Chopper
Member
We are getting very close to arguing and a debate. Your words....
is very near debate, IMO.You are mistaken
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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is very near debate, IMO.You are mistaken
Actually, there is nothing to debate.We are getting very close to arguing and a debate. Your words.... is very near debate, IMO.
BY the way, I do not in any manner question your sincerity or faith.We are getting very close to arguing and a debate. Your words.... is very near debate, IMO.
BY the way, I do not in any manner question your sincerity or faith.
Just wanted to make that clear.
We might understand that Christology was "developed" over the course of nearly 500 years by some of the greatest minds on the planet, after the resurrection. It's obviously not easy subject matter.
Part of the problem some might have trouble understanding that Jesus was a 'real' human being, like us, is because He had no sin, and most automatically associate the 'human nature' as a sin nature. How human could a human be if they were sinless? Part of the "error" of the early debaters to this matter was the thought that if WE worked hard enough, and made the right decisions, we TOO can be sinless. That was an error of the early churches in their freewill postures.
Yes, Jesus was like us in every respect except for one very LARGE differentiating factor, that being WITHOUT SIN. I'd consider that difference to be massive comparative to everyone else prior or since.
It's problematic for any of us to even conceive of such a state, because we have never "experienced" what that is like. IF we even claim to "have," present tense have, no sin we are not even in truth. 1 John 1:8. And we are liars if we say we haven't sinned.
So, yeah, there are some ropes around this matter from our perspectives. How human can a sinless human really be? I'd guess as human as a sinless human could be.
Don't really see any other options. The fact that God Himself showed up in a "prepared human body, Fathered Directly by God Himself" can be considered nothing less than a GREAT MYSTERY, as the scriptures propose:
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Although I appreciate the men who deliberated this matter for nearly 500 years they did cover their tracks with the fact that it is a great mystery, details notwithstanding. I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a woman, just like any human being is born, was raised as a human being, lived with human beings, WAS a human being. There is no question about that. IF we say Jesus was only Divine there are other problems that can arise from that sight.
It's very problematic without Jesus being a real human being, to claim that He really suffered, sacrificed, died, etc. I mean really, can a Divine Only Status partake of any of that? I don't think so.
We are told this about God. That God Is A Spirit. And that God Is Invisible. Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, John 4:24. How then can an Invisible Spirit suffer, sacrifice and die? Does that cover the state/status of Jesus? No. Jesus was human, was visible, had a body, sacrificed, suffered and died a very real physical death. No "Invisible Spirit," non human Divine Being could do any of that. All of this REQUIRED A PREPARED HUMAN BODY that was HUMAN.
So, saying Jesus was a human but with no human nature brings other problems. Did Jesus need to eat? Go to the bathroom? Work to feed Himself etc etc. Yes, He was also subject to do things HUMANS are required to do in a human body in order to live/survive.
That would appear to at least require the human nature to do so. Why would A Divine Invisible Spirit only need to do any of that? Being a human being comes with an obligation to do human things that requires the obligations of the human nature to do so. I'm pretty sure Jesus, as a human being, had to learn a lot of things about being human, just like we do. We have no record of Jesus hopping out of the womb and turning into an instant sage, able to speak and perform miracles at the snap of His Finger.
I can only say that the distinction between being a human sinner and a human without sin is an exceptionally wide gulf for us to really fathom. Being "like" us in every way except for that is a rather large exception.
You have to question anyone trying to force fit God into a box of their own making to start with. I certainly don't have a sufficient box for that purpose, NOR do I want/desire one.I think seeing that, " you can only recieve a nature from a father " would answer alot of questions.
I would agree there has been some wonderful minds shed light on scripture. I see also "where brilliance ends" revelation begins.
We might understand that Christology was "developed" over the course of nearly 500 years by some of the greatest minds on the planet, after the resurrection. It's obviously not easy subject matter.
Part of the problem some might have trouble understanding that Jesus was a 'real' human being, like us, is because He had no sin, and most automatically associate the 'human nature' as a sin nature. How human could a human be if they were sinless? Part of the "error" of the early debaters to this matter was the thought that if WE worked hard enough, and made the right decisions, we TOO can be sinless. That was an error of the early churches in their freewill postures.
Yes, Jesus was like us in every respect except for one very LARGE differentiating factor, that being WITHOUT SIN. I'd consider that difference to be massive comparative to everyone else prior or since.
It's problematic for any of us to even conceive of such a state, because we have never "experienced" what that is like. IF we even claim to "have," present tense have, no sin we are not even in truth. 1 John 1:8. And we are liars if we say we haven't sinned.
So, yeah, there are some ropes around this matter from our perspectives. How human can a sinless human really be? I'd guess as human as a sinless human could be.
Don't really see any other options. The fact that God Himself showed up in a "prepared human body, Fathered Directly by God Himself" can be considered nothing less than a GREAT MYSTERY, as the scriptures propose:
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Although I appreciate the men who deliberated this matter for nearly 500 years they did cover their tracks with the fact that it is a great mystery, details notwithstanding. I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a woman, just like any human being is born, was raised as a human being, lived with human beings, WAS a human being. There is no question about that. IF we say Jesus was only Divine there are other problems that can arise from that sight.
It's very problematic without Jesus being a real human being, to claim that He really suffered, sacrificed, died, etc. I mean really, can a Divine Only Status partake of any of that? I don't think so.
We are told this about God. That God Is A Spirit. And that God Is Invisible. Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, John 4:24. How then can an Invisible Spirit suffer, sacrifice and die? Does that cover the state/status of Jesus? No. Jesus was human, was visible, had a body, sacrificed, suffered and died a very real physical death. No "Invisible Spirit," non human Divine Being could do any of that. All of this REQUIRED A PREPARED HUMAN BODY that was HUMAN.
So, saying Jesus was a human but with no human nature brings other problems. Did Jesus need to eat? Go to the bathroom? Work to feed Himself etc etc. Yes, He was also subject to do things HUMANS are required to do in a human body in order to live/survive.
That would appear to at least require the human nature to do so. Why would A Divine Invisible Spirit only need to do any of that? Being a human being comes with an obligation to do human things that requires the obligations of the human nature to do so. I'm pretty sure Jesus, as a human being, had to learn a lot of things about being human, just like we do. We have no record of Jesus hopping out of the womb and turning into an instant sage, able to speak and perform miracles at the snap of His Finger.
I can only say that the distinction between being a human sinner and a human without sin is an exceptionally wide gulf for us to really fathom. Being "like" us in every way except for that is a rather large exception.
I just can't bring my heart/mind into believing that Christ Jesus, the very God had a human nature alongside His Divine Nature. Being God in the flesh, He didn't need it, and I don't see in the Scriptures any statement that He had a "man nature"
Can a divine nature be tempted, in the same way and in all things, the way we are?
how can Jesus be tempted just like us when His divine nature makes Him not like us?Hi there my old friend Deb. The answer is yes, it can be tempted but since a divine nature cannot sin, it is not like ours.
For Edward and others, this is my position on whether or not Jesus had two natures.
Colossians 2:9 "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." And Colossians 1:19 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell." When Jesus was FULL of deity and FULL of God, there is no room for anything human other than a body. Lets look at Christ's body....Colossians 1:22 "He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him." And Hebrews 10:5 "Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me." And Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
1. Colossians 2:9 There simply is no room for a human nature in Christ Jesus since He is FULL of deity.
2. Colossians 1:19 Again, fullness is fullness!
3. Colossians 1:22 "We are reconciled thru His body of flesh." which He obtained thru the Spirit thru Mary. Please note that there is no mention of a human nature it is solely His body of flesh!
This next verse may possibly be my most important qualifying statement of Scripture against a human nature in Christ Jesus. As I was considering my position, I believe that the Spirit of Christ Jesus gave me this next verse.
4. Hebrews 10:5 "A body have you prepared for me." I don't see a human nature here.
5. Hebrews 10:10 Offering of His Body, no human nature here.
Case closed.
We are [if we continue] participants in a thing that I like to call, "The Unfolding Revelation of God."
How well did the Israelites know Him? Not enough to trust Him, not really. They saw the mountain tremble. They experienced the riveting fear of His Holiness. How well did cousin John (the Baptist) know him? He knew him even from the womb and leaped! Jesus said John was "The Greatest [Prophet of the Old Agreement b/w God and man]."
But did John live to see the sacrifice? Did he witness the resurrection? He was 'greatest' by way of proximity to the coming of the Messiah. But did he know what even the least in the Kingdom these days 'know' and experience so intimately? We are greater than John, and for the same reason. Jesus is coming soon. Could the baptism of John *unto repentance only* save? We know from the letter to Ephesus that it could not.
And yet, we are called to be and become more: We become his tool. The net of the great Fisher of men. And even as we are joined into His purpose, so also are we changed. We become more than our Father's tool. We are partnered in Christ and become His friend! But then... it dawns upon us. We are His child! No longer lost and alone.
Marvel not that flesh became the tent of the Divine but rather marvel at what is being found even now, even in you, Chopper. The Spirit of God. Yes, convicted and concluded by the Host High, sinners all. Brought to our knees at the cross. That we may be redeemed. That His Spirit Holy is found in us, in YOU. Holiness in you. Holiness in flesh? Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Holiness is utterly apart --forever and utterly-- apart from all sin. It's mercy I tell ya. God-Trust (faith) and mercy. But you already know.
Found in us because of the trust that Jesus placed in his Father, kept as his preference even unto death. Because the man Jesus kept his eye on his Father without wavering. Then he allowed himself to be emptied. The ultimate pouring out. We are the beneficiaries of the 'conversation' that flowed between Father and Son. Because Jesus did all that was given him to do. And then he died anyway. What could be denied him? Nothing. Because here we see a higher justice. Heb 12:2 For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of ...
We are the why and I am speaking now of the mystery. Speaking of the wedding feast of the Lamb of God. It is the revelation of The Christ as spoken to The Beloved (John on Patmos) by his Spirit. So also, we have not yet known but shall know... even as we are known.
"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8 This subjection is not complete. It is begun, it is carrying on, but it is not finished --"But now we see not yet all things put under him." We have yet to cast our crowns at HIS feet. And as you know, He is not yet done providing our crowns.
Ephesians 3:19
19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the the fullness of God.
yw chopper. i fall short of that fullness, vary far actually, but i do think it is possible, i think its one of the things Jesus came to show us.Thank you my new friend jaybird. O to be filled with the "fullness of God" today, would be a very great accomplishment of the Holy Spirit and our surrender to Him. I hope you have a very blessed day jaybird. I already see in you, good things, and I'm looking forward to what's in your heart to share with us.
how can Jesus be tempted just like us when His divine nature makes Him not like us?
I don't think anyone here believes Jesus had a human 'sin' nature, just a human nature. The propensity to sin comes to us from our father Adam. Jesus had no sin, Adam was not His father.Now, what is a human nature that many believe was in Christ Jesus? It is a sin nature passed to us from Adam. Jesus had no sin nature and that's why He did not sin.