question for OSAS believers

[Imagican]

Danielle,

My statement was NOT directed at YOU I assure you. I was simply making a statement concerning how MANY seem hell bent and intent on TELLING others about WHAT'S going to happen to THEM when they Die. How they KNOW that THEY are saved and KNOW how God is going to judge THEM.
You don't need to apologize to me. I didn't even notice that you had posted anything of this sort. So, please accept what I offer here: This is NOT directed AT ANY INDIVIDUAL. It was directed at a GROUP of people.

I am NOT here to condemn ANYONE. I DON'T KNOW who is 'saved' or who is NOT. That is NOT my purpose in Christ. But I AM convicted to offer TRUTH as has been offered to ME. Judge it for what it's worth. If it complies to scripture and has, perhaps, a bit of ADDED WISDOM, then accept it as such. If not, just ignore it.

I have NEVER read ANYWHERE in scripture that we have a 'free ride' so far as Salvation is concerned. YES, it IS a 'GIFT', (the death of Christ for our sins), but one MUST accept a gift in order to RECEIVE it. And it is NOT a 'gift WITHOUT conditions'. As a matter of FACT, the Bible itself is pretty much an INSTRUCTION GUIDE as to HOW we are ABLE to receive this 'gift'. To deny this is to deny MOST of what has been offered in Word.

OSAS, ISAS, these are NOTHING other than men MOSTLY selling BOOKS offering what itching ears desire to hear. For who WOULDN'T want to THINK that ONCE one SAYS that they ACCEPT Christ, then they are BOUND to forgiveness NO MATTER WHAT. I would LOVE to believe in something SO SIMPLE. The only problem with this: FOLKS, YOU WILL BE JUDGED ONE DAY. And it would REALLY be sad to face judgement and ONLY be able to offer: "Well, that's what SOMEONE TOLD ME". I don't think that this is going to be a very valid defense.

We are commanded to FOLLOW. NOT to 'create' doctrine that fits OUR DESIRES. One CANNOT work their way to heaven. But THROUGH WORKS we can SURELY BE what Christ has TOLD us to be. Can we DO IT ON OUR OWN? Of COURSE NOT. It took me over thirty years to become that sinner that I was, (and still am). To even THINK that I could 'snap my fingers' and ALL that I WAS would be GONE is rediculous. For it is such REDICULOUSNESS that leaves MANY to a continuation of CONFUSION rather than being ABLE to truly COME TO GOD through His Son. It takes TIME for us to change. With the power of God NOTHING Is impossible and it's the same with us. He CAN help us to BE what we are meant to be. But it takes OUR efforts as well. For he who is unwilling to work, DOESN'T even deserve to EAT. So HOW do you reacon one too lazy to follow is deserving of eternal LIFE?

What many confuse with 'works' is NOT works. For FAITH is NOT a 'work'. Neither is LOVE. But to LEARN these things we MUST follow the truth as has been offered. We MUST be diligent in our study and prayer. We MUST resist the devil and temptation. If you don't think that these THINGS MUST BE DONE, then you haven't learned the FIRST THING about BEING a 'follower of Christ'. And if you don't think that these THINGS take EFFORT, then you would probably fair BETTER follow such a 'religion' that teaches OSAS or IF saved, always saved.

We have been assured of NOTHING without the 'gift FIRST' being accepted. And even then we are COMMANDED to follow the TRUTH. And IN THAT TRUTH are MANY MANY MANY things that we have been TOLD THAT WE MUST DO. Don't let ANYONE 'trick' you into an unnatural belief that this is NOT SO. Just READ and study and the truth is apparent.

God punishes those that He loves. Hmmm.........................

I am NOT here to convince ANYONE that 'I' am right and they are wrong. What I would do is inflence others to READ and PRAY so that they don't NEED to be right or wrong so far as 'men' are concerned. For it is a 'greater truth' that we are to seek and NOT that 'layed down by the hands of men'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[shad]

However, the Bible does speak clearly of election. And the elect are so by unmerited favor. This is a concept that's foreign to the carnal mind. What we do know, is that God will not reject anyone who sincerely cries out to Him for salvation. In other words, when one believes on the name of Jesus, He will not say I won't save you because you are not of the elect. Even still, there is a pre-destinated elect.

Elect are faithful ones who will be chosen by Jesus. They will reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

 

[lovely]

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

I don't think that there is anything presumptuous, or prideful, in considering ourselves children of God, if the Spirit of God is in us it's simply the truth. After we are born again, we can have confidence in that day because we are His, and because of Him we walk as He walked, and we abide in Him and purify ourselves as He is pure, we will not be ashamed or fearful when He returns. Faith is for now, to walk as sons now, assured in the belief that He is faithful and will give us eternal life. Fear and trembling is not walking as if I don't know if He will save me or not, it's walking as one who has the knowledge and awarness of who God is and that His commands must be followed at all cost, because of who He is. The foolish man will not walk with fear and trembling because he has no knowledge of who God is or what it means to please Him.

Concerning the OSAS doctrine, or even the doctrine of being able to loose your salvation, they are both used as stumblingblocks among many, because this is how satan works. He is a deceiver, and he steals the Word when he can out of the hearts of men. I have seen people in both camps who are only hearers of the Word. OSAS people live any way they like, but cling to the sinner's prayer they said as a child...there is not fruit because there is no Holy Spirit. I have also seen those who believe you can loose your salvation go in and out of church backslidden one week, and praying through the next as if this was acceptable behavior. This is not one who has a broken an contrite spirit.

Those who are sons, hear, do, walk in repentance, bear fruit, overcome, heed God's warnings, walk with fear and trembling, but are also sealed with the Holy Spirit as sons. If we are born again, then we love Him and we will walk as He walked...we won't live a life in the flesh with false assurance, and we won't backslide in and out as if we were doing the work ourselves like a man unstable in his ways.

Just some thoughts on this thread. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

It seems that your over all reasoning is that if we are born again, we are saved? Is that what you are saying?

Jesus said that those who are born again, born from above will enter the Kingdom of God.

Read John 3 prayerfully with God's guidance and He will show you the truth.

• And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

 

[XTruth]

Solo,

It seems that your over all reasoning is that if we are born again, we are saved? Is that what you are saying?

Jesus said that those who are born again, born from above will enter the Kingdom of God.

Read John 3 prayerfully with God's guidance and He will show you the truth.

• And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

Read two more verses later...
Jn.8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
"In Christ"= no sin, all past sins forgiven (Rom.3:25).
"In sin"= with unforgiven sin on your account, what you are owed is death (Eze.18:24-26; Rom.6:23; 8:12-13)

Rom.6:16
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom.8:13
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are these born again, born from above new creatures that have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit? Will they enter the Kingdom of God?
1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The promise and the guarantee is the Holy Spirit, not eternal salvation.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

It seems that your over all reasoning is that if we are born again, we are saved? Is that what you are saying?

Jesus said that those who are born again, born from above will enter the Kingdom of God.

Read John 3 prayerfully with God's guidance and He will show you the truth.

• And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

Read two more verses later...
Jn.8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Keep reading and you will find that these were not believers born again.

• 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:31-51

"In Christ"= no sin, all past sins forgiven (Rom.3:25).

The sins of the past are forgiven, and the born again believer does not sin as he/she is born of God and cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) The flesh sins and will continue to sin until it is changed on the day of redemption when it is resurrected to an incorruptible, immortal, glorious body (1 Corinthians 15:51-57) just as Jesus Christ has (Philippians 3:21), and at that time the new body will be joined to the new creature. It is amazing that an individual will bet his whole theology on Romans 3:25.

"In sin"= with unforgiven sin on your account, what you are owed is death (Eze.18:24-26; Rom.6:23; 8:12-13)

Misinterpretation of Scripture again.

• 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

God's gift to those to believe in Jesus Christ is eternal life; while those who do not believe must pay the wages of their sin which is death. Those who are born again have eternal life and are free from sin.

• 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:22

One must read the entire counsel of God in context or be led astray into false doctrines of devils. Christ Jesus is in those who are born again, therefore the body is dead because of sin. Those who have Christ Jesus living inside them will be raised up by His Spirit for He will quicken the mortal body. Those who are born again and continue to walk in sin will become physically dead but will be saved in the day of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15). For we are children of God, and God will not cast any of His children away; no, He will seal them and secure them by Himself.

• 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by F31 his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Romans 8:10-19

Rom.6:16
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom.8:13
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are these born again, born from above new creatures that have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit? Will they enter the Kingdom of God?
1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The promise and the guarantee is the Holy Spirit, not eternal salvation.

Many verses that are plucked out of context and have absolutely the opposite meaning suggested when the entire Scripture is read as indicated in the Romans 8 Scripture previously rendered above.

When one has a physical perspective, the word die and destroy relates as a lose salvation scripture, especially when one is predisposed of the conditional salvation dogma; however, the whole counsel of God's Word depicts a greater love for those whom Christ Jesus died than a less than adequate means of salvation dependent upon one's own abilities. Sad but many, many, many believer the same way you do, not giving Jesus Christ the credit of enduring and gaining salvation to all those who believe.

All those who are in the midst of believing a conditional salvation doctrine will have their eyes opened to the truth of God's Salvation of grace through faith minus man's works should they prayerfully seek the truth by meditating on the Word of God for understanding and wisdom; and not for proving that they are right in their dogma!

God's Word be true and every man a liar.

 

[XTruth]

"In Christ"= no sin, all past sins forgiven (Rom.3:25).

The sins of the past are forgiven, and the born again believer does not sin as he/she is born of God and cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) The flesh sins and will continue to sin until it is changed on the day of redemption when it is resurrected to an incorruptible, immortal, glorious body (1 Corinthians 15:51-57) just as Jesus Christ has (Philippians 3:21), and at that time the new body will be joined to the new creature. It is amazing that an individual will bet his whole theology on Romans 3:25.

"In sin"= with unforgiven sin on your account, what you are owed is death (Eze.18:24-26; Rom.6:23; 8:12-13)

Misinterpretation of Scripture again.

• 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

God's gift to those to believe in Jesus Christ is eternal life; while those who do not believe must pay the wages of their sin which is death. Those who are born again have eternal life and are free from sin.

What you actually know for really really sure, is that I 've used more Scripture than you've ever been able to reply to. I base the doctrine of God and of Christ on the ENTIRE Word. Hey, why don't you use John 3 one more time???
2 Jn.9-10
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Even the demons believe Solo, even the demons believe.

I work early, I'll address your post of false doctrine tomorrow so that it won't be a snare to any one.

Until then, why would God destroy those who are His children if the OSAS is true??
1 Cor.3:16-17
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Hosea 4:6-9
6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
8They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.
9And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

What is out of context!

 

[Solo]

There are those that trust in Jesus Christ and His Salvation; and there are others that hope that they have been good enough to be saved.

Believe in Christ Jesus and you can be saved, sealed, and delivered by God Himself.

It is sad to see that there are those who do not spend enough time listening to God's Word instead of twisting it to mean what they determine it must be.

Soooo Sad!

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Our HOPE is that ALL will 'come to Christ' AND BE SAVED. Our FAITH is that WE BELIEVE that Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS. Our DUTY is to follow IN CHRIST. And above all, our CALLING is 'in love'.

Will ALL be saved? According to scripture NO. Is this SAD? Imagine, if it pains you and I, how MUCH MORE SO, Our Savior.

I hope that NOTHING that I have offered in any of my posts has offended ANYONE individually. That has not been my purpose.

But we have The Word. It was offered as a 'guide' so that we MAY be able to learn and receive that which has been offered. In this Word, there is MUCH that offers that we WON'T KNOW ANYTHING so far as our destiny UNTIL we are judged. Anyone that is able to SAY what they KNOW concerning this issue is only fooling themselves.

YES, IF you follow AS INSTRUCTED, there is promise. But who among us is such a diligent follower. Perhaps there are members here that are 'different' than those that 'people' that I KNOW. But I can assure you that those that I KNOW that 'say' that they KNOW of their fate certainly aren't living FOR Christ. They SAY they are but their deeds point in an entirely DIFFERENT direction. But if you ASK them, they will tell you QUICK that they KNOW that they are 'saved'. Self delusion does NOT a 'truth make'.

We are to run the race like we mean to WIN the prize. A prize is 'given' but HAS to be EARNED. And a 'gift' may CERTAINLY be given WITH CONDITIONS, (most are), and I believe that we have MUCH evidence that 'SALVATION' is JUST SUCH A GIFT. For, if NOT, ALL WOULD be Saved.

I believe that to BELIEVE one is worthy of the gift, then they have simply began to 'fool themselves' into believing that they are MORE righteous than 'others'. For the 'gift' was NOT given to those that DON'T NEED IT, but to those that DO. And those that DO, plainly recognize THEIR NEED.

If OSAS is a FACT, then please address this: What REASON would we have to serve in 'fear and trembling' IF 'Once we accept Christ into our hearts, we CANNOT LOSE that which has been given'? What PURPOSE would 'fear and trembling' serve IF we CANNOT LOSE what has been offered.

And, if OSAS is FACT, then WHO were all the words that contradict this doctrine WRITTEN TO? From my understanding, EVERY SINGLE WORD of the Bible was written FOR those that LOVE God. For those that don't couldn't even BEGIN to understand them.

So, while I would LOVE to believe that 'being saved' was as simple as some would have it, if this were truth, then MOST of what has been offered in Word is NOT. i choose to believe that the entirety of scriptue exists for a 'purpose'. That it was offered so that we MAY receive the 'gift' that has been offered. So that we may gain the truth, wisdom, faith, hope, and LOVE that we NEED in order to be WORTHY of the 'gift that has been offered'.

I'm not really BIG on 'clubs', 'groups', 'labels', etc........... For when we begin to JOIN in such, we tend to separate ourselves FROM others in a way that is USUALLY not condusive to OUR PURPOSE. For, IF we join a group that BELIEVES it is EXCLUSIVE, at this point we LOOSE that connection with others that may WELL BE OUR PUSPOSE. We begin to look at others as LESS than WE are.

Not here on the forums for here we simply hash words. But what I have personally experienced in the community that believes OSAS, these BELIEVE that they are exclusive members of a 'special group'. That it's basically US and THEM. This is NOT what Christ taught. Regardless of us being told to separate ourselves from this world, we were NEVER told that we are 'special people' that are to separate themselves from their obligation TO their neighbors.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I think we all know that one doesn't need to clean up their act before coming to Christ Matthew 11:28. I often hear things like a believer with an alcohol problem couldn't be saved. And if they were truly saved, they would quit drinking immediately. I don't know what some people think. I guess they think that if they received Christ at the time they had an alcohol addiction, they would magically quit. Realistically, the only reason you and I are not lying in an alley with a bottle of wine in our hands, is by the sheer no holds barred grace and mercy of God. We've been spared the addiction. Any sin we don't commit can be attributed to God's mercy. King Abimelech, although perhaps not a man of faith per Genesis 20:11, thought he was justified in what he didn't do. However, it was God that prevented him from sinning.

God prevents man fron sinning? So much for free will - and God desiring all men to be saved ...

God gives us the ABILITY to obey Him. God enables us to resist temptation. The final choice to do so, or not, depends on our free will. Without God, we can do nothing good. But that doesn't mean that God does everything.

I agree with you above, that when God saves us, it doesn't mean we instantaneously become all holy and drop all addictions. God gives us that ABILITY. We now have a new principle, a new guide within us. But as any guide, we can ignore Him and do our own thing, remaining in addiction and sin.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

There are those that trust in Jesus Christ and His Salvation; and there are others that hope that they have been good enough to be saved.

Believe in Christ Jesus and you can be saved, sealed, and delivered by God Himself.

It is sad to see that there are those who do not spend enough time listening to God's Word instead of twisting it to mean what they determine it must be.

Soooo Sad!

Back at you...

 

[Solo]

There are those that trust in Jesus Christ and His Salvation; and there are others that hope that they have been good enough to be saved.

Believe in Christ Jesus and you can be saved, sealed, and delivered by God Himself.

It is sad to see that there are those who do not spend enough time listening to God's Word instead of twisting it to mean what they determine it must be.

Soooo Sad!

Back at you...

I was born again on October 19, 1983 at twenty-eight years of age. I became a new person on that date.

 

[Solo]

If OSAS is a FACT, then please address this: What REASON would we have to serve in 'fear and trembling' IF 'Once we accept Christ into our hearts, we CANNOT LOSE that which has been given'? What PURPOSE would 'fear and trembling' serve IF we CANNOT LOSE what has been offered.

John Gil says it much more better than I as I have extended myself over the top throughout this discussion as it falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. Perhaps John Gil will have better outcome:

• John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
  
  Philippians 2:12
  
  Wherefore, my beloved…
  This is an inference from the instance and example of Christ; that since he, who was God over all, blessed for ever, made himself so low in human nature, in which he is now so highly exalted, having done the work and business he came about with such condescension, humility, and meekness; therefore it becomes those who profess to be his followers, to do all their affairs as men and Christians, with, and among one another, in all lowliness of mind. The apostle calls the saints here, "my beloved", he having a strong affection for them, which he frequently expresses in this epistle; and he chooses to make use of such an endearing appellation, that it might be observed, that what he was about to say to them sprung from pure love to them, and a hearty desire for their welfare, and from no other end, and with no other view; and to encourage them to go on in a course of humble duty, he commends them for their former obedience,
  
  
  as ye have always obeyed;
  not "me", as the Arabic and Ethiopic versions supply; but either God, acting according to his revealed will, they had knowledge of; or Christ, by receiving him as prophet, priest, and King, by submitting to his righteousness, and the sceptre of his grace; or the Gospel, by embracing the truths of it, professing them, and abiding in them, and by subjecting to the ordinances of it, and doing all things whatsoever Christ has commanded: and this they did "always"; they were always abounding in the works of the Lord, doing his will; they abode by Christ, and continued steadfastly in his doctrines, and kept the ordinances as they were delivered to them, and walked in all the commandments of the Lord blameless.
  
  Not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence;
  which clause may either be referred to the foregoing, which expresses their obedience; and so signifies that that was carefully and cheerfully performed, not only while the apostle was with them, but now when he was absent from them, and much more when absent than present:, which shows, that they were not eye servants, and menpleasers, but what they did they did sincerely and heartily, as to the Lord: or to the following exhortation, that they would attend to it; not only as they had done when he was among them, of which he was witness, but that they would much more do so now he was absent from them, namely,
  
  
  work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
  which is to be understood not in such a sense as though men could obtain and procure for themselves spiritual and eternal salvation by their own works and doings; for such a sense is contrary to the Scriptures, which deny any part of salvation, as election, justification, and calling, and the whole of it to be of works, but ascribe it to the free grace of God; and is also repugnant to the perfections of God, as his wisdom, grace, and righteousness; for where are the wisdom and love of God, in forming a scheme of salvation, and sending his Son to effect it, and after all it is left to men to work it out for themselves? and where is the justice of God in admitting of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one, which must be the case, if salvation is obtained by men's works? for these are imperfect, even the best of them; and is another reason against this sense of the passage; and were they perfect, they could not be meritorious of salvation, for the requisites of merits are wanting in them. Moreover, was salvation to be obtained by the works of men, these consequences would follow; the death of Christ would be in vain, boasting would be encouraged in men, they would have whereof to glory, and their obligations to obedience taken from the love of God, and redemption by Christ, would be weakened and destroyed: add to all this, that the Scriptures assure us, that salvation is alone by Christ; and that it is already finished by him, and not to be wrought out now by him, or any other; and that such is the weakness and impotence of men, even of believers, to whom this exhortation is directed, that it is impossible for them ever to affect it; therefore, whatever sense these words have, we may be sure that this can never possibly be the sense of them. The words may be rendered, "work about your salvation"; employ yourselves in things which accompany salvation, and to be performed by all those that expect it, though not to be expected for the performance of them; such as hearing of the word, submission to Gospel ordinances, and a discharge of every branch of moral, spiritual, and evangelical obedience for which the apostle before commends them, and now exhorts them to continue in; to go on in a course of cheerful obedience to the close of their days, believing in Christ, obeying his Gospel, attending constantly to his word and ordinances, and discharging every duty in faith and fear, until at last they should receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls: agreeably the Syriac version renders the words, (Nwkyyxd anxlwp wxwlp) , "do the work", or "business of your lives"; the work you are to do in your generation, which God has prescribed and directed you to, which the grace of God teaches, and the love of Christ constrains to. Do all that "with fear and trembling"; not with a slavish fear of hell and damnation, or lest they should fall away, or finally miscarry of heaven and happiness; since this would be a distrust of the power and faithfulness of God, and so criminal in them; nor is it reasonable to suppose, that the apostle would exhort to such a fear, when he himself was so confidently assured, that the good work begun in them would be performed; and besides, the exhortation would be very oddly formed, if this was the sense, "work out your salvation with fear" of damnation: but this fear and trembling spoken of, is such as is consistent with the highest acts of faith, trust, confidence, and joy, and is opposed to pride and vain glory; see (Psalms 2:11) (115:11) (Romans 11:20) ; and intends modesty and humility, which is what the apostle is pressing for throughout the whole context; and here urges to a cheerful and constant obedience to Christ, with all humility of soul, without dependence on it, or vain glorying in it, but ascribing it wholly to the grace of God, for the following reason.

And, if OSAS is FACT, then WHO were all the words that contradict this doctrine WRITTEN TO? From my understanding, EVERY SINGLE WORD of the Bible was written FOR those that LOVE God. For those that don't couldn't even BEGIN to understand them.

If God Almighty is not able to secure His Salvation upon His called and chosen, then He is not much of a god. If man thinks that he can keep God's righteousness by his own means over and above what Jesus Christ has already done, then he is not much of a man, he is a fool.

Again, there are three groups of people that believe in conditional salvation; 1) Those who are babes in Christ (immature born again believers), 2) Those who refuse to submit to the truth of the Holy Spirit because of preconceived notions, beliefs, or traditions, and 3) Those who are not born again and do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

I was born again on October 19, 1983 at twenty-eight years of age. I became a new person on that date.

LOL! I was almost on my way to Beirut at that time...

I hope you remain in Christ until the end.

Regards

 

[Solo]

I was born again on October 19, 1983 at twenty-eight years of age. I became a new person on that date.

LOL! I was almost on my way to Beirut at that time...

I hope you remain in Christ until the end.

Regards

I was in Arkansas living on $500.00 a month with a wife and one child.

I will remain in Christ Jesus until the end because I have been sealed by His Spirit. Thanks and have a good weekend.

 

[francisdesales]

If God Almighty is not able to secure His Salvation upon His called and chosen, then He is not much of a god.

It's not a matter of "if He can secure our salvation or not". It is a matter of whether we will ACCEPT His offer of salvation or not.

God desires ALL men to be saved. Christ died for ALL men. And yet, all men are not saved. Why? Isn't God "powerful" enough? The issue that you are not getting is that God ALLOWS men to choose - enabling men to come to Him via His graces.

God IS love. Love does not force. God does not force us to choose Him. He offers His salvation to men, offering a wonderful promise that we begin to experience even here on earth. However, in the end, we can toss that salvation aside and return to our former life. We have already discussed this - 2 Peter 2 is crystal clear on man's ability to return to a life of sin. He is certainly not alone.

If man thinks that he can keep God's righteousness by his own means over and above what Jesus Christ has already done, then he is not much of a man, he is a fool.

I do not believe ANYONE of us is stating we can become righteous in God's eyes via our OWN means! Why do you keep misstating what we believe??? All depends upon God's graces. We cannot even DESIRE to love without God. But just the same, we can refuse these graces.

Again, there are three groups of people that believe in conditional salvation; 1) Those who are babes in Christ (immature born again believers), 2) Those who refuse to submit to the truth of the Holy Spirit because of preconceived notions, beliefs, or traditions, and 3) Those who are not born again and do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You have yet to prove by Scriptures that born again men CANNOT fall. Thus, you are merely expressing a non-Scriptural idea, even anti-Scriptural...

I will remain in Christ Jesus until the end because I have been sealed by His Spirit.

If you remain in Christ until the end, it will be because of Him.
If you fall away from Christ, it will be because of you.

The promise is held before us. God will not "pull the rug out from under us". But it remains for us to live in faith, moved by God's Spirit. We CAN grieve the Spirit and choose NOT to follow the Spirit. Since we do not know the future, all we can do is persevere until the end.

Regards

 

[shad]

There are those that trust in Jesus Christ and
I was born again on October 19, 1983 at twenty-eight years of age. I became a new person on that date.

Solo,

I became born again 10 years ago, and the Holy Spirit kept bugged me about the man-made doctrine. My faith became stronger ever since I stopped attending the organized church. God has been blessing me with confidence and peace with Him ever since. My faith is getting stronger, and growing for the Lord powerfully. My life is Jesus centered, I have been reading the Bible daily and following Jesus according to His teachings. I have changed my life drastically according to His teachings. I still have a lot room to grow, and will be changing until I die.

BTW, OSAS is the first one that the Holy Spirit told me it is bogus.

 

[LostSoul]

Danielle,

My statement was NOT directed at YOU I assure you. I was simply making a statement concerning how MANY seem hell bent and intent on TELLING others about WHAT'S going to happen to THEM when they Die. How they KNOW that THEY are saved and KNOW how God is going to judge THEM.
You don't need to apologize to me. I didn't even notice that you had posted anything of this sort. So, please accept what I offer here: This is NOT directed AT ANY INDIVIDUAL. It was directed at a GROUP of people.

I am NOT here to condemn ANYONE. I DON'T KNOW who is 'saved' or who is NOT. That is NOT my purpose in Christ. But I AM convicted to offer TRUTH as has been offered to ME. Judge it for what it's worth. If it complies to scripture and has, perhaps, a bit of ADDED WISDOM, then accept it as such. If not, just ignore it.

I have NEVER read ANYWHERE in scripture that we have a 'free ride' so far as Salvation is concerned. YES, it IS a 'GIFT', (the death of Christ for our sins), but one MUST accept a gift in order to RECEIVE it. And it is NOT a 'gift WITHOUT conditions'. As a matter of FACT, the Bible itself is pretty much an INSTRUCTION GUIDE as to HOW we are ABLE to receive this 'gift'. To deny this is to deny MOST of what has been offered in Word.

OSAS, ISAS, these are NOTHING other than men MOSTLY selling BOOKS offering what itching ears desire to hear. For who WOULDN'T want to THINK that ONCE one SAYS that they ACCEPT Christ, then they are BOUND to forgiveness NO MATTER WHAT. I would LOVE to believe in something SO SIMPLE. The only problem with this: FOLKS, YOU WILL BE JUDGED ONE DAY. And it would REALLY be sad to face judgement and ONLY be able to offer: "Well, that's what SOMEONE TOLD ME". I don't think that this is going to be a very valid defense.

We are commanded to FOLLOW. NOT to 'create' doctrine that fits OUR DESIRES. One CANNOT work their way to heaven. But THROUGH WORKS we can SURELY BE what Christ has TOLD us to be. Can we DO IT ON OUR OWN? Of COURSE NOT. It took me over thirty years to become that sinner that I was, (and still am). To even THINK that I could 'snap my fingers' and ALL that I WAS would be GONE is rediculous. For it is such REDICULOUSNESS that leaves MANY to a continuation of CONFUSION rather than being ABLE to truly COME TO GOD through His Son. It takes TIME for us to change. With the power of God NOTHING Is impossible and it's the same with us. He CAN help us to BE what we are meant to be. But it takes OUR efforts as well. For he who is unwilling to work, DOESN'T even deserve to EAT. So HOW do you reacon one too lazy to follow is deserving of eternal LIFE?

What many confuse with 'works' is NOT works. For FAITH is NOT a 'work'. Neither is LOVE. But to LEARN these things we MUST follow the truth as has been offered. We MUST be diligent in our study and prayer. We MUST resist the devil and temptation. If you don't think that these THINGS MUST BE DONE, then you haven't learned the FIRST THING about BEING a 'follower of Christ'. And if you don't think that these THINGS take EFFORT, then you would probably fair BETTER follow such a 'religion' that teaches OSAS or IF saved, always saved.

We have been assured of NOTHING without the 'gift FIRST' being accepted. And even then we are COMMANDED to follow the TRUTH. And IN THAT TRUTH are MANY MANY MANY things that we have been TOLD THAT WE MUST DO. Don't let ANYONE 'trick' you into an unnatural belief that this is NOT SO. Just READ and study and the truth is apparent.

God punishes those that He loves. Hmmm.........................

I am NOT here to convince ANYONE that 'I' am right and they are wrong. What I would do is inflence others to READ and PRAY so that they don't NEED to be right or wrong so far as 'men' are concerned. For it is a 'greater truth' that we are to seek and NOT that 'layed down by the hands of men'.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican,

Thank you for your sharings here. Reading a good number of the posts to this thread I am finding myself truly enlightened. For salvation is something of which can be interpreted various ways, even confused. It has been something I have contemplated a great deal myself so far during my relationship with Christ. For there are so many passages on it, and what it means to know Jesus. Do not think there is ever a point in which one of us can truly say we know enough. As you said, it is a GIFT. Salvation is not something in which we readily have, but have to ACCEPT. That in itself can prove to be the most difficult step for any person to take. Especially pending on the lifestyle, choices, and mistakes made. I know I have had troubles off and on. So it would not amaze me to know others out there face the same dilemna. That is where perhaps we are truly fortunate....God loves us despite all this and if we merely look to Him, we might come to find ourselves surprised at what we may come to find.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Joe67]

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

All the children that the Father has given to Christ will be raised up at the last day. His will lose none.

Joe

 

[nadab]

Once saved always saved is not based on the Bible. Jesus, three days before his death, said: "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 24:13) Thus, those that fail in enduring to the "end" will not be "saved". The apostle Peter wrote: "For this reason, brothers, all the more do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail."(2 Pet 1:10) Thus, to ensure one's salvation, these must "keep on doing" what is righteous in God's eyes.

Judas Iscariot was personally chosen by Jesus, with Jesus spending the night in prayer to select 12 as his apostles.(Luke 6:12-16) At this time, Judas had a clean heart. However, he became a "lover of money" and allowed Satan to enter into his heart.(John 12:6) Hence, Judas was once "saved", but did not "endure to the end". He allowed his heart to become corrupted and was called by Jesus "the son of destruction".(John 17:12)

Ezekiel was told to prophecy concerning the nation of Israel: "And when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustice and I must put a stumbling block before him....For his sin he will die, and his righteous acts that he did will not be remembered."(Eze 3:20) Later, at Ezekiel 33, God tells the nation of Israel: "When I say to the righteous one: "You will positively keep living, " and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice he has done - for this he will die."(Eze 33:13)

Hence, one must have enduring loyalty to God in order to remain forever, for the apostle John wrote that "he does that does the will of God remains forever."(1 John 2:17) James wrote that ' faith apart from works' is "inactive".(James 2:20) He then says: "Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar ? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected."(James 2:21,22) Hence, for one to gain God's approval and live forever, these must have faith that is accompanied by "works". That is why James wrote: "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."(James 2:26)

Just as a pool of water becomes stagnant over time, lacking oxygen to sustain life, so likewise our faith will die without works. Our faith must be a continuous demonstration by works, just as all the righteous ones in the Bible displayed, such as Noah (Gen 6:22), who "constructed an ark for the saving of his household.(Heb 11:7) Abraham, who "exercised faith", and "obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going."(Heb 11:8) and who later, at God's command prepared to offer up his son Isaac.(Heb 11:17-19)

Jude wrote: "I desire to remind you, despite your knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith."(Jude 5; Num 14:29,32; 1 Cor 10:5) Therefore, no one is "once saved always saved". Rather, the apostle Paul wrote, in quoting from Joel 2:32, that "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved."(Rom 10:13)