[_ Old Earth _] Question for evolutionist...

[warhorse]

What purpose would love or other emotions serve in an evolved world, or why does it then exist.

 

[jasoncran]

What purpose would love or other emotions serve in an evolved world, or why does it then exist.

that is adressed in primarily in the fledgling field of evolutionary psychology and its assumed via that we got our social nature from the early primata from whence we came.

i dont buy that but that is where you need to look.

 

[warhorse]

that is adressed in primarily in the fledgling field of evolutionary psychology and its assumed via that we got our social nature from the early primata from whence we came.

i dont buy that but that is where you need to look.

Wouldnt that be sort of a circular argument. i mean the basis of evolution is that creatures evolve to there needs. but emotions like love, and joy serve no natural purpose.

 

[jasoncran]

Wouldnt that be sort of a circular argument. i mean the basis of evolution is that creatures evolve to there needs. but emotions like love, and joyserve no natural purpose.

hmm good question.when i do have the chance i will ask the right people. without sounding too unintellgent i wont say much more

and i do have idea that your supposition is wrong.emotions do have a purpose for mating and aslo the idea that social animals need to work together and they do have rules.its just how that happened by ns and happenstance under natural laws is the part i dont buy.

 

[warhorse]

hmm good question.when i do have the chance i will ask the right people. without sounding too unintellgent i wont say much more

and i do have idea that your supposition is wrong.emotions do have a purpose for mating and aslo the idea that social animals need to work together and they do have rules.its just how that happened by ns and happenstance under natural laws is the part i dont buy.

Exactly in the created world we live in emotional reactions to events, or even guiding events makes some sense. But in an evolved world emotions would seem to stand in the way of a live and let die, its all about me world.

 

[Deavonreye]

Wouldnt that be sort of a circular argument. i mean the basis of evolution is that creatures evolve to there needs. but emotions like love, and joy serve no natural purpose.

:

There are brain chemicals that account for "love", . . . even "joy". "Love" [using the most layman of terms and examples] is a part of the brain that is necessary for a bond, then procreation [not with all species, of course. Some require more than just "mounting"]. There are many monogomous [or nearly so] species. There are species that experience a "joy" as well. What further's a species is benefiscial. These "bonding chemicals" are very purposeful.

Social species must work together. There is no room for a "me" there. So cooperation comes into play as we advance.

 

[jasoncran]

:

There are brain chemicals that account for "love", . . . even "joy". "Love" [using the most layman of terms and examples] is a part of the brain that is necessary for a bond, then procreation [not with all species, of course. Some require more than just "mounting"]. There are many monogomous [or nearly so] species. There are species that experience a "joy" as well. What further's a species is benefiscial. These "bonding chemicals" are very purposeful.

Social species must work together. There is no room for a "me" there. So cooperation comes into play as we advance.

theres no way to actually document from a point a to point b on this progress. its just assumed that it is so.i asked on the origins of society of man and how evo psychology states that it came to be. culture came just by sheer luck. ugh says caveman to himself, i just managed to survive terrible winter. me think rock help me. and so on

 

[rzr]

theres no way to actually document from a point a to point b on this progress. its just assumed that it is so.i asked on the origins of society of man and how evo psychology states that it came to be. culture came just by sheer luck. ugh says caveman to himself, i just managed to survive terrible winter. me think rock help me. and so on

Evoultion is real and it is a process that exists on many levels.

The process of love:
1.Lust - the hormones responsible for that is testosterone and oestrogen

2. Attraction- dopamine, adrenaline and serotonin are the transmitters responsible

3. Attachment--oxytocin and vasopression

Sorry guys, but one of my undergrad degrees is a B.S. in Biochemisty. Just thought I would inform you about these "brain chemicals"

Attraction and attachment has allowed man to be on top of what Darwin coined "survival of the fittest". It is also what has separated us from the rest of the animals...Only Lust is needed to propagate....The attraction and attachment aspects of love has given rise to culture--if not, then we would be no more than a pack of dogs or a pride of lions.

Culture is not by luck or chance.Simply put It is the compilation of learned customs, beliefs , knowledge, values, artifacts and symbols that are constantly communicated among a set of people who share a common way of life passed down generation after generation. Cultures are always changing "evolving" with new ideas, new beliefs, new technologies etc.....

But back to the OP question...Love serves as mans glue for a world that is for evermore evolving...Its not done yet

 

[jasoncran]

Evoultion is real and it is a process that exists on many levels.

The process of love:
1.Lust - the hormones responsible for that is testosterone and oestrogen

2. Attraction- dopamine, adrenaline and serotonin are the transmitters responsible

3. Attachment--oxytocin and vasopression

Sorry guys, but one of my undergrad degrees is a B.S. in Biochemisty. Just thought I would inform you about these "brain chemicals"

Attraction and attachment has allowed man to be on top of what Darwin coined "survival of the fittest". It is also what has separated us from the rest of the animals...Only Lust is needed to propagate....The attraction and attachment aspects of love has given rise to culture--if not, then we would be no more than a pack of dogs or a pride of lions.

Culture is not by luck or chance.Simply put It is the compilation of learned customs, beliefs , knowledge, values, artifacts and symbols that are constantly communicated among a set of people who share a common way of life passed down generation after generation. Cultures are always changing "evolving" with new ideas, new beliefs, new technologies etc.....

But back to the OP question...Love serves as mans glue for a world that is for evermore evolving...Its not done yet

ok? let me ask you this why do bother with God? and what makes some brain with just chemicals that just happen to work in a brain that evolved form new thoughts and this done not by God(god cant be in this natural selection or its not evolution!)

so when the first group of primates elvolved we cant observe and record and study them.

so why does one have to have a "purpose" to survive? food water and shelter and reproduction is all one needs. by some sheer luck men have lived this long.


learned behavior and has goals and thus a purpose. contrary to natural selection that doesnt. purpose cant come from something that has no purpose.

 

[rzr]

ok? let me ask you this why do bother with God? and what makes some brain with just chemicals that just happen to work in a brain that evolved form new thoughts and this done not by God(god cant be in this natural selection or its not evolution!)

so when the first group of primates elvolved we cant observe and record and study them.

so why does one have to have a "purpose" to survive? food water and shelter and reproduction is all one needs. by some sheer luck men have lived this long.


learned behavior and has goals and thus a purpose. contrary to natural selection that doesnt. purpose cant come from something that has no purpose.

One does not have to bother with God. It is ones choice to do so. One does not have to have a purpose to survive and again it is by choice. Why is it not possible that God orchestrated his creation by way of natural selection and evolution?...Did God create a Wolf and a poodle? Or did he only create the Wolf and the poodle evolved from the wolf? We all know that the common dog came from man domesticating and breading the wolf to yield the desired traits. Did God create one land mass and then did it divide into different continents?. Japan is now eight feet closer to the U.S after the tsunami, Did God create it that way? The tsunami shifted the earths axis 4", Did God create it that way? . Our Earth and all life is not static. It is always changing (evolving) remaining in motion at all times. Mans culture is a consequence of his evolution...

 

[jasoncran]

One does not have to bother with God. It is ones choice to do so. One does not have to have a purpose to survive and again it is by choice. Why is it not possible that God orchestrated his creation by way of natural selection and evolution?...Did God create a Wolf and a poodle? Or did he only create the Wolf and the poodle evolved from the wolf? We all know that the common dog came from man domesticating and breading the wolf to yield the desired traits. Did God create one land mass and then did it divide into different continents?. Japan is now eight feet closer to the U.S after the tsunami, Did God create it that way? The tsunami shifted the earths axis 4", Did God create it that way? . Our Earth and all life is not static. It is always changing (evolving) remaining in motion at all times. Mans culture is a consequence of his evolution...

again, something that has no purpose give purpose to something.

case in point if you have faith in that, build me a mega computer dont program it just hook power and let it sit, will it program itself? that in essence is what you want me to believe. that somehow the first h.erectus or earlier started a culture simply because their brain had enough folds. you can't ever see them in life or study them just speculate based on similiar species.

when you can actually find a living h.erectus and or missing link and observe them in action then you have a case.

 

[rzr]

again, something that has no purpose give purpose to something.

case in point if you have faith in that, build me a mega computer dont program it just hook power and let it sit, will it program itself? that in essence is what you want me to believe. that somehow the first h.erectus or earlier started a culture simply because their brain had enough folds. you can't ever see them in life or study them just speculate based on similiar species.

when you can actually find a living h.erectus and or missing link and observe them in action then you have a case.

I am not real sure I am understanding where you are coming from or that you are fully understanding me....

Are you saying that evolution, as understood by science, can't be because of God?

Are you saying that natural selection and evolution is a fantasy?

Are you saying that you cant have both God and natural selection?

Are you saying that God is the only purpose?

How do you reason on how the different groups of people came to be ,,Asian, African, European etc...????????? I am sorry but you make no sense to me...A mega computer? A mega computer is a NON living object, it is not dynamic like life. It may evolve into a bucket of rusty parts But if God decided, He could write a code and program it to evolve and think for itself....maybe the code would be similar to how He programmed this world in which we live....God tells us He created! God did not tell us how He created, but if we look hard enough He gives us clues on the code of life...

 

[jasoncran]

I am not real sure I am understanding where you are coming from or that you are fully understanding me....

Are you saying that evolution, as understood by science, can't be because of God?

Are you saying that natural selection and evolution is a fantasy?

Are you saying that you cant have both God and natural selection?

Are you saying that God is the only purpose?

How do you reason on how the different groups of people came to be ,,Asian, African, European etc...????????? I am sorry but you make no sense to me...A mega computer? A mega computer is a NON living object, it is not dynamic like life. It may evolve into a bucket of rusty parts But if God decided, He could write a code and program it to evolve and think for itself....maybe the code would be similar to how He programmed this world in which we live....God tells us He created! God did not tell us how He created, but if we look hard enough He gives us clues on the code of life...

first off why arent you a calvinist? god decided to kill those that didnt sin as they didnt have soul to sin with? we inherent the earth.

and so you dont think that somewhere in the universe that ai cant elvolve? what limits you to say that life cant be from ai or something of the sort? where in the bible doesnt it mention life only on earth? and in human form? not that i believe in ets but for argument

none life doesnt elvolve really what is the hypothesis that isnt proven on abiogenesis chemical elvolution so then its only organic life that can elvolve?

so adam and eve could die before sinning? and eat meat? why then did god put that the animals and men where all herbivores? why did god tell noah to eat meat and if he would be already doing so? what about in revalation where it said no more death? sickness or sorrow?

and what about the statement that earth shall not produce fruit without the sweat of the brow from adam or birth pains as a curse for eve. that should be already the case.

in whose nature are we created? we are more then just a soul. we have a triune nature flesh,mind and spirit. all three we are in his image a spirit such as an angel isnt in Gods image. we have more glory when we were in adam and he without sin then all the angels!!!!!!!!




re: what makes you think that our dna isnt that complicated? we are using randomn mutation generators to prove(support) evolution!

 

[Green Man]

Good evening everyone[smile].
Jasoncran, theology aside, evolution[as we know it]works via the process of Natural Selection/genetic drift, so if an organism cannot reproduce, then it cannot evolve...naturally speaking. Although an inorganic life form[Were an android?]may be able to 'evolve' in it's thinking/actions/behavior, and perhaps even complicate it's physical form, I don't think that those forms of personal change/inner growth would quality as evolution, as there is no breeding and passing on of genetic material to offspring. It would have to be something really unique and strange.["Life as we don't know it"? Why not believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life? It'd be an awful waste of space if this tiny twirling speck of space dust that we live on was the only planet in the whoooooole Universe to contain any life.].
Then again,...perhaps I have simply misunderstood you.
I too, was somewhat confused by your mention of Homo erectus. I say this because I didn't wish to simply jump to possibly incorrect conclusions about the point you may have been trying to make.

 

[jasoncran]

Good evening everyone[smile].
Jasoncran, theology aside, evolution[as we know it]works via the process of Natural Selection/genetic drift, so if an organism cannot reproduce, then it cannot evolve...naturally speaking. Although an inorganic life form[Were an android?]may be able to 'evolve' in it's thinking/actions/behavior, and perhaps even complicate it's physical form, I don't think that those forms of personal change/inner growth would quality as evolution, as there is no breeding and passing on of genetic material to offspring. It would have to be something really unique and strange.["Life as we don't know it"? Why not believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life? It'd be an awful waste of space if this tiny twirling speck of space dust that we live on was the only planet in the whoooooole Universe to contain any life.].
Then again,...perhaps I have simply misunderstood you.
I too, was somewhat confused by your mention of Homo erectus. I say this because I didn't wish to simply jump to possibly incorrect conclusions about the point you may have been trying to make.

because just because an organ evolves what is it first thoughts? we dont know and will never know.i dont really care to know. what if said species is like the goauld the wraithe. they see us a food or slaves.

where does the idea of the first protoculture originate? why did we have society in the first place ,and what were the first moral rules and who or what decided wrong? evolution psychology hasnt answered that to my knowledge.

why build the pyramids, why language? after all as rzr stated its not for surivival? its not rocket science. you cant tell me that we went from grunts or other hand gestures to these things of today by chance alone? someone had to come up with the idea of morals and through trail and error we just got lucky.

ONE CANT RULE OUT NATURAL SELECTION WHEN IT COMES TO SOCIETY AND HOW WE MADE IT THIS FAR.why is murder wrong and rape etc and lying etc. who was the first to decide that?

 

[Deavonreye]

It may not have been something that was "decided on". Does anything that comes natural/instinctive happen because the lifeform decides to? Why does my sister's little dog grab up that toy and shake it with his head? He didn't learn that.

What is beneficial becomes a passable trait. It could take countless generations, but eventually it could be a trait that seems to be "learned".

 

[jasoncran]

It may not have been something that was "decided on". Does anything that comes natural/instinctive happen because the lifeform decides to? Why does my sister's little dog grab up that toy and shake it with his head? He didn't learn that.

What is beneficial becomes a passable trait. It could take countless generations, but eventually it could be a trait that seems to be "learned".

ok. but i dont buy that as well stealing. why then is stealing bad after all its a learned trait isnt it? morality implies choice and one can choose.

it if its bad trait and its tolerated given a long of time it would aslo be passed on. ns doesnt care. thus devolution and traits lost.

thus at some point some wanted to steal or murder but lets see.
a possibility here.

Can Your Genes Make You Murder? : NPR

 

[Green Man]

Good evening, again[smile].
Thank you for your prompt reply, although I must admit some confusion over some of the things you said. It is odd....you seem...less articulated that I remember. Are you very tired? If so, then I shall be happy to continue this discussion sometime tomorrow evening[?].
What are the "goauld" and the "wraithe"?
Some of your questions sound more as if they pertain to the concept of "Social Darwinism", which is not the same thing as evolution, which only deals with the physical/genetic aspects of life forms. I look forward to continuing our conversation, but as the hour grows late, I shall return here tomorrow evening[smile].

 

[Deavonreye]

Well, in the animal world, there really isn't such thing as "murder" or "stealing". However, when groups form a society, there must be laws set up to benefit the society as a whole. Murder would take away a possibly irreplacable member, causing the whole to suffer.

 

[jasoncran]

Well, in the animal world, there really isn't such thing as "murder" or "stealing". However, when groups form a society, there must be laws set up to benefit the society as a whole. Murder would take away a possibly irreplacable member, causing the whole to suffer.

not if one says this is ok and controls it. ie culling.

again so the fact that we somehow survived and die off is the way we get morals. nature that has no purpose gives us wisdom, a concept that has no brains or care gives you morals.

men are really lucky that we havent killed ourselves off and you know it. that near extenction thing that the genetic history shows. what nearly killed us?