Question About Mary

[jaybo]

Thank you for your opinions but I disagree with them.
See my previous post.

Likewise, those are just your unScriptural opinions.

Sola scriptura.

 

[God Is My Judge]

b) She is not "ever virgin". Jesus had brothers. Are you claiming that they were also immaculately conceived?

Page 1.
You clearly exhibit indoctrination. Just as Nicodemus did not understand what it meant to be born again, you do not understand Ever Virgin. The reason I am sharing this stuff in this forum is because I am being allowed to. Whether the intentions are good concerning that, God will judge. Either way, whether you be those to the left hand of God, who He will say depart from Me, or be of His right hand, these words work upon you according to your design. If a vessel of wrath, then you will get furious, or a vessel of mercy- you will be greatly blessed. Which are you Jaybo? We will find out. Either way I have done the Lord's will.

Now, some might say "the Orthodox and Roman Catholic church do not stand by how you define all this, they teach it differently". No kidding! But I thank God they at least made a place for Mary in their hearts. "The greatest of these is love", all the rest is simply a blip in the radar.

The point is, they left for discussion, very engaging topics that seem to be fiery and exciting to discuss. And since the gospel is eternal, there is always room for improvement. Besides, with what is going on with the Shebna- Whore Hay Ber-Gog-lio (placed in power by Gog of Magog of the Syna-Gog-ue of satan), the Vatican is soon to be destroyed. Whore Hay, along with many clergy of different rank and laypersons of different rank, are going to be killed. A new name is going to be given to the Elect.

Ever Virgin concerning Mary goes like this.

Isaiah 7:
The Sign of Immanuel
…13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.…

She was a virgin when she conceived and birthed Christ. Moving forward. Because she was born of the imperishable seed and her soul magnifies the Lord, she is a virgin soul. Just as what was said to happen to her in
Genesis 3:

15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

This is FIRST about Mary before it can be about a collective group of people called Church. I have heard many synagogue of satan interps of this, which Protestants are all too proud to support. But clearly, Mary is the Woman in the prophecy. The enmity was the Holy Spirit placed between Mary and satan and Wisdom fully given her according to the fact that Christ is fully God and fully man. Wisdom accompanies the Word everywhere He goes. And according to Solomon and Sirach, the feminine spirit -wisdom, has always been referred to as sister, mother, bride. It is to Mary that Christ gave wisdom in fullness. It is apportioned from her cup to all in accordance with Christ's will. Not going to receive wisdom by disrespecting His mother.

Everything taught by the apostles she first agrees to in belief, at her yes. For all else which follows is because of her yes, to the Word of God. This brings us to the next phase of perpetual virginity- Ever virgin.
1 John 3:6
Children of God
…5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.…

Paul comments on such a state, that Mary was in, to the day of her Dormition and Assumption or transformation in a twinkling of an eye, at one of Christ's ascensions.
2 Corinthians 11:
2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…

Now are you going to say Mary was like Eve? I think not! What kind of virginity is Paul talking about? It can't be physical virginity, or else he would have never used marriage as symbol of Christ's love for His church. Not saying if one wants to remain untouched that its bad. But spiritual virginity is what Paul is speaking of.

So, we have 1. Physical virginity in conception and birth of Christ. He did come from a virgin womb.
2. Afterwhich, she being married fulfilled her marriage vows according to the Law of God and showed fidelity to God all her life as such, is a perpetual Virgin soul.
3. Brings us to her Assumption, where that mortal puts on immortality. Not taken or given into marriage at that resurrection but is like the angels. Hence, perpetual virginity. For once the mortal puts on immortality you are in a perpetual virginal state.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Sola scriptura.

If you only actually believed that.

 

[jaybo]

Page 1.
You clearly exhibit indoctrination. Just as Nicodemus did not understand what it meant to be born again, you do not understand Ever Virgin. The reason I am sharing this stuff in this forum is because I am being allowed to. Whether the intentions are good concerning that, God will judge. Either way, whether you be those to the left hand of God, who He will say depart from Me, or be of His right hand, these words work upon you according to your design. If a vessel of wrath, then you will get furious, or a vessel of mercy- you will be greatly blessed. Which are you Jaybo? We will find out. Either way I have done the Lord's will.

Now, some might say "the Orthodox and Roman Catholic church do not stand by how you define all this, they teach it differently". No kidding! But I thank God they at least made a place for Mary in their hearts. "The greatest of these is love", all the rest is simply a blip in the radar.

The point is, they left for discussion, very engaging topics that seem to be fiery and exciting to discuss. And since the gospel is eternal, there is always room for improvement. Besides, with what is going on with the Shebna- Whore Hay Ber-Gog-lio (placed in power by Gog of Magog of the Syna-Gog-ue of satan), the Vatican is soon to be destroyed. Whore Hay, along with many clergy of different rank and laypersons of different rank, are going to be killed. A new name is going to be given to the Elect.

Ever Virgin concerning Mary goes like this.

Isaiah 7:
The Sign of Immanuel
…13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.…

She was a virgin when she conceived and birthed Christ. Moving forward. Because she was born of the imperishable seed and her soul magnifies the Lord, she is a virgin soul. Just as what was said to happen to her in
Genesis 3:

15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

This is FIRST about Mary before it can be about a collective group of people called Church. I have heard many synagogue of satan interps of this, which Protestants are all too proud to support. But clearly, Mary is the Woman in the prophecy. The enmity was the Holy Spirit placed between Mary and satan and Wisdom fully given her according to the fact that Christ is fully God and fully man. Wisdom accompanies the Word everywhere He goes. And according to Solomon and Sirach, the feminine spirit -wisdom, has always been referred to as sister, mother, bride. It is to Mary that Christ gave wisdom in fullness. It is apportioned from her cup to all in accordance with Christ's will. Not going to receive wisdom by disrespecting His mother.

Everything taught by the apostles she first agrees to in belief, at her yes. For all else which follows is because of her yes, to the Word of God. This brings us to the next phase of perpetual virginity- Ever virgin.
1 John 3:6
Children of God
…5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.…

Paul comments on such a state, that Mary was in, to the day of her Dormition and Assumption or transformation in a twinkling of an eye, at one of Christ's ascensions.
2 Corinthians 11:
2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…

Now are you going to say Mary was like Eve? I think not! What kind of virginity is Paul talking about? It can't be physical virginity, or else he would have never used marriage as symbol of Christ's love for His church. Not saying if one wants to remain untouched that its bad. But spiritual virginity is what Paul is speaking of.

So, we have 1. Physical virginity in conception and birth of Christ. He did come from a virgin womb.
2. Afterwhich, she being married fulfilled her marriage vows according to the Law of God and showed fidelity to God all her life as such, is a perpetual Virgin soul.
3. Brings us to her Assumption, where that mortal puts on immortality. Not taken or given into marriage at that resurrection but is like the angels. Hence, perpetual virginity. For once the mortal puts on immortality you are in a perpetual virginal state.

I've read all this before in one form or another. Mary gave birth to Jesus -- and his brothers. The rest is just rationalization, making the Bible say what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I've read all this before in one form or another. Mary gave birth to Jesus -- and his brothers. The rest is just rationalization, making the Bible say what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Lol! Does 2+2=4? If given the equation only, does that mean the 4 I arrive to is not the sum of the parts? See now you just sound corny . I'm not just hopinged that 4 is the sum of its parts. And as I posted before, yes scripture supports Mary having other children. You seem to cling to that math equation and sum only. However, that you do only to have something you were taught and believe that the other denominations were not taught and don't believe. You are no different than other dividers. I'm just using reasoning skills- scripture alone guided by the Holy Spirit. I could see how that would elude you. You keep dropping Sola Scriptura, yet scripture doesn't come right out and say Sola Scriptura, but it does say that in equation. A doctrine is always the sum of the parts given. That is called being engaged. You take part in the kingdom of heaven. You are part of the building by building upon the foundation already laid. By way of the eternal gospel, whether given in equations or in exact sums, you formulate doctrines. 2+2 is always 4 and makes sense. Unfortunately, many are not equipped to formulate correct answers from the equations of God. Like you.

All you keep barking is Mary had other children, Mary had other children, do you have any other understanding? How about this, stick to what you know and try not to do algebra-'reunion of broken parts, bonesetting.

If you choose to be fractured, you will be cut off. We are in a time of removing the dividers of Christianity. I'm telling you, Christ will say bye, bye to you and put you on ignore at some point very soon. Get right or get lost-forever.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I've read all this before in one form or another. Mary gave birth to Jesus -- and his brothers. The rest is just rationalization, making the Bible say what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Here ya go, you gave this a thumbs up. seems you only like the math that suits you. Meaning you only embrace what you consider is a thumbing your noise at who you don't embrace. It is clear with that alone you are not for unity but division. And I'm sure in turn the opposing team against you will not accept the truth I put out there concerning Mary actually being married and having other sons and daughters, even though the scriptures alone are very clear. see where I am going with this?

She did have other children. There is no loss of translation concerning cousin and extended family with the OT, Jacob went to his COUSIN LABAN etc... In the NT it is clear, Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth.
Matthew 13:55-57
The Rejection at Nazareth
…55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.”…
The Catholic assertion again- that, scribes, at the time of translation didn't know the correct interpretation from Greek to Latin is absurd.

It' just this simple, obviously the people are not referring to "brethren" but to family. The names mentioned were not any of the apostles either, because none of them came from Jesus's hometown. They followed him there and witnessed Him being rejected, but they were from other towns. Names like James and Judas were common and almost every Jewish family had a boy named of those names.


The people of His hometown know His family, (Know used in its obvious context as to knowledge of.) Further proving the language of scripture is clear. The people of His town would not be speaking of His apostles, for they did not know
them as family (Kin), they accompanied Yeshua there. They were NOT from there. There is historical documentation which shows where each were from. And the thing that will be much to most surprise, is that
neither James the greater nor the Lesser are His brother James mentioned here, as many biblical scholars assert. Here is a historical run down of where the apostles were from.

1. James the Greater son of Zebedee and his brother 2.John
Bethsaida
3. James, the Lesser, son of Alphaeus/Place of birth
Galilee, Israel

Judas Iscariot (LOST his crown)

139:12.1 Judas Iscariot, the twelfth apostle, was chosen by Nathaniel. He was born in Kerioth, a small town
in southern Judea. When he was a lad, his parents moved to Jericho, where he lived and had been employed
in his father's various business enterprises until he became interested in the preaching and work of John the
Baptist. Judas's parents were Sadducees, and when their son joined John's disciples, they disowned him.

He would be replaced by:
Matthias (temporarily) only to be replaced by Saul of Tarsus forever
4. (Paul) From Tarsus .

5. Simon ,Peter :
From Bethsaida

6. Philip :
From Bethsaida.

7. Nathaniel:
From Cana
8. Matthew (Levi):
From Galilee

9. Thomas Didymus:
From Galilee.

10. Judas Alpheus
From Galilee.

11. Simon the zealot:
From Cana..

12. Andrew:
From Bethsaida
Therefore, by the names revealed in Christ’s hometown as brothers, we learn the answer. Not one of His apostles was from Nazareth . Nazareth is where Yeshua (Jesus) grew up for most of his childhood and adult life. How can any of the apostles be His brothers by birth when none were from Nazareth? So, clearly, the historical belief that the James mentioned in scripture as being James the brother of Christ, is not saying sibling but in that portion of scripture meaning brother as in brethren( united in spirit , not born of Mother Mary's flesh). I say to those who insist that this James mentioned here : Galatians 1:18-19 18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles-only James, the LORD's brother.

Aramaic Bible:
ܠܐܚܪܝܢ ܕܝܢ ܡܢ ܫܠܝܚܐ ܠܐ ܚܙܝܬ ܐܠܐ ܐܢ ܠܝܥܩܘܒ ܐܚܘܗܝ ܕܡܪܢ
19 But, another from The Shlikhe {The Sent Ones}, I saw none, except only Yaqub, {Jacob/James}, the brother of Maran {Our Lord}.

Read it with a pause, the writer is simply emphasizing the already stated position as a 'sent one'-"only James (pause- a nod of respect for position), the Lord's brother".

There is feeling and heart in the written word. I have to be right because where the two James' are from is known. And His brother was not an apostle concerning one of the twelve.
Clearly, brother here is speaking in a spiritual sense for all are brothers in Christ by anointing- it is through Christ that we are called children of God.

Point is both James' were born elsewhere, not in Nazareth.

1. James the Greater son of Zebedee and his brother 2.John
Bethsaida
3. James, the Lesser, son of Alphaeus/Place of birth
Galilee, Israel
Lastly, there is that Greek complication :The word apostle has two meanings: the broader meaning of a messenger and the narrower meaning of an early Christian apostle directly linked to Jesus. The more general meaning of the word is translated into Latin as missiō, and from this word we get missionary. The term only occurs once in the Septuagint.
Keep this in mind when reading scripture to properly understand when the writer says 'apostle' outside of the twelve. For there are only 12 apostles as in narrow meaning directly linked to Christ as 'sent ones' the rest are missio (missionaries) in the broader sense. In Aramaic, (which is the language Jesus spoke) the scriptures from that language are easier to understand.
Example: Acts 14:14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul found out about this, they tore their clothes and rushed into the crowd, shouting,
Aramaic Bible: ܒܪܢܒܐ ܕܝܢ ܘܦܘܠܘܣ ܟܕ ܫܡܥܘ ܣܕܩܘ ܢܚܬܝܗܘܢ ܘܫܘܪܘ ܢܦܩܘ ܠܗܘܢ ܠܘܬ ܐܟܠܘܣ ܘܩܥܝܢ ܗܘܘ
14 But, Bar-Naba {Barnabas} and Paulus {Paul}, when they had heard it, they tore their garments, and they leaped up, going out unto the crowd, and were crying out,
Barnabas is not one of the twelve apostles concerning the foundational walls in Rev.21
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations: And in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb,
not 14 not 15 or more but 12.

 

[Corn Pop]

I just want scriptual evidence Mary was ever virgin as some claim, but there is none. She was a virgin when she gave birth to her first born son, that is it.

Anything from there is just a theory and belief based on no scriptual facts and evidence.

If people want to believe it that's fine but there is nothing to back it up and there is nothing that makes Mary more special if she was ever virgin anyhow. Its not a sin for a woman to get married and have a baby with there husband and if they don't it makes them more Holy. God loves life. He is life.

Even as Paul said if someone wants to stay virgin that is good for them devoting there time to God, but also if someone wants to get married and have chldren that's also good and is not a sin. It doesn't matter as long as God comes first. Don't get distracted or manipulated and just stay on path and stay righteous in God's word and all is good.

 

[Mungo]

I just want scriptual evidence Mary was ever virgin as some claim, but there is none. She was a virgin when she gave birth to her first born son, that is it.

Anything from there is just a theory and belief based on no scriptual facts and evidence.

If people want to believe it that's fine but there is nothing to back it up and there is nothing that makes Mary more special if she was ever virgin anyhow. Its not a sin for a woman to get married and have a baby with there husband and if they don't it makes them more Holy. God loves life. He is life.

Even as Paul said if someone wants to stay virgin that is good for them devoting there time to God, but also if someone wants to get married and have chldren that's also good and is not a sin. It doesn't matter as long as God comes first. Don't get distracted or manipulated and just stay on path and stay righteous in God's word and all is good.

God Is My Judge has given scriptural evidence above.

I gave 6 arguments from scripture in the thread Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin.

But you probably won't go and look so I'll repost them here in the following posts.

 

[Mungo]

1. A vow of Virginity

The Annunciation
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favoured one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God.” Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38)

Let’s look at this carefully, especially the phrases I have emboldened.

1. Mary is married to Joseph. The translation of “betrothed” is poor. Jewish marriage of the time was in two stages. After the first stage they are married, but later (usually a year) the second stage occurred; the bride entered the bridegroom’s house and the marriage was consummated.

In a normal marriage, during the first stage, the bride was not just hoping or expecting the second stage but was committed to it. She was committed to sexual intercourse and would have the expectation (or at least hope) that it would be followed by a child.

2. The angel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future He does not say you have conceived but will conceive. He is pointing to the future but gives no timescale. This would normally be good news, especially a son, but would be assumed to follow on from the second stage of marriage.

3. But Mary asks a strange question. “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?” In normal circumstances this would a silly question, so this indicates that this is not a normal marriage; that she has no expectation of sexual relations with Joseph. Note that at this stage the angel has not told Mary she will conceive by the Holy Spirit not Joseph.

Her question therefore only makes sense if she intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

Note Mary says I have no relations with a man (present tense). But I contend she is referring to the future as well. The angel has focussed on the future and so Mary’s reply must address the future as well.

Take the example above: someone says you will die of lung cancer. You reply “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Obviously if I expect to start smoking I can expect the possibility of contracting lung cancer at some time in the future. My question of “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Only makes sense if I do not expect to start smoking in the future. The “I do not smoke” is therefore not only something for the present but looks to the future as well; it implies something about the continuance of my not smoking. So too with Mary. Her reply only makes sense if it implies she intends to continue not to have a sexual relationship.

This use of the present tense implying the future is used in other places in the New Testament.
Mt 26:18 I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.”

Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote "This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know" , could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present.

The Protoevangelium of James (not scriptural) tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin.

 

[Mungo]

2. Mary as Tabernacle & Ark
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (Lk 1:35)
The Greek word for overshadow (the power of the Most High will overshadow you) is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God’s holy presence.

Her womb is made a sacred vessel, a new Ark of the (new) Covenant.

The Shenikah cloud only rested above the Ark. How much more holy was the womb of Mary where God himself was present for nine months.

Her being ever-virgin speaks about the uniqueness of Christ.

The original Ark was made of wood plated with pure gold, representing the holiness of God. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. The high priest could only enter the Holy of Holies once a year.

Sacred vessels are not to be profaned (put to ordinary use). Daniel 5 describes what happens to those who profane sacred vessels – the king, Belshazzar, was slain that very night and his kingdom overthrown by the Medes and Persians.

When Uzzah touched the Ark he was struck dead (1Sam 6:6)

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God should not be profaned. The old Ark of the Covenant was sacred and could not be used for anything else. So too Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant would have been defiled by bearing another child in her womb.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

 

[Mungo]

3. Mary as Temple
In a typological sense Mary is also a Temple of God since she bore Christ who is the sacrifice.
Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. The LORD said to me: This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; (Ez 44:1,2).

Whilst Ezekial’s vision was for him a vision of the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem, it was also a prophecy applicable here. Mary’s womb is the gate by which God incarnate entered into our world and the entrance to her womb (the gate) must remain shut for the Lord, the God of Israel, had entered by it.

The early Fathers made these connections as they pondered on scripture and the revelation that had been passed on to them.
Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity."
(St. Ambrose of Milan, The Consecration of a Virgin and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary 391 AD)

Jesus, as God does not break the virginal seals: in such wise he exits the womb as He entered through the ear; thus He was born, as He was conceived: without passion He entered, without corruption He exited, according to the prophet Ezekiel who says: ’This gate will remain closed.’
(St. Proclus, Homily 1 on the Mother of God, 431 AD)

"It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it...’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this - ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth."
(St. Augustine of Hippo, De Annunt. Dom. Iii circa 430 AD)

“One calls her the closed Gate set at the East, that lets in the King with the doors shut tight at the East because the true light that enlightens every man coming into the world, went forth from the womb, as from a royal bride-chamber.”
(Hesychius, Sermon 5, 5th century)

 

[Mungo]

4. Mary as Bride and Church
When Mary said “yes” to God she entered into full communion with God, body and soul. She becomes “one flesh” with God because she bears God in her womb, just as man and wife become “one flesh”. Therefore to give herself to another would be a form of adultery.
Isaiah prophesied (Is 62:4-5)
No more shall men call you “Forsaken,”
or your land “Desolate,”
But you shall be called “My Delight,”
and your land “Espoused.”
For the Lord delights in you,
and makes your land his spouse.
As a young man marries a virgin,
your Builder shall marry you;
And as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride
so shall your God rejoice in you.
Here we can see references to Mary’s virginal motherhood, her mystical marriage to God who is at the same time her Father, her Son and her Spouse.

5. One Son
An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.

• saac (Gen 18:10)
• Samson (Judges 13:4)
• John the Baptist (Lk 1:13)

If these were figures of the Messiah, it would be illogical that they would be only sons, and the one represented by them were not like them.

6. No Mention of Other Children
Finally when Luke tells us about the family in Nazareth, he only mentions three persons, not more. (Lk 2:41-52) When Jesus was lost in the temple, Joseph and Mary did not return with other sons. If one were lost, surely they would not leave the others (if there were any) at risk of losing them as well.

There is no mention of any other children being born to Mary.

 

[Mungo]

It's also worth pointing out that the earkly "reformers" believed in Mary's ever-viginity
To not do so is a modern aberration.

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

 

[WIP]

He said, she said, he said again, she said again, he said a third time, she said a third time, he said a fourth time, she said a fourth time, he said a fifth time, she said a fifth time, he said a sixth time, she said a sixth time,..... is it possible to get to the end of this?

 

[rstrats]

He said, she said, he said again, she said again, he said a third time, she said a third time, he said a fourth time, she said a fourth time, he said a fifth time, she said a fifth time, he said a sixth time, she said a sixth time,..... is it possible to get to the end of this?

Your OP asked if it is Catholic teaching that Mary is divine? The answer was given a few times in posts 2 thru 5. You could have closed the topic at that time.

 

[Mungo]

He said, she said, he said again, she said again, he said a third time, she said a third time, he said a fourth time, she said a fourth time, he said a fifth time, she said a fifth time, he said a sixth time, she said a sixth time,..... is it possible to get to the end of this?

Probably not.

 

[Corn Pop]

I have no conclusion of Mary being ever virgin. Maybe she was maybe she wasnt so I don't know and I don't think it's important, but I will say I do love Gregorian chants and Catholic mass sounds, that's like intense spiritual music. I could sit in a old Catholic church and listen to it all day. Its beautiful and peaceful.

 

[jaybo]

God Is My Judge has given scriptural evidence above.

I gave 6 arguments from scripture in the thread Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin.

But you probably won't go and look so I'll repost them here in the following posts.

Oy vey! Why? You can post them a million times but that doesn't make them valid!

NET translator's note about Luke 8:19, " The issue of whether Jesus had brothers (siblings) has had a long history in the church. Epiphanius, in the 4th century, argued that Mary was a perpetual virgin and had no offspring other than Jesus. Others argued that these brothers were really cousins. Nothing in the text suggests any of this. See also John 7:3." [my emphasis]

Why should anyone believe you?

 

[WIP]

Your OP asked if it is Catholic teaching that Mary is divine? The answer was given a few times in posts 2 thru 5. You could have closed the topic at that time.

I did get the Catholic answer, which is what I was seeking, but I have not come to agreement with that answer. Endless repetitive debate doesn't help but in fact has just the opposite effect.

No, I could not close the thread. I don't have the authority either as a site staff member or as a courtesy to the forum overseer, Mungo.

 

[Mungo]

Oy vey! Why? You can post them a million times but that doesn't make them valid!

NET translator's note about Luke 8:19, " The issue of whether Jesus had brothers (siblings) has had a long history in the church. Epiphanius, in the 4th century, argued that Mary was a perpetual virgin and had no offspring other than Jesus. Others argued that these brothers were really cousins. Nothing in the text suggests any of this. See also John 7:3." [my emphasis]

Why should anyone believe you?

As I thought. You cannot answer the points I made so you just evade them.