question for OSAS believers

[mondar]

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.

Very good. Jesus knew. Not you. Not me. No one but God...

Thanks.

Since no one can know the future on whether even THEIR name will remain in the book of life, it is pointless to wonder about others. Jesus knows. We do not.

Regards

Just to restate what you are saying here....

You admit that Jesus knew that Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning?
So then, does this agreement not at least prove Solo's point that Judas was never a believer. How much more authority is needed then for Jesus to know something to be true?

On the other hand, if you agree that Jesus knows the eternal destiny of Judas, and he told us by revelation that Judas was an unbeliever "from the beginning," then we can know the eternal destiny of Judas. The only way we cannot know it is if we refuse to believe that divine revelation of Jesus. The verse says "Jesus knew from the beginning" and now we are told what Jesus knew.

By the way, your reasoning above is a perfect example of non-sequitur reasoning. The issue was the initial salvation of Judas. If Jesus knew he was never saved in the first place, what greater authority is there? What does it matter if we do not have the same ability as Jesus? Jesus (or John) told us that Judas was not saved from the beginning.

Francis,
It seems to me this little debate is over. When you admit that Jesus knew "from the beginning" that Judas was an unbeliever, is that not the point of the debate? If we are not talking about Judas being an unbeliever even from the beginning, what are we talking about?

 

[francisdesales]

Just to restate what you are saying here....

You admit that Jesus knew that Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning?

I think that Jesus, being God and the author of the plan of salvation of men, knew that Judas would be the man of perdition. Jesus says this much in the Garden during His arrest. It was His intent that He would be betrayed. One could question whether God "made" Judas do this or whether God foresaw Judas would do this from the beginning, I suppose.

I am NOT saying that Christ knew Judas as an unbeliever from the beginning, but that Jesus KNEW that Judas WOULD become an unbeliever in the end.

The passage (Johnn 6:64) does not demand your interpretation.

I hope you see the difference...

In the end, of course, we do not have this sort of knowledge. Thus, to me at least, it is moot to try and decide WHO is "from the beginning an unbeliever".

Thus, my comment on Judas being a non-sequitar for Christians of today. Even if you are correct, what does that have to do with us today? WE do NOT have Christ's foreknowledge, whether it is the knowledge that someone was NEVER a believer OR whether someone will fall away (which means either of our position on this matter becomes a non-sequitar to the thread's topic)

Consider the Prodigal Son for a minute, Luke 15. When if we were to judge the son while he lived among the swine, before his repentive decision??? Since we do not know the end of the story (although God does), we are not in a position to decide WHO will REMAIN a believer, or who will repent of being an unbeliever and becoming a believer!

So then, does this agreement not at least prove Solo's point that Judas was never a believer. How much more authority is needed then for Jesus to know something to be true?

The question is not whether Jesus knew something, but whether WE are in the position to know whether someone is a "believer from the beginning" or not.

I am seeing too much of this judging of the salvation of others in these posts of late.

On the other hand, if you agree that Jesus knows the eternal destiny of Judas, and he told us by revelation that Judas was an unbeliever "from the beginning," then we can know the eternal destiny of Judas. The only way we cannot know it is if we refuse to believe that divine revelation of Jesus. The verse says "Jesus knew from the beginning" and now we are told what Jesus knew.

We are dealing with one particular person from Scripture long after he died and with the knowledge of divine revelation. We are not going to get that sort of knowledge about those around us here today. Thus, the judging of "who is really saved" is immature and not our place. Who can say whether someone we 'condemn' will not later recant or return to the heart of Jesus? Jesus knows, but we don't.

By the way, your reasoning above is a perfect example of non-sequitur reasoning. The issue was the initial salvation of Judas. If Jesus knew he was never saved in the first place, what greater authority is there?

Let's look at this again. Maybe I can explain my point of view better.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

I do not find it necessary to interpret this to say that Judas never believed from the beginning, even from the first day he followed Jesus. This comment refers to the present, when Christ gives the teaching on the Bread of Life and eating His flesh as portrayed in John 6, not a commentary on people never believing, though followers. I understand this to say that Jesus always knew that some people would not believe THIS TEACHING. NOT a commentary on ALWAYS being unbelievers. These people WERE disciples of the Lord, were they not?

Here is how I see these verses:

Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray Him.
Jesus knew from the beginning who it was who would not believe His teachings on the Bread of Life.

He always knew that some of His followers would turn away, which naturally calls into question the idea of a follower of Christ not being able to turn away...

I don't see this as a commentary on Judas EVER being a believer.

I hope I have better clarified my position and apologize for not doing it earlier.

Regards

 

[mondar]

Just to restate what you are saying here....

You admit that Jesus knew that Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning?

I think that Jesus, being God and the author of the plan of salvation of men, knew that Judas would be the man of perdition. Jesus says this much in the Garden during His arrest. It was His intent that He would be betrayed. One could question whether God "made" Judas do this or whether God foresaw Judas would do this from the beginning, I suppose.

Since non-sequitur is a favorite phrase, the question of did God "make" Judas do this is both non-sequitur and also a straw man. That is not the topic, we are discussing did Jesus know that Judas was unsaved from the beginning.

I am NOT saying that Christ knew Judas as an unbeliever from the beginning, but that Jesus KNEW that Judas WOULD become an unbeliever in the end.

The passage (Johnn 6:64) does not demand your interpretation.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
Francis, so then you see no grammatical connection between the first part of the verse "some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not..." and the second part of the verse "and who it was that should betray him." I really do not see any disjuncture in the verse as you do. I really do not see maneuver room in the verse, and I do think the grammar of the verse demands my interpretation.

Gotta go, give me some time here before you reply. I did not even finish reading your entire post. I will read and reply to the rest later.

 

[Good News Brown]

Good News Brown,

Thank you for your wise posts concerning God's salvation throughout the various threads. Some reject the truth throughout the Scriptures, and they do so for many reasons; but the crux of their rejection of the truth is for the retention of their current set of beliefs, traditions, and attitudes because of the position that they have obtained in their life. To hold and believe the truth would cause them to leave their current position and/or status attained in their life.

Jesus Himself said that Judas did not believe in John 6:64, and many who were disciples left Jesus because they too did not believe as revealed in John 6:64-66. Thomas the disciple did not believe until after Jesus' resurrection. He believed after seeing the resurrected Christ in John 20:26-29. No one can come to Jesus and believe unless God the Father gives Salvation to them according to Jesus in John 6:65.

Thanks again, and God bless you,

Michael

Thank you brother! And thanks for the in depth posts you've made on the subject of salvation. BTW, I'm glad you brought up the issue of Thomas. That's a great, and possibly often overlooked point you made.

 

[mondar]

On the other hand, if you agree that Jesus knows the eternal destiny of Judas, and he told us by revelation that Judas was an unbeliever "from the beginning," then we can know the eternal destiny of Judas. The only way we cannot know it is if we refuse to believe that divine revelation of Jesus. The verse says "Jesus knew from the beginning" and now we are told what Jesus knew.

We are dealing with one particular person from Scripture long after he died and with the knowledge of divine revelation. We are not going to get that sort of knowledge about those around us here today. Thus, the judging of "who is really saved" is immature and not our place. Who can say whether someone we 'condemn' will not later recant or return to the heart of Jesus? Jesus knows, but we don't.

By the way, your reasoning above is a perfect example of non-sequitur reasoning. The issue was the initial salvation of Judas. If Jesus knew he was never saved in the first place, what greater authority is there?

Let's look at this again. Maybe I can explain my point of view better.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

I do not find it necessary to interpret this to say that Judas never believed from the beginning, even from the first day he followed Jesus. This comment refers to the present, when Christ gives the teaching on the Bread of Life and eating His flesh as portrayed in John 6, not a commentary on people never believing, though followers. I understand this to say that Jesus always knew that some people would not believe THIS TEACHING. NOT a commentary on ALWAYS being unbelievers. These people WERE disciples of the Lord, were they not?

Francis,
Of course they did not believe his teaching. The reason they did not believe his teaching is because he was claiming to be eternal life.
33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
In his teaching he was making a claim about himself. In not believing in this teaching, they were not believing in the savior.

It seems to me you are making some false dichotomy that they can believe in Christ and not believe his teaching that he is the bread of life.

Here is how I see these verses:

Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray Him.
Jesus knew from the beginning who it was who would not believe His teachings on the Bread of Life.

He always knew that some of His followers would turn away, which naturally calls into question the idea of a follower of Christ not being able to turn away...

I don't see this as a commentary on Judas EVER being a believer.

I hope I have better clarified my position and apologize for not doing it earlier.

Regards

No, I think you have not clarified your position. I think you have created a smoke screen.

The text is clear.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
In verse 64 some do not believe, and one of them is the betrayer Judas. Verse 65 explains why they cannot believe, it was not given to them by the Father to believe. Verse 65 says they cannot believe. Thus in the text ....

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled.
This is before his teaching in later chapter 6. This is certainly not faith. Jesus also says
36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
The text also reads....
41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
Not only did they not believe the teaching, but they did not believe in the person of Jesus. This is not faith.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
They know his father and mother and deny Christ is from heaven. These were not believing Jews who said this.

Francis, I dont think this conversation will be profitable. It might be better if I try (just try) and drop out.

 

[Joe67]

Job 33:14-18

14 "Indeed God speaks once,
Or twice, yet no one notices it.
15 "In a dream, a vision of the night,
When sound sleep falls on men,
While they slumber in their beds,
16 Then He opens the ears of men,
And seals their instruction,
17 That He may turn man aside from his conduct,
And keep man from pride;
18 He keeps back his soul from the pit,
And his life from passing over into Sheol. NAS

This is how God comes to us in his grace.
God speaks.
When we are asleep.
He opens our ears.
He seals his instruction.

This is the fruit of this work of grace.
He turns man aside from his conduct.
He keeps us from pride.
He keeps back his soul from the pit.
Our life does not pass into Sheol.

Their are more results to this work of grace. There is God-given bodily suffering.
These results are not part of the popular religious verbage.

Let us do justly, love mercy and walk humbly before our God (you shall have no other gods before me).

Joe

 

[francisdesales]

Since non-sequitur is a favorite phrase, the question of did God "make" Judas do this is both non-sequitur and also a straw man. That is not the topic, we are discussing did Jesus know that Judas was unsaved from the beginning.

It seems to me that you are misusing the term. I am not basing an argument on whether God made Judas sin or whether God foresaw it. I mention it as a sidebar and never refer to it again. It is not the basis of any reply. Thus, how is it a "non-sequitar"?

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.


Francis, so then you see no grammatical connection between the first part of the verse "some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not..."

Believe not in the teaching of the Bread of Life. You go too far.

Sorry if your paradigm is keeping you from seeing my "grammatical connection". The issue is "believe not" what? It is not stated that Jesus knew from the beginning that these people NEVER believed in the Christ. It states that Jesus knew from the beginning that THIS TEACHING would not be believed by all.

Naturally. It is a scandalous teaching for those taught not to drink blood...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

I do not find it necessary to interpret this to say that Judas never believed from the beginning, even from the first day he followed Jesus. This comment refers to the present, when Christ gives the teaching on the Bread of Life and eating His flesh as portrayed in John 6, not a commentary on people never believing, though followers. I understand this to say that Jesus always knew that some people would not believe THIS TEACHING. NOT a commentary on ALWAYS being unbelievers. These people WERE disciples of the Lord, were they not?

Francis,
Of course they did not believe his teaching. The reason they did not believe his teaching is because he was claiming to be eternal life.

You are not stating the entire scandalous teaching! HOW would they achieve eternal life? BY EATING THE FLESH AND DRINKING THE BLOOD!!!

THAT was the part they could not accept, and that was the part that Jesus KNEW from the beginning would NOT be believed. THAT was the part that some CONTINUE to disbelieve, and Christ knew THOSE people would disbelieve from the beginning, as well. Only by God drawing men by faith through the Spirit can man believe this, in much the same way that God enlightened Peter in Matthew 16 that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

Francis, I dont think this conversation will be profitable. It might be better if I try (just try) and drop out.

Suit yourself

Regards

 

[Solo]

Simply Amazing! Not surprising, just Amazing! :o

 

[francisdesales]

Simply Amazing! Not surprising, just Amazing! :o

Yea, I said the same thing when you continued to deny the straight forward and simple meaning of 2 Peter 2, although I was thinking more of "lame" than "amazing"...

The "he was never saved to begin with" leads to judging other people's interior hearts and not taking into account that we are ALL works in progress. Christians are taught not to do judge other's hearts, only God does that.

Now, I guess we know more about Solo than before. The false teaching is matched by the false actions of pretending to do only what God claims for Himself to do...

 

[Solo]

Simply Amazing! Not surprising, just Amazing! :o

Yea, I said the same thing when you continued to deny the straight forward and simple meaning of 2 Peter 2, although I was thinking more of "lame" than "amazing"...

The "he was never saved to begin with" leads to judging other people's interior hearts and not taking into account that we are ALL works in progress. Christians are taught not to do judge other's hearts, only God does that.

Now, I guess we know more about Solo than before. The false teaching is matched by the false actions of pretending to do only what God claims for Himself to do...

It appears that you are judging my heart while saying that God is the only one who does that.

A little hypocritical, don't you think?! :naughty

 

[shad]

It appears that you are judging my heart while saying that God is the only one who does that.

A little hypocritical, don't you think?! :naughty[/quote]

No solo, he is talking about your action, not your heart.

 

[mutzrein]

So, Judas PERSONALLY WITNESSED the miracles of Christ, was CHOSEN BY Christ, BETRAYED The Christ,....................but didn't BELIEVE. Hmmmm.....................

I believe that the TRUTH of Judas has been deceptively manipulated in this thread. For we even have PETER denying Christ THREE times on the day of His persecution. Would these SAME contend that Peter didn't believe EITHER?

And the FACT that Judas returned to those that gave him his silver and tried to give it BACK, this is NOT an indication that he PLAINLY recognized his 'mistake'? And to recognize such, isn't that a PURE indication that he DID 'believe'?

Amusing and amazing that there are SO MANY different interpretations 'at ever juncture'. How can this be?

Judas WAS 'one of the twelve'. He would CERTAINLY have witnessed the miracles of Christ. Judas was NOT Satan's child, but a 'child OF the Devil. That means that when faced with temptation, he was UNABLE or UNWILLING to resist. How OFTEN do we see those that 'claim' to BE Christians struggle in the SAME MANNER? How often have YOU AND I 'betrayed Christ'. For NEVER FORGET, once you accept Christ INTO your heart, HE LIVES IN YOU. And EVERY TIME that you commit sins, you are, in essence, FORCING Christ to endure these sins HIMSELF.

Judas DID believe. He was simply WEAK in the flesh. Not unlike SO MANY TODAY. His very actions plainly point to the guilt that he suffered AFTER falling to temptation. How many feel guilt BEFORE they sin? It is USUALLY AFTER.

So, instead of attempting to paint Judas into a corner as 'someone SPECIAL'. Let us simply accept the FACT that he was merely 'one of US'. Just another that Christ died for.

We are ALL God's children, it's just that NOT ALL choose to BE Children of God.

Blessings,

MEC

Sorry MEC but I can't accept this 'FACT' that 'Judas was merely one of US'. Christ did not die for Judas. He was chosen to fulfil God's purpose for mankind - which he did - and he committed suicide before Christ died.

None of us have been chosen to betray the son of God. We may have been chosen to be vessels of honour and we may have been chosen to be vessels of dishonour. It is God who does the choosing. Not the other way around.

 

[francisdesales]

Yea, I said the same thing when you continued to deny the straight forward and simple meaning of 2 Peter 2, although I was thinking more of "lame" than "amazing"...

The "he was never saved to begin with" leads to judging other people's interior hearts and not taking into account that we are ALL works in progress. Christians are taught not to do judge other's hearts, only God does that.

Now, I guess we know more about Solo than before. The false teaching is matched by the false actions of pretending to do only what God claims for Himself to do...

It appears that you are judging my heart while saying that God is the only one who does that.

A little hypocritical, don't you think?! :naughty

Hardly. You yourself have provided your inner feelings about this topic. I even PM'd you to clarify this with you to make sure that I was not falsely accusing you before I posted online. It didn't help matters when I extend an olive branch and you respond with your false accusations about my beliefs and faith...

God is my witness and I have tried to be amiable with you.

Regards