question for OSAS believers

[shad]

I always wondered why OSAS always say that people who disagree with their doctrine believe in a "work based faith".

Jesus tells His followers to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind" He also says to "love your neighbor as yourself". We cannot love God and Jesus with all our might unless we are committed to Jesus. There is a lot of work involved in loving God and Jesus. That doesn't mean we EARN our salvation.
And it's much better than telling others NOT to do any work and encourage laziness.

Why don't OSAS believers just encourage each other and others to be faithful and loyal to Jesus until the end?

 

[Vic C.]

Shad, I believe in perseverance of the Saints. It has sometimes been labeled OSAS, for simplicity's sake, though the doctrine is more systematic than that. Another misconception is that we do nothing but are stilled saved. The real disagreement is to whom we attribute our good works. We attribute it to God and because we are doing God's work, it's not hard at all. Our good works are a result of our salvation and not of ourselves. They glorify God, not Man. This is why a nonbeliever who may do good and be charitable can still miss out on salvation. If just doing good was good enough, then Jesus died for nothing.

Of course we encourage. Because of the weight put on God's sovereignty, we rely heavily on God and HIS will and encourage others to do the same.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Prayer, it shows ones submission and obedience to God and through prayer, we avoid temptation. We don't pray of our own abilities, we rely on the Holy Spirit to instruct and guide us in prayer.

Faith. Yes, we must be faithful. Sometimes though, one's faith may waiver. Is that cause to lose salvation? No, it isn't. It's not our faith anyway. It's the faithfulness of Jesus, who watches over His flock and the promise of God, who said HIS Son would not lose or cast out one soul that was given to Him. Jesus would leave the entire flock to save even one of His sheep, should they stray.

Many people don't know this, but shepherds back in the day, would deal with sheep that constantly strayed by breaking one of their legs and carrying the sheep if he must.

How much more are we worth to God?

If you want to understand Perseverance of the Saints, this is better than anything I could offer on my own.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/Pers ... Saints.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html

 

[shad]

It seems that you are making doctrines more complicated than it actually is. This is not doing anything but being a stumblingblock to weak and new believers. Take a look at so many never ending threads you guys are arguing about. It is just ridiculous. I am not OSAS believer and my faith is Jesus-centered and not work-based faith. I strive to be obedient to Jesus because Jesus says so. It is that simple. It is Jesus who judges who is saved or not, not any doctrine or anyone else.

 

[XTruth]

Faith. Yes, we must be faithful. Sometimes though, one's faith may waiver. Is that cause to lose salvation? No, it isn't. It's not our faith anyway. It's the faithfulness of Jesus, who watches over His flock and the promise of God, who said HIS Son would not lose or cast out one soul that was given to Him. Jesus would leave the entire flock to save even one of His sheep, should they stray.

"It's not our faith anyway." ...verse reference?????
"who said HIS Son would not lose or cast out one soul that was given to Him"...verse reference?????

 

[Vic C.]

"It's not our faith anyway." ...verse reference?????
"who said HIS Son would not lose or cast out one soul that was given to Him"...verse reference?????

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified....

... Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
__________________________________________________________________________

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out....

... John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Listen, I didn't come into this topic to play scripture chess and I'm not making any doctrine complicated. I just wanted to express my concerns over the many misconceptions of Perseverance of the Saints. Putting our faith and trust in a sovereign God is a fundamental belief and in no way is it a stumbling block for anyone.

Good night guys. It's late here in NJ. Keep reading and studying and please read the links I posted.

 

[shad]

Let's not start another OSAS doctrine debate. All I am saying is that OSAS is creating so much confusion to new and weak believers.

I am just asking you guys why do you do that? What is the purpose of this doctrine?

 

[Timf]

OSAS is a true Biblical doctrine. The difficulty comes when we try to apply it. We want to be able to measure others and determine if they are saved. The concern of many is what is called "easy believeism" (that a person will think they are saved and really are not saved). This is a legitimate concern. The Bible exhorts us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

Some take their concern that others may be deceived about their salvation to the extreme that they define hurdles that one must overcome to "prove" their salvation such as "have you made Jesus Lord of your life" or "have you conquered sin in your life". While this approach may be well intentioned, it often leads in the same direction as the Pharisees.

I can tell you that there is assurance of salvation,. I just can't assure you that "you" are saved (I can't see into your heart). As a result, I can only tell you what the Bible says, that you can have assurance (1 John) and that you have to examine yourself.

 

[XTruth]

OSAS is a true Biblical doctrine. The difficulty comes when we try to apply it. We want to be able to measure others and determine if they are saved. The concern of many is what is called "easy believeism" (that a person will think they are saved and really are not saved). This is a legitimate concern. The Bible exhorts us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

So how is one saved? And what are they saved from? What makes us need to be saved?

Some take their concern that others may be deceived about their salvation to the extreme that they define hurdles that one must overcome to "prove" their salvation such as "have you made Jesus Lord of your life" or "have you conquered sin in your life". While this approach may be well intentioned, it often leads in the same direction as the Pharisees.

You are confused as to what the Pharisees believed. Did they accept Jesus to make them clean and then go on to obeying His commandments and sinning no more like He said to do? Doing what Jesus commands is not being like the Pharisees, or trying to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be justified, which was given only for the Jews .

I can tell you that there is assurance of salvation,. I just can't assure you that "you" are saved (I can't see into your heart). As a result, I can only tell you what the Bible says, that you can have assurance (1 John) and that you have to examine yourself.

1 John destroys everything you just said. I'd appreciate it if you went to the eternal security thread to state your case. Cause 1 Jn, 2 Jn, 3 Jn, John, and Revelation (all from the hand of John) all prove w/o question that salvation can be lost. Also, us believers have to examine ourselves to see if we are being obedient to the Spirit and not to sin or the flesh; it's not to examine ourselves to see if we really believe what we believe. W/o obedience to righteousness and sinlessness, no one will see the Lord.

 

[shad]

OSAS is a true Biblical doctrine. The difficulty comes when we try to apply it. We want to be able to measure others and determine if they are saved. The concern of many is what is called "easy believeism" (that a person will think they are saved and really are not saved). This is a legitimate concern. The Bible exhorts us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

If they are saved they are saved, period. Why do you confuse so many new and weak believers?

Some take their concern that others may be deceived about their salvation to the extreme that they define hurdles that one must overcome to "prove" their salvation such as "have you made Jesus Lord of your life" or "have you conquered sin in your life". While this approach may be well intentioned, it often leads in the same direction as the Pharisees.

I have seen many Christians who are trying to be faithful and obedient to Jesus. It is obvious but it seems that you guys are trying to squash their faithfulness with your doctrine. You are working against Jesus. The Scripture says if you turn people from sinning your reward will be great. His followers should encourage everyone to be faithful to Him, not the other way around. There is nothing pharisee about it. It seems OSAS is hypocritical with your doctrine. Pharisees were hypocrites, that's what Jesus warned about them.

I can tell you that there is assurance of salvation,. I just can't assure you that "you" are saved (I can't see into your heart). As a result, I can only tell you what the Bible says, that you can have assurance (1 John) and that you have to examine yourself.

Assurance is if you are faithful to Jesus until the end, you will be saved. Faithfulness to Jesus is the assurance, not any doctrine.

 

[Joe67]

The issue being struggled with on this thread is the issue of Esau and Jacob.

All professed Christians I know, think of themselves as being like Jacob rather than Esau. But they don't enjoy the "supplanter" status. They generally think of themselves as Israel, the overcomer, though they are conscious of shortcomings in their life, so they are uncertain where they stand in this facet of their fellowship in Jesus.

God put twins in the womb of Rebekah to teach us about the two facets of the gospel. In the New Testament there are two testimonies of faith, both of God, both fulfilling his purpose. A clue to this mystery is found in the event where God put it into the heart of Paul to shave his head and take the vow for seven days, at James request.

Back to Esau. At first glance it appears that Esau is totally rejected by God. Further reading of the testimony of God through the later prophets tells a fuller picture.

Some keys. Jacob and Esau were reconciled after the Jabbok event for Jacob. Together they buried their father (old man), after his death. The priesthood still belonged to Jacob and Esau lived in his mountain fortress. Esau had now broken the bonds of Jacob. He now was free from hating Jacob. They were at peace though separate in ministry.

Conditionalism and assurance are the twins in the womb of the gospel (child of the free woman).
Let them bury their dead father together. Let them be at peace. The gospel times are finished.
Now comes the dividing of time, when no man shall work. The sun will not give her light. The moon will be turned to blood. The stars will fall. There will be famine for the hearing of the word of the Lord(hearing is not teaching through education). Man's testimony is finished, now they will all know the Lord (through the disasters that are happening by the arm of the Lord).

Jer 31:34
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; KJV

Heb 8:11
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. KJV

Ezek 7:4
4'For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the LORD!' NASU

The prophecy of Ezekiel has many testimonies concerning "you will know that I am the Lord."

Knowing the Lord is the discipline of the Father, and this cannot be taught by man. It is the work of the arm of the Lord.

Phil 3:10
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. KJV

Joe

 

[Cornelius]

The issue being struggled with on this thread is the issue of Esau and Jacob.

All professed Christians I know, think of themselves as being like Jacob rather than Esau. But they don't enjoy the "supplanter" status. They generally think of themselves as Israel, the overcomer, though they are conscious of shortcomings in their life, so they are uncertain where they stand in this facet of their fellowship in Jesus.

God put twins in the womb of Rebekah to teach us about the two facets of the gospel. In the New Testament there are two testimonies of faith, both of God, both fulfilling his purpose. A clue to this mystery is found in the event where God put it into the heart of Paul to shave his head and take the vow for seven days, at James request.

Back to Esau. At first glance it appears that Esau is totally rejected by God. Further reading of the testimony of God through the later prophets tells a fuller picture.

Some keys. Jacob and Esau were reconciled after the Jabbok event for Jacob. Together they buried their father (old man), after his death. The priesthood still belonged to Jacob and Esau lived in his mountain fortress. Esau had now broken the bonds of Jacob. He now was free from hating Jacob. They were at peace though separate in ministry.

Conditionalism and assurance are the twins in the womb of the gospel (child of the free woman).
Let them bury their dead father together. Let them be at peace. The gospel times are finished.
Now comes the dividing of time, when no man shall work. The sun will not give her light. The moon will be turned to blood. The stars will fall. There will be famine for the hearing of the word of the Lord(hearing is not teaching through education). Man's testimony is finished, now they will all know the Lord (through the disasters that are happening by the arm of the Lord).

Jer 31:34
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; KJV

Heb 8:11
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. KJV

Ezek 7:4
4'For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the LORD!' NASU

The prophecy of Ezekiel has many testimonies concerning "you will know that I am the Lord."

Knowing the Lord is the discipline of the Father, and this cannot be taught by man. It is the work of the arm of the Lord.

Phil 3:10
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. KJV

Joe

I think this is a good post. I pray people will read it slowly and with care.

This issue is all over the church, because it is really not understood.(Its also on most Christian forums ) In perspective, we see that maybe the issue is maybe not so much conditionalism and assurance , as it is the effort to allow a place for the "tares". This is a difficult subject, because the Bible teaches they are with us, and as such we see them as "Christian"


People find it difficult to give a true definition of a "real" Christian. Ask and then be prepared to get the stock answers, but few come with something that all can relate to, because of this issue.

Maybe conditionalism causes assurance.For some it does not, but for some, meeting the conditions like faith, death to self through taking up your cross, being in Christ (The Word) , etc. causes assurance, because indeed the Bible tells us that there is entrance freely into the Kingdom for such.If indeed we are walking in 2Peter 1 we are told :2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
2Pe 1:11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
So there are the conditions and surely the assurance also mentioned in one chapter.

So, indeed the twins must meet.And as you say, in these days, the theory will stop, because we have entered into the time, where this will be walked out , by the people of God.Those who know Him, will meet the conditions and thus be assured.

So two groups are found within one. Wheat and Tares. They look alike and they almost sound alike too. One is in confusion, and the other is not. Its sad, but its real, God told us this would be so. Its all grace that allows some to be wheat.

Maybe I am not making too much sense, its late here in SA and I am off to bed. Blessings to you all


in Christ
C

 

[shad]

What is your point Joe?

 

[Solo]

If they are saved they are saved, period.

Exactly!

 

[Cornelius]

If they are saved they are saved, period.

Exactly!

That would have been so nice if that was true.

Fact is that only after you have run the race and endured , you are saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice it is not past tense...........its something in the future.

 

[shad]

If they are saved they are saved, period.

Exactly!

Then why do you keep informing the world with your doctrine? C, is right, if your are not running the race you have no chance been saved.

BTW, you took my comment out of context. I admit that my comment was not accurate. What I meant was Jesus is the Judge, not any doctrine.

 

[francisdesales]

Exactly!

That would have been so nice if that was true.

Fact is that only after you have run the race and endured , you are saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice it is not past tense...........its something in the future.

I get the feeling that you and solo are speaking of "two" different definitions of salvation. It appears you (Cornelius) are speaking of eternal salvation when we die - whether we will be judged and allowed (our hope) to enter the Kingdom - and Solo appears to be speaking of that moment in the past when we first accept Christ and are saved from sin, perhaps refering to a time 20 years ago.

Solo, unfortunately, is presuming that if one was saved 20 years ago, then one WILL be saved, irrefutably, upon one's subsequent death and judgment. While he is correct on one thing - we ARE saved and released from the slavery of sin, he is incorrect in that it doesn't follow that we will REMAIN saved and free from the slavery of sin - as evidenced by many Scriptures that speak of falling away. Returning to a life of sin is NOT freedom from the slavery of sin - and thus, we are not saved from sin anymore.

Alcoholics who give up drinking have been freed from the slavery of drinking - UNLESS - they begin to drink again. It would be ludicrous to say that because one had stopped drinking and returned, that they are STILL free from the slavery of drink...! :crazy

Same with sin. A person living in sin is not free from sin! :amen

This is not rocket science here...

Regards

 

[Solo]

If they are saved they are saved, period.

Exactly!

Then why do you keep informing the world with your doctrine? C, is right, if your are not running the race you have no chance been saved.

BTW, you took my comment out of context. I admit that my comment was not accurate. What I meant was Jesus is the Judge, not any doctrine.

If you are not born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit you are not running the race, you only think you are. Those who are born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The Scriptures are very clear that the born again, born from above, born of God new creature is sealed by the Holy Spirit until redemption of the entire being, changed flesh and all. No where in the entire Scripture is one lost who has been born again; only the flesh has been destroyed, not the born of God new creature.

Jesus' doctrine is accurate, and those who are in Jesus Christ through their new birth are no longer condemned, EVER! Read the Scriptures.

 

[Solo]

Exactly!

That would have been so nice if that was true.

Fact is that only after you have run the race and endured , you are saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice it is not past tense...........its something in the future.

I get the feeling that you and solo are speaking of "two" different definitions of salvation. It appears you (Cornelius) are speaking of eternal salvation when we die - whether we will be judged and allowed (our hope) to enter the Kingdom - and Solo appears to be speaking of that moment in the past when we first accept Christ and are saved from sin, perhaps refering to a time 20 years ago.

Solo, unfortunately, is presuming that if one was saved 20 years ago, then one WILL be saved, irrefutably, upon one's subsequent death and judgment. While he is correct on one thing - we ARE saved and released from the slavery of sin, he is incorrect in that it doesn't follow that we will REMAIN saved and free from the slavery of sin - as evidenced by many Scriptures that speak of falling away. Returning to a life of sin is NOT freedom from the slavery of sin - and thus, we are not saved from sin anymore.

Alcoholics who give up drinking have been freed from the slavery of drinking - UNLESS - they begin to drink again. It would be ludicrous to say that because one had stopped drinking and returned, that they are STILL free from the slavery of drink...! :crazy

Same with sin. A person living in sin is not free from sin! :amen

This is not rocket science here...

Regards

Those who reject the belief that Jesus Christ has paid the entire sin debt do not believe in the works of Jesus Christ, but only believe in their own ability to keep God's righteous law. This is the same teaching brought about by the Judaizers that Paul wrote the Galatians about.

O foolish "Christians", who hath bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified?

Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law, or by hearing the Word of God through faith?

Are you so foolish? First having begun in the Spirit, and afterward are you made perfect by the flesh?

Have you suffered so many things in vain, if it is still vain?

Does the Spirit minister to you and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing of faith?

Just as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, so to that they which are of faith, are the children of Abraham.

The Scriptures, foreseeing that God would justify sinners through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying that in him will all nations be blessed.

So then, they which are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. It is written, "Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Therefore, no one is justified by the law in the sight of God! It is very evident that "The just shall live by faith."

And the law is not of faith: but, The one that does them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. It is written, "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree."

Therefore, the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Brothers and sisters, I speak after the manner of men; If it were only a man's covenant, and if it is confirmed, no man can erase or add to it. How much more if it is God's covenant to man?

God's promises were made to Abraham and his offspring. He did not say to "many offspring," but to "one offspring," and that "offspring" is Christ Jesus.

This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Then what purpose does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the "offspring" should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? No! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But the scripture has concluded that all under sin, but that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterward be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the point of being born again, have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ Jesus died for ALL of our sins, for who can be forgiven of any sin unless payment is made by someone else. No one is capable of paying for their own sins by any means, confession or penance. Sin has been done away with for all those who have been born again, born from above, born of God, and are not under the law but under faith.

 

[francisdesales]

Those who reject the belief that Jesus Christ has paid the entire sin debt do not believe in the works of Jesus Christ, but only believe in their own ability to keep God's righteous law. This is the same teaching brought about by the Judaizers that Paul wrote the Galatians about.

It is not a matter of "rejecting the belief". It is a matter of not LIVING the belief...

Those living in sin do not abide in Christ. They are NOT saved from sin AS they continue to be enslaved by sin. Merely saying "I went to AA meetings, so I can drink all I want, I cannot become an alcoholic again" is as futile as what you have been proposing...

Nowhere have I denied the teachings that we are offered salvation by grace, by God's mercy, not our works... Your posting of Galatians is a non-sequitar.

A person living under the slavery of sin is NOT SAVED FROM SIN!

It is a denial of reality.

Christ Jesus died for ALL of our sins, for who can be forgiven of any sin unless payment is made by someone else. No one is capable of paying for their own sins by any means, confession or penance. Sin has been done away with for all those who have been born again, born from above, born of God, and are not under the law but under faith.

Christ died for ALL of EVERYONE'S sins. Not just those born from above. God desires ALL men are saved, and OFFERS that to ALL men, by His Grace and Mercy, not by randomly selecting some for perdition and others for eternal life.

Regards

 

[shad]

If you are not born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit you are not running the race, you only think you are.

If your are not running the race for Jesus, you are not born again. so simple.