Question to Christians

[Muhsen]

(116. And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah''' He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.'') (117. "Never did I say to them ought except what You (Allah) did command me to say: `Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelled amongst them, but when You took me [up], You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.'') (118. "If You punish them, they are Your servants, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.'')

Here explanation of ibn katheer

`Isa Rejects Shirk(associate partner with God) and Affirms Tawhid(monotheism)
Allah will also speak to His servant and Messenger, `Isa son of Maryam, peace be upon him, saying to him on the Day of Resurrection in the presence of those who worshipped `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah,

(O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah') This is a threat and a warning to Christians, chastising them in public, as Qatadah and others said, and Qatadah mentioned this Ayah as evidence,
("This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth.'') [5:119] Allah's statement,

(Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say)...) contains Allah's direction for `Isa to utter the perfect answer. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "`Isa will be taught his argument in reply to what Allah will ask him,

(And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah') [5:116].'' Abu Hurayrah then narrated that the Prophet said that Allah taught `Isa to say,
(Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say)...) Ath-Thawri narrated this Hadith from Ma`mar from Ibn Tawus from Tawus. `Isa's statement,
(Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.) means, had I said it, You, my Lord, would have known it, for nothing escapes Your knowledge. Rather, I have not said these words nor did the thought even cross my mind, this why he said,
(You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. Never did I say to them ought except what You (Allah) did command me to say...) and convey,
(Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.) I only called them to what You sent me with and commanded me to convey to them,
(Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord) and this is what I conveyed to them,
(And I was a witness over them while I dwelled amongst them,) I was a witness over what they did when I was amongst them,
(but when You took me [up], You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.) Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Messenger of Allah stood up once and gave us a speech in which he said,
ا (O people! You will be gathered to Allah while barefooted, naked and uncircumcised;
(As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.)
The first among the creation who will be covered with clothes will be Ibrahim. Some men from my Ummah will be brought and taken to the left (to the Fire) and I will yell, `They are my followers!' It will be said, `You do not know what they innvovated after you (in religion).' So I will say just as the righteous servant (`Isa) said,
(And I was a witness over them while I dwelled amongst them, but when You took me [up], You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your servants, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.)
(It will further be said, `These people kept reverting back on their heels after you left them.')'' Al-Bukhari also recorded this Hadith in the explanation of this Ayah. Allah said;
(If You punish them, they are Your servants, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.) All matters refer back to Allah, for He does what He Wills and none can question Him about what He does, while He will question them. This Ayah also shows the crime of the Christians who invented a lie against Allah and His Messenger, thus making a rival, wife and son for Allah. Allah is glorified in that He is far above what they attribute to Him. So this Ayah [5:118] has tremendous value and delivers unique news.

 

[Muhsen]

Surely God will punish the unbelievers and he warned them in Quran
The unbelievers those who associate partner with God whether Jesus or others.

Its not clear that the Quran actually condemns the Trinity doctrine.


I'm not sure that the Trinity really involves "associating partners with God".

No there are many verses in Quran clearly refuting the trinity, here some verses:

5:73. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.'' And there is no god but One God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.)

4:171 O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

5:17. Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam. Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together'' And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is able to do all things.) (18. And the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones.'' Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins'' Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all).) e

5:72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam.'' But the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'' Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the wrongdoers there are no helpers.)

5:74. Will they not repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

5:75. The Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both used to eat food. Look how We make the Ayat clear to them; yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).)

 

[Gary]

Muhammad's mistake

Muhammad did not understand the Trinity... that is why he got the concept wrong in his booklet, the Quran.

He thought the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus the Son and Mary the Mother!!

This is one very clear proof that the Quran is not from God but is only the incorrect thoughts of Muhammad.

 

[Muhsen]

Ok, I will give you refutation the trinity. not by Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
but from Mr. Frank , who is a new convert to Islam, he was Christian, may he also not understand the trinity!!!!!!! .

THE BIG PROBLEM WITH THE TRINITY by Mr. frank

How can the singularly absolute God with his indivisible oneness become three separate beings with three independent decision centers. For example, if all three entities are confined to their own domains for thought and decision-making, then how do they coordinate the separation and joining process of the three different entities? Which entity dictates the split of the one into the three? Is it the Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit? There must be some cause for this controlled effect and that causative factor acting supreme over the three will be the Omnipotent God and not any one of the three, which are only the effect of the supreme controlling cause. Based on the following analysis it does not appear that all three entities are coordinating their efforts. Jesus appears to be confined to his own domain with no access to his Father's mental processes or knowledge. The following three examples prove how Jesus is unable or not allowed to transcend into omnipotence, even admittedly by Jesus himself*

A) Since Jesus does not know of the Day of Judgment he does not have unlimited access to God's information, hence, he is confined to his own domain.
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour no man know, not the angels which are in heaven, nor the son, but only the father.

B) Here is another example of how Jesus does not have unlimited access to God's knowledge.
Mark 5: 25-32 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed. Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, Who touched my clothes? But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it.

C) Jesus himself acknowledges that the Father is greater than himself and how he does not have the ability to access his father's resources,
* Jon 14:28 My father is greater than I.

D) The following verses further prove how Jesus is unable to tap into all the powers of God, even if it meant saving his own life. Moreover, if Jesus is God why does he insist on crying in order to gain help. He really seems confined to his domain of thought and decision making to the extant where it really frustrates him, hence, he cries! This proves his frustration that he cannot transcend his own domain into that of God's.
Luke 6:12 One day Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray and spent the night praying to God.
Hebrews 5:7 During Jesus days on earth, he offered prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him?

E) The following verse further shows how Jesus is confined to his own domain of thought and decision making. For example, Jesus asks a QUESTION in major disappointment. This verse also shows that Jesus is dependant on some other source for help.
Matt 27:46 My God My God why hast thou forsaken me? Furthermore, if Jesus were God than why does he not say in this verse, Myself, Myself, why hast I forsaken Myself? Would not this be complete nonsense?

This is his site:
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/

 

[Gary]

You have not explained why Muhammad made such an elementary mistake about Christian belief.... SURELY if the Quran was from God, God would have known what Christian belief was about!!

:-? <---- poor, puzzled Muhammad. He could not understand Christian belief!

 

[Muhsen]

Concept of trinity known from all

You have not explained why Mr.frank has refuted the trinity despite he was a Christian and he was understanding the trinity.

 

[Muhsen]

Your Concept of trinity

The "Trinity," or 1+1+1=1

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/libr ... 1.2.2.html

 

[Gary]

Muhammad claimed that he (Muhammad ) WAS a prophet of God. Surely God would know what Christians believed? Muhammad did not. His Quran is proof of that.

Muhammad is therefore a fake prophet of the true living God.

 

[YESHUA]

Ok, I will give you refutation the trinity. not by Prophet Muhammad(PUB)
but from Mr. Frank , who is a new convert to Islam, he was Christian, may he also not understand the trinity!!!!!!! .

Strange a convert from christendom with a Jewish name real strange indeed. And he probably converted because he couldn't understand neither Judaism nor Christianity.

This is beginning to look like pingpong.
The fact remain that Muhammad was illiterate and therefore had no knowledged of what he told his follower would be written down exactly as he told them. He could be told anything by anybody he had no way of knowing period. And so the Jews knew this and made fun of him saying that when they where at the mount sinai "All the words the LORD hath spoken will we not do".
And later when they found out that Muhammad took their word seriously they laugh at him because the Jews could speak both Hebrew and Arabic. And read both language whereas many of the Arabs were illiterate, even today many muslims coming from Turkey are illiterate and don't even know the day or year they where born in. And thats one of the reasons why Muhammad really hated the Jews because they made fun of him for being illiterate. And of course the Jews wouldn't believe in allah because they knew that allah was an idol not the same as the GOD they believed in.
And that accounts for the error in the Qur'an where it is written that when the Israelite stood at the foot of mount sinai they said we hear and disobey. In fact the people said "All the words the LORD hath spoken will we do.

2:93 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)": They said:" We hear, and we disobey:" And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if ye have any faith!"

Exodus 19

3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. (did allah go anywhere? or are you still waitning at the mounting for him to come down?
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them.
23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.
24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. 25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

From the Qur'an

2:40 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

The Israelites never had a covenant with allah never they had a covenant with the HOLY ONE OF YISRAEL allah is an idol and GOD clearly warned them against worshipping idols, even when some of them did turned against GOD and worshipped idols it was never allah because he was not in existing yet he came thousands of years later but one thing is for sure they never worshipped allah period not in those days because if they did sure it would had been mentioned in the Bible go look for yourself every idol the Israelites worshipped is mention in there.

2:84 And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.

And what is going on in the land right now? and with the blessings of the Palestinians some times I wonder if any of them ever bothers to read their own book?

 

[DivineNames]

Its not clear that the Quran actually condemns the Trinity doctrine.

No there are many verses in Quran clearly refuting the trinity, here some verses:

As far as I know, there is no mention in the Quran of anything like the kind of doctrine found in the Athanasian Creed.

 

[DivineNames]

Based on the following analysis it does not appear that all three entities are coordinating their efforts. Jesus appears to be confined to his own domain with no access to his Father's mental processes or knowledge.

One point that could be made, Jesus isn't the "Son", Jesus is the Son incarnate. If Jesus isn't omnipotent and omniscient this doesn't necessarily mean that the Son isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

 

[DivineNames]

To post this link again-


God, His Word, and the Qur'an in Islam
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/god_ ... _quran.htm


"Generally the difficulties which Muslims detect in Christian thought about the person of the Messiah and the Trinity have distinct analogies within Muslim thought about God, His Word, the Qur'an and their interrelationship, analogies which they generally do not know or understand, or ignore."

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus, the Creator & God

http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/ ... eator.html



You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands."
(Heb 1:10)

"All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."
(John 1:3)


"The above two biblical verses about Jesus, taken in the entire context of Holy Scripture, proclaim Him to be Jehovah, the Creator God."



I am interested to know what Muslims make of this argument?

 

[DivineNames]

You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands."
(Heb 1:10)

"All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."
(John 1:3)

Could these things be said about Jesus, if the Bible were intending to portray him merely as a prophet?

 

[Muhsen]

.1

 

[Muhsen]

It does not make sense for God to take on a human form and walk on earth, getting his … circumcised,

(Luke 2:21) And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

and suckled from his mother's breasts!

(Luke 11:27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.


Jesus cannot do anything without God's approval. This seems to be contradictory. How can Jesus say that he can do nothing without God's will if he himself is God?

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

How can Jesus as God, forsaken himself? It does not make
sense.

 

[Gary]

Why God became man....

Read and learn.. http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=536

:wink:

 

[Muhsen]

Rather why God has to became man !!!!!!!!

Don’t you think you put down the valuation Of God almighty when you think He become man ?!!!!!!
This is very dangerous doctrine, and it will throw its believer in the hell fire

 

[warner]

When GOD was in the garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face and Prayed to another GOD asking the other GOD :

Mt 26:39 O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
This GOD did not function according to his will but to that of the Other GOd.His life was in the hands of the other GOD.This GOD sweated Blood and sweat(like a human) while Praying to that GOD.
In the end that GOD did not listen to the Prayers of this GOD and this GOD was killed by the Creation that the other GOD created.And this GOD even called the other GOD
Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
But the other GOD ignored him and he said it is finished and died
Peace
:angel:

 

[Gary]

God can do anything! Just as in the act of creation, God's eternal Word came out of Him when He spoke to create all things (but He did not become two gods), so when he spoke His eternal Word into the virgin Mary, God's Word remained God and at the same time became a man like us.

Jesus never stopped being almighty God's Eternal Word. It says, ‘The Word became flesh ...’ (John 1:14); not ‘The Word changed to flesh.’ He is not sometimes God and sometimes man, nor is He half God and half man. He is both fully God and fully human at the same time!

Read more ... - click here -