: What’s the difference between soul and spirit?

 

[Edward]

I must admit to you that I am not a Spirit being. I am a body-soul being.
See: What’s the difference between soul and spirit?

That was an interesting article. I have no comment on it, having just read it...

I've always held that we are triune beings, (body-soul-spirit), but that's too deep a topic to discuss here, it should have its own thread...

Blessings to you...

 

[OzSpen]

That was an interesting article. I have no comment on it, having just read it...

I've always held that we are triune beings, (body-soul-spirit), but that's too deep a topic to discuss here, it should have its own thread...

Blessings to you...

Yes, it's for another thread, but I hope I showed in the article that 'soul' and 'spirit' are interchangeable terms. I'm bipartite in my theological understanding of the make-up of human beings.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, it's for another thread, but I hope I showed in the article that 'soul' and 'spirit' are interchangeable terms. I'm bipartite in my theological understanding of the make-up of human beings.

Oz

I've been astonished at the development of the term "soul". How lately it is used interchangeably with "Spirit".

But that's not a person's soul.

I am a Soul, I have a body AND a spirit AND a mind.

So I wonder if a new term is going to be created to regain what was meant by Soul.

 

[OzSpen]

I've been astonished at the development of the term "soul". How lately it is used interchangeably with "Spirit".

But that's not a person's soul.

I am a Soul, I have a body AND a spirit AND a mind.

So I wonder if a new term is going to be created to regain what was meant by Soul.

I know your statements are not accurate for these biblical reasons:

In John 12:27, Jesus said, “Now is my soul (psuche) troubled”, while in a similar context in the next chapter he said, “Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) [John 13:21]” This hardly means that Jesus’ “life force” (breath) was troubled.

• At death, the “soul” or “spirit” departs.

When Rachel died, the Bible records: “Her soul (nephesh) was departing [she had died]” (Gen. 35:18), but Eccl. 12:7 records that at death, “the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it.” This hardly means that "I am a Soul" (your language) was returning to God.

• A human being is said to consist of either “body and soul” or “body and spirit.”

In Matt. 10: 28, we read, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psuche). Rather fear him who can destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell” (ESV). It seems clear from this verse that “soul” refers to the part of the person that lives beyond death. If the “soul” was "I am a Soul", it could be killed. That’s not what Jesus said. His authoritative view was that the “soul” cannot be killed. It cannot die.

But when Paul wants to deliver an erring brother over to Satan, he said that it was “for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:5).

Seems to me that you are the one introducing new terminology into the Scripture.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

I know your statements are not accurate for these biblical reasons:

In John 12:27, Jesus said, “Now is my soul (psuche) troubled”, while in a similar context in the next chapter he said, “Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) [John 13:21]” This hardly means that Jesus’ “life force” (breath) was troubled.

• At death, the “soul” or “spirit” departs.

When Rachel died, the Bible records: “Her soul (nephesh) was departing [she had died]” (Gen. 35:18), but Eccl. 12:7 records that at death, “the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it.” This hardly means that "I am a Soul" (your language) was returning to God.

• A human being is said to consist of either “body and soul” or “body and spirit.”

In Matt. 10: 28, we read, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psuche). Rather fear him who can destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell” (ESV). It seems clear from this verse that “soul” refers to the part of the person that lives beyond death. If the “soul” was "I am a Soul", it could be killed. That’s not what Jesus said. His authoritative view was that the “soul” cannot be killed. It cannot die.

But when Paul wants to deliver an erring brother over to Satan, he said that it was “for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:5).

Seems to me that you are the one introducing new terminology into the Scripture.

Oz

This sounds like a great topic for the theology forum.

 

[Brother Mike]

Quantum physics is a study of how particles can behave like waves.

Like marbles in a box vx water.
When we get down past the protons, neutrons, and electrons we get to quarks...and then into Higgs-Boson particles. (Which is an explanation of solid matter vx energy/waves)

And where the scientists can explain in a really complicated fashion how each of these behave....they have no idea as to why. (Because logically they shouldn't)

We can understand magnetism, inertia, gravity and etc...but this stuff is out of nowhere. The only reason this stuff behaves the way it does is because of the voice of God.

That same voice which created the universe can tell anything anywhere to be anything at any time. Yes, Jesus could turn stones into bread or water into wine...but the same thing applies to the air we breathe or the light we see. Because in reality... it's not there. It's an illusion held together by the voice of God.
But knowing that doesn't mean that you get to break the natural laws. You can't fly or turn lead into gold.
But it does mean that you only really own your attitude. Everything else is God's.

Wow, a moderator now, congratulations, not on here any more enough to notice. You and I have not seen Atoms with their electrons, we have been told they are there. Higgs bossom is something else, it's not real. C.E.R.N is not studying space. C.E.R.N with NASA have been trying to figure out what is beyond Earth or what the heck that 4th dimension is. Both have been working together to get is sorted by saying they are creating micro black holes to form a tiny portal that connects the the 4th dimension realm. You need gravity to do that, and they know gravity is not real either. Mass does not pull other mass. Gravity does not magically keep the earth's atmosphere on earth surrounded by the vacuum they claim is out there. Nothing survives a absolute zero vacuum. (Absence of particles that produce heat signatures) If earth were really encased in a vacuum, it would violently rip the atmosphere off earth and very quickly. Vacuums do not connect to non-vacuums.

Gravity does not pull trillions of gallons of water up from the ocean by the moon to form tides and yet at the same time have earth's gravity keep the moon in perfect orbit around earth. Gravity just does not effect salt water or is picky as they claim because no tides are created in very large bodies of fresh water and the moon does not pull on anything else as it should having gravity strong enough to suck up oceans.

Gravity, Time, and probibility are all the theories and lies of modern science. Not reproducable in any observable way, They all enforce the Heliocentric false model of earth and evolution.

Are electrons and Atoms real? Good question, but it's possible they are as experiments were done before 1950's when Science was not taken by over by the government media, and government run news agencies.

If real, then it is possible to turn water into Gold as you just have to arrange the atoms and electrons, and the slit experiment proves all matter has conscience that is connected to our conscience and main observable conscience which is God. If that is the case, the God just explained to man exactly what faith is and how faith works and for that they have no excuse.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Interesting thread. My understanding is similar to Jethro's.

It has to do with quantum entanglement. They've taken particles, separated the particles by miles, then stimulate one particle, it has a reaction...and the other particle is instantly stimulated also. Wirelessly in fact.

What it means is that, every particle of the universe knows what every other particle is doing and reacts accordingly to stimuli.

So the theory goes is, the desk is not there when you're not looking at it, but it senses that you're coming, so does what it has to do to manifest so that you can see and touch it.

Anybody see the movie, the 13th Floor? Sorta like that.

Search youboob for the video about the double slit experiment. It explains it pretty down to earth for us mere mortals, lol.

The desk would be there because of cosmic consciences that is connected to our consciousnesses. Already created matter would remain if cosmic consciousnesses had already known it was there. Jesus said believe you receive then you shall have it. Knowing something is there you can't yet see (faith) creates that probability and reality by matter itself having it's own consciousnesses.

Can rocks hear? Jesus said they cry out, can fever's hear? yep, Jesus rebuked the fever in Peters mother in law (I think it was mother inlaw) can storms hear? Sure can as Jesus spoke and rebuked the storm. If faith is strong enough to discount what we see, know, hear, feel, touch, taste and is fixed on what created matter the word of God, then all things become possible like walking on water and telling water it needs to be arranged into wine.

All matter is aware of God and answers. If we are focused on God in faith and trust then matter also would be aware and obey us through the work and power of the Lord Jesus Christ with His authority and name. All things become possible to them that believe with no random probability possible, or have a Satanic spirit have control. Faith does not pick A or B, Faith says it's A and that is how it is.

Mike.

 

[JohnDB]

Wow, a moderator now, congratulations, not on here any more enough to notice. You and I have not seen Atoms with their electrons, we have been told they are there. Higgs bossom is something else, it's not real. C.E.R.N is not studying space. C.E.R.N with NASA have been trying to figure out what is beyond Earth or what the heck that 4th dimension is. Both have been working together to get is sorted by saying they are creating micro black holes to form a tiny portal that connects the the 4th dimension realm. You need gravity to do that, and they know gravity is not real either. Mass does not pull other mass. Gravity does not magically keep the earth's atmosphere on earth surrounded by the vacuum they claim is out there. Nothing survives a absolute zero vacuum. (Absence of particles that produce heat signatures) If earth were really encased in a vacuum, it would violently rip the atmosphere off earth and very quickly. Vacuums do not connect to non-vacuums.

Gravity does not pull trillions of gallons of water up from the ocean by the moon to form tides and yet at the same time have earth's gravity keep the moon in perfect orbit around earth. Gravity just does not effect salt water or is picky as they claim because no tides are created in very large bodies of fresh water and the moon does not pull on anything else as it should having gravity strong enough to suck up oceans.

Gravity, Time, and probibility are all the theories and lies of modern science. Not reproducable in any observable way, They all enforce the Heliocentric false model of earth and evolution.

Are electrons and Atoms real? Good question, but it's possible they are as experiments were done before 1950's when Science was not taken by over by the government media, and government run news agencies.

If real, then it is possible to turn water into Gold as you just have to arrange the atoms and electrons, and the slit experiment proves all matter has conscience that is connected to our conscience and main observable conscience which is God. If that is the case, the God just explained to man exactly what faith is and how faith works and for that they have no excuse.

Mike.

What?
You want pics?

This one ain't real good because an electron is a beach ball compared to a marble in size on a sub-atomic level.

But LINK here to see a hydrogen atom.

 

[Brother Mike]

What?
You want pics?

This one ain't real good because an electron is a beach ball compared to a marble in size on a sub-atomic level.

But LINK here to see a hydrogen atom.

Awesome man. To know about these things in the early 1900's and not having seen imaging of them until way later is remarkable. I believe they are real because I believe the slit experiment Edward talked about. This is also before they found out about the earth with the Admiral Byrd mission operation High Jump then operation deep freeze. It was only at that point the governments got involved in ramming Eisenstein and Newtonian science through media and erasing the science of brilliant men like Tesla.

Thank you for sharing.

Mike.

 

[Edward]

The desk would be there because of cosmic consciences that is connected to our consciousnesses. Already created matter would remain if cosmic consciousnesses had already known it was there. Jesus said believe you receive then you shall have it. Knowing something is there you can't yet see (faith) creates that probability and reality by matter itself having it's own consciousnesses.

Ohhh, the cosmic consciousness memory. At first, the desk isn't there, (nothing to relate to through the connection to our consciousness) and after we (expect to) see it, then there's something to relate to, so it is and remains. Does that make sense?

Sorta like babies i think. They're whole world exists within about 12 inches or so (no experience or anything to relate to beyond that)
Within that 12" sphere, is mommy. Over time, their world expands through through experience, they remember...and grow.

Memory plays a big part in this.

I remember watching a science video about something and the statement was made that they're pretty sure that water has memory.

I didn't get it at the time, but do now because it makes sense.

Can rocks hear? Jesus said they cry out, can fever's hear? yep, Jesus rebuked the fever in Peters mother in law (I think it was mother inlaw) can storms hear? Sure can as Jesus spoke and rebuked the storm. If faith is strong enough to discount what we see, know, hear, feel, touch, taste and is fixed on what created matter the word of God, then all things become possible like walking on water and telling water it needs to be arranged into wine.

They sure can. If they can declare the glory of God and storms obey the word of God then of course they can! This is big, Brother. This is...where we become as little children and begin learning the real truth, and how to live.

To be able to discount what we see like you say and focus on the unseen, the invisible things, the word...God.

:woot
Good post Brother...

 

[Edward]

reply to a deleted post , reba

 

[Pizza]

I just found this thread. The first 60 or so posts were very enjoyable to read. For really informative and deep discussions of such topics, I usually just read threads over on the other forum I visit often. I am very surprised to see the level of understand a few here demonstrate.

Early in the thread, I had hopes that *someone* would see how such a discussion can lead one to the conclusion that both the "young earth creationists" and "old earth creationists" are BOTH right - and how they talk past one another when they argue. That did not happen, but, in any event, this was an enjoyable read.

 

[OzSpen]

I just found this thread. The first 60 or so posts were very enjoyable to read. For really informative and deep discussions of such topics, I usually just read threads over on the other forum I visit often. I am very surprised to see the level of understand a few here demonstrate.

Early in the thread, I had hopes that *someone* would see how such a discussion can lead one to the conclusion that both the "young earth creationists" and "old earth creationists" are BOTH right - and how they talk past one another when they argue. That did not happen, but, in any event, this was an enjoyable read.

Pizza,

I'd be interested in your reasons why BOTH young earth and old earth creationists can be correct.

Oz

 

[Edward]

Pizza,

I'd be interested in your reasons why BOTH young earth and old earth creationists can be correct.

Oz

Forgive me for answering the question to pizza, but I've suspected the same thing and so will tell you what I think (suspect)...

I think that when all is said and done, that science and theology will click together. Earth and all we know and is, was created by God, and science is the observation and knowledge of what is...so how could they not merge together?

The problem arises when one side or the other figure some things out, but not the whole.

God, in his infinite wisdom, did this on purpose so that we have to have faith and trust Him.

It's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to seek them out...

God conceals a lot. He also sends delusions to some and/or blocks them from (total) understanding so that the enemy won't know His plans, and so that His sheep will strive and work and seek him in faith.

I'm not saying that God plants fake evidence, but evidence that would be easily misconstrued unless consistent diligent study and revelation by the Holy Spirit...would weed out all but the most faithful and pure of heart from figuring out God's will and plans.

Man is so full of himself and prideful makes people want to be right, aha you're wrong and I'm right instead of considering maybe we're both right and just don't realize it.

Something like that.

 

[Pizza]

Edward, you could not be farther from my thinking - and yet, maybe you aren't. That last long sentence of yours DOES ring with truth...

OZ, here is my answer, it is not easy to explain (none of this is) and I hope I can' communicate my thoughts. I am afraid this may be such a long post that many wont bother to read it. I can't say I blame them.

In "Back to the Future" 'Doc' tells Marty, "You'ge got to think fourth demensionally..." What Doc was saying, was that Marty was not taking into account time, and their fictional ability to travel back and forth in time.

Well, I'd say to you, to all who argue this, to "think fourth demensionally..." 6000 years or 4.5 billion? Why not? What is a year? You can't really define a year, not when you talk about God's act of creation. If you really get into the first moments of the universe, you can't define what a second, day, month or year is - not at all, because those definitions depend on who you are and WHERE you are. Read on.

Back about 20 years ago, I was watching a physicist speak on "space-time", he was hard to understand, because I think of time as something that is fundamental. To me, a minute lasts the same amount of 'time' here on earth, in space, near the sun, traveling at the speed of light, etc. It simply cannot be anything more complicated than that. But this physicist spoke about time and how, if you travel REALLY fast, I mean REAL FAST, 95% of the speed of light - after you have traveled for an hour in your superfast space ship or other machine - we here on earth have experienced the passage of time much greater than you. To you, an hour has passed, to us, 3.2 hours have passed.

The physicist went on to explain just how fast the universe expanded at the very instant of "the big bang". If you could have stood on the material being thrown out (impossible but if.....) time would have gone by VERY quickly for you. BUT, as the physicist explained:

Imagine if you were a being who could exist outside of space-time. What would you see? I do not know, because we can't exist outside of space-time. (But I believe that God can.-PG) Anyway, imagine if you were a being who lived within space-time and you were watching this? Time dilation tells us that you would perceive the first fraction of a fraction of a millisecond of the universe's expansion as something that took a VERY long time! Remember, you are standing back watching this, time goes by very slowly for you, as compared to time going by for the material being thrown around.
​

Of course, it is impossible for any of us to experience any of this, it has already happened AND when it DID happen, the universe was expanding from a tiny center - there was no way ANYTHING could watch it - not anything PHYSICAL like us. But God is not physical, and He WAS watching, He was DIRECTING this. What we refer to as the "Big Bang", was God's speaking into existence all that we know, all of the universe. The big bang DID happen - when we study it, we study God's act of creation of the very universe.

So you see (I hope) what I mean when I say the universe could be 6000 years old AND 4.5 billion years old, at the same time. Because time itself is not something that we can hold or define or grasp completely. If you were there, it would seem to have all happened rather quickly. But if you were WATCHING IT, it would have taken EONS to happen. When Genesis speaks of the act of creation, just whose perspective is it talking about? When we take a simplistic view of the act of creation, we fool ourselves into that thinking that Edward spoke of in his post above: Man is so full of himself and prideful makes people want to be right, aha you're wrong and I'm right instead of considering maybe we're both right and just don't realize it.

Now, go back in this thread and read about how matter and energy are exchangeable. Read (I think I read this in this thread) about properties of light. James Burke (famous BBC reporter and researcher and long-time atheist) once spoke of the properties of light and was explaining some of the work of Theodoric of Freiberg. Burke had contempt for Christianity and made a remark referring to early Christian teachings of how "Light had to be the fundamental building block that God used to create the universe". Burke was, of course, being sarcastic -but if you read and read and read, you find that he actually, accidentally, hit on something. The properties of light ARE a fundamental building block of our universe. I believe that when God said, "Let there be light", He actually created light AND set out the rules that it works by.

Did God intend for us to discuss and debate this? I'm not sure - but I know He did not intend for us to ARGUE and FIGHT over it.

And one more thing, I have no issues with science trying to explain things without God being part of the discussion. I know many do, but I don't. Even the "great" atheist Neil DeGrasee Tyson has said it "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."