Quantum physics and Christianity

[Angel]

Can any of you suggest a book about all this- that is simple to read?

 

[OzSpen]

Edward, you could not be farther from my thinking - and yet, maybe you aren't. That last long sentence of yours DOES ring with truth...

OZ, here is my answer, it is not easy to explain (none of this is) and I hope I can' communicate my thoughts. I am afraid this may be such a long post that many wont bother to read it. I can't say I blame them.

In "Back to the Future" 'Doc' tells Marty, "You'ge got to think fourth demensionally..." What Doc was saying, was that Marty was not taking into account time, and their fictional ability to travel back and forth in time.

Well, I'd say to you, to all who argue this, to "think fourth demensionally..." 6000 years or 4.5 billion? Why not? What is a year? You can't really define a year, not when you talk about God's act of creation. If you really get into the first moments of the universe, you can't define what a second, day, month or year is - not at all, because those definitions depend on who you are and WHERE you are. Read on.

Back about 20 years ago, I was watching a physicist speak on "space-time", he was hard to understand, because I think of time as something that is fundamental. To me, a minute lasts the same amount of 'time' here on earth, in space, near the sun, traveling at the speed of light, etc. It simply cannot be anything more complicated than that. But this physicist spoke about time and how, if you travel REALLY fast, I mean REAL FAST, 95% of the speed of light - after you have traveled for an hour in your superfast space ship or other machine - we here on earth have experienced the passage of time much greater than you. To you, an hour has passed, to us, 3.2 hours have passed.

The physicist went on to explain just how fast the universe expanded at the very instant of "the big bang". If you could have stood on the material being thrown out (impossible but if.....) time would have gone by VERY quickly for you. BUT, as the physicist explained:

Imagine if you were a being who could exist outside of space-time. What would you see? I do not know, because we can't exist outside of space-time. (But I believe that God can.-PG) Anyway, imagine if you were a being who lived within space-time and you were watching this? Time dilation tells us that you would perceive the first fraction of a fraction of a millisecond of the universe's expansion as something that took a VERY long time! Remember, you are standing back watching this, time goes by very slowly for you, as compared to time going by for the material being thrown around.
​

Of course, it is impossible for any of us to experience any of this, it has already happened AND when it DID happen, the universe was expanding from a tiny center - there was no way ANYTHING could watch it - not anything PHYSICAL like us. But God is not physical, and He WAS watching, He was DIRECTING this. What we refer to as the "Big Bang", was God's speaking into existence all that we know, all of the universe. The big bang DID happen - when we study it, we study God's act of creation of the very universe.

So you see (I hope) what I mean when I say the universe could be 6000 years old AND 4.5 billion years old, at the same time. Because time itself is not something that we can hold or define or grasp completely. If you were there, it would seem to have all happened rather quickly. But if you were WATCHING IT, it would have taken EONS to happen. When Genesis speaks of the act of creation, just whose perspective is it talking about? When we take a simplistic view of the act of creation, we fool ourselves into that thinking that Edward spoke of in his post above: Man is so full of himself and prideful makes people want to be right, aha you're wrong and I'm right instead of considering maybe we're both right and just don't realize it.

Now, go back in this thread and read about how matter and energy are exchangeable. Read (I think I read this in this thread) about properties of light. James Burke (famous BBC reporter and researcher and long-time atheist) once spoke of the properties of light and was explaining some of the work of Theodoric of Freiberg. Burke had contempt for Christianity and made a remark referring to early Christian teachings of how "Light had to be the fundamental building block that God used to create the universe". Burke was, of course, being sarcastic -but if you read and read and read, you find that he actually, accidentally, hit on something. The properties of light ARE a fundamental building block of our universe. I believe that when God said, "Let there be light", He actually created light AND set out the rules that it works by.

Did God intend for us to discuss and debate this? I'm not sure - but I know He did not intend for us to ARGUE and FIGHT over it.

And one more thing, I have no issues with science trying to explain things without God being part of the discussion. I know many do, but I don't. Even the "great" atheist Neil DeGrasee Tyson has said it "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."

Pizza,

I think you have made an excellent attempt to get people not to read your post.

Take your last statement: 'Even the "great" atheist Neil DeGrasee Tyson has said it "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."'

To the contrary, Scripture affirms in Pslam 19:1-6 (NLT):

1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
3 They speak without a sound or word;
their voice is never heard.
4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,
and their words to all the world.

God has made a home in the heavens for the sun.
5 It bursts forth like a radiant bridegroom after his wedding.
It rejoices like a great athlete eager to run the race.
6 The sun rises at one end of the heavens
and follows its course to the other end.
Nothing can hide from its heat.

Oz

 

[Edward]

Can any of you suggest a book about all this- that is simple to read?

I get most of this from YouTube nowadays..and Scripture.

Have a look on YouTube for the double slit experiment. That's a good place to start.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can any of you suggest a book about all this- that is simple to read?

You can read it after I get done with it.

 

[Wrg1405]

View attachment 9891

 

[Wrg1405]

It's all Greek to me. But what I do know is:

ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως, δι᾽ αὑτοῦ ⸃ καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ⸃ ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς,

 

[Pizza]

Can any of you suggest a book about all this- that is simple to read?

I should write one! (No seriously, I should read and read and read then interview great minds of science and assemble it all myself. )

I came up with what I think by reading early Genesis, then listening to various physicists speak on cosmology and space-time, including Hawking, Dawkins and Einstein.

 

[Pizza]

Pizza,

I think you have made an excellent attempt to get people not to read your post.

Take your last statement: 'Even the "great" atheist Neil DeGrasee Tyson has said it "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."'

To the contrary, Scripture affirms in Pslam 19:1-6 (NLT):


Oz

Scripture affirms God's work, His authorship of all that is. But it does not tell us HOW He did it nor how it all works.

 

[JohnDB]

Hebrews 11:3

 

[OzSpen]

I should write one! (No seriously, I should read and read and read then interview great minds of science and assemble it all myself. )

I came up with what I think by reading early Genesis, then listening to various physicists speak on cosmology and space-time, including Hawking, Dawkins and Einstein.

Why don't you include some Christians who are scientists? A few days ago I chose to view this: 'God and Stephen Hawking: Do the Laws of Physics Make God Unnecessary?' by Prof. John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics, Oxford University. Available from the Discovery Institute at: http://www.discovery.org/v/2511.

I can give you a link or 2 to other Christians who are scientists (physicists, etc).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Scripture affirms God's work, His authorship of all that is. But it does not tell us HOW He did it nor how it all works.

Please tell me what the Hebrew, bara, means in Genesis 1:1 and you'll get some idea of the HOW of God's creative work.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's all Greek to me. But what I do know is:

ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως, δι᾽ αὑτοῦ ⸃ καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ⸃ ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς,

"th s brightness of glory and character of the hypostasis this, bearing either everything tῷ verb of force , thereby washing away of sins ⸃ poiisamenos ⸃ sat down dexiᾷ the Majesty on high ,"

Still sounds Greek to me.
I'll stick with this...

"3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high..." (Hebrews 1:3 NASB)

 

[Edward]

I should write one! (No seriously, I should read and read and read then interview great minds of science and assemble it all myself. )

I came up with what I think by reading early Genesis, then listening to various physicists speak on cosmology and space-time, including Hawking, Dawkins and Einstein.

Do you realize that Genesis 1:1 speaks of this also?

In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).

I like your idea about how both yec & old earth groups could both be correct. God does exist outside of the time domain, and we don't really know how that is, having never been outside of time.

I think you're right about it. When we do get outside of the time domain ourselves, we'll be able to understand how it works...and how we're both right of the different camps.

 

[jasonc]

The sun what day was it created and was it before light?

 

[Edward]

The sun what day was it created and was it before light?

I've wondered about that. It's easy to assume the first day, but Scripture also says that Jesus is the light of the world.

 

[jasonc]

I've wondered about that. It's easy to assume the first day, but Scripture also says that Jesus is the light of the world.

God would have to speak if that was the light Jesus was talking about.That's another thread .

 

[Pizza]

Why don't you include some Christians who are scientists? A few days ago I chose to view this: 'God and Stephen Hawking: Do the Laws of Physics Make God Unnecessary?' by Prof. John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics, Oxford University. Available from the Discovery Institute at: http://www.discovery.org/v/2511.

I can give you a link or 2 to other Christians who are scientists (physicists, etc).

Oz

Why should I? If you have a point to make, make it.

I was just taking the time to answer your question in the best effort I could make.

 

[OzSpen]

It's all Greek to me. But what I do know is:

ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως, δι᾽ αὑτοῦ ⸃ καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ⸃ ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς,

Wrg,

I don't know what you hope to achieve on an English speaking forum by quoting this Greek text from Hebrews 1:3 (ESV). I happen to read and teach NT Greek, but on a forum like this, it behooves you to provide a biblical reference and translation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Why should I? If you have a point to make, make it.

I was just taking the time to answer your question in the best effort I could make.

I've made my point but you don't seem to be listening.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God does exist outside of the time domain, and we don't really know how that is, having never been outside of time.

I think it's not so much about there being no time to God, but rather since he moves so much quicker than things on earth, time to Him passes by much quicker. That's what Einstein's theory of relativity is all about. He discovered that time is relative, not constant. Scientists up to that time had held time to be the constant of the universe (the one thing that never changes no matter where you're at and the thing which any and all things can be measured against). But he found out that the passage of time speeds up relative to something else that is traveling slower. Time is not the constant of the universe.

So, when the earth was being created the passage of time for God was relative to the speed by which he moves, while the passage of time for earth was relative to the slower speed by which we move. That means while time was ticking away for God in days during creation, time for earth was ticking away simultaneously in thousands of years. Time is not a universal constant. It passes by relative to how fast you are moving in relation to something else.

"8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." (2 Peter 3:8 NIV)