Questions about Satan

[JustWondering]

I was just wondering (hence my name) where we get the traditional concept of Satan? I'm referring to the commonly understood idea that he is a fallen angel who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. What are the scriptures that support this story? I know about Isaiah 14:12, but can we be certain this is referring to Satan? In the KJV that verse refers to Lucifer, but I noticed in the NIV, it doesn't include the reference to Lucifer. Also, it seems to be directed as a taunt against the King of Babylon, so why do we infer those verses to be about Satan?

I also read Ezekiel 28, which I think many people interpret to be verses about Satan's rebellion and exile from Heaven. But again, in context, it seems to be directed to the earthly ruler of Tyre, so why is it applied to Satan? Where are the verses that refer to the 1/3 of angels being banished with him? I couldn't find that one.

Lastly, I have a more general philosophical question. When Satan rebelled and got expelled from Heaven, why did God banish him to Earth? With an entire universe at His disposal, wouldn't it have made more sense to put Satan somewhere far away from God's children? If it's true that Satan's entire purpose is to destroy us and keep people from coming to Christ, why would God intentionally allow Satan to dwell on the same planet as His children? The Bible says God wants everyone to be saved, and no one to perish, but wouldn't we (humanity) have a much higher success rate if Satan and his demons weren't here with us?

To me, it is similar to an earthly parent having a rottweiler or pit bull and finding out they have rabies. Then, instead of putting the dog to sleep or confining it somewhere very far away and safe, the parent intentionally let's the dog stay in the backyard where all the kids are playing.

I don't mean to be disrespectful here, I'm just wondering what reasons God might have for doing this.

 

[Guap]

I was just wondering (hence my name) where we get the traditional concept of Satan? I'm referring to the commonly understood idea that he is a fallen angel who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. What are the scriptures that support this story? I know about Isaiah 14:12, but can we be certain this is referring to Satan? In the KJV that verse refers to Lucifer, but I noticed in the NIV, it doesn't include the reference to Lucifer. Also, it seems to be directed as a taunt against the King of Babylon, so why do we infer those verses to be about Satan?

I also read Ezekiel 28, which I think many people interpret to be verses about Satan's rebellion and exile from Heaven. But again, in context, it seems to be directed to the earthly ruler of Tyre, so why is it applied to Satan? Where are the verses that refer to the 1/3 of angels being banished with him? I couldn't find that one.

Lastly, I have a more general philosophical question. When Satan rebelled and got expelled from Heaven, why did God banish him to Earth? With an entire universe at His disposal, wouldn't it have made more sense to put Satan somewhere far away from God's children? If it's true that Satan's entire purpose is to destroy us and keep people from coming to Christ, why would God intentionally allow Satan to dwell on the same planet as His children? The Bible says God wants everyone to be saved, and no one to perish, but wouldn't we (humanity) have a much higher success rate if Satan and his demons weren't here with us?

To me, it is similar to an earthly parent having a rottweiler or pit bull and finding out they have rabies. Then, instead of putting the dog to sleep or confining it somewhere very far away and safe, the parent intentionally let's the dog stay in the backyard where all the kids are playing.

I don't mean to be disrespectful here, I'm just wondering what reasons God might have for doing this.

Good questions.
Rev 12:4 talks about the tail of the serpent bringing down a third part of the stars of heaven.

Of course there are those who say this is the future, but I suspect this speaks of the fall you are talking about.

Luk 10:18 talks about Satan falling from heaven.

I think the interpretations of Isa and Ezekiel are driven more from a theological stand point than from an strictly exegitical view. These passages first talk of others, but perhaps they speak of more than that - of Satan's fall, which we know about from Jesus' words in Luke 10:18, and the fact that God created all things good (Gen 1).

Can't say why God allowed Satan on the earth, perhaps it is part of his commitment to free will, and after being left from heaven, that is the place he chose?

Of course Job 1 + 2 talk of Satan being in the heavens ....

 

[PouringRain]

The Jewish view of Satan is much different than the Christian one. (I believe in the Jewish view.) You might be interested in studying the differences. Although..... from the part you wrote that I quoted below, I don't know that you would find any comfort in the Jewish view.

Lastly, I have a more general philosophical question. When Satan rebelled and got expelled from Heaven, why did God banish him to Earth? With an entire universe at His disposal, wouldn't it have made more sense to put Satan somewhere far away from God's children? If it's true that Satan's entire purpose is to destroy us and keep people from coming to Christ, why would God intentionally allow Satan to dwell on the same planet as His children? The Bible says God wants everyone to be saved, and no one to perish, but wouldn't we (humanity) have a much higher success rate if Satan and his demons weren't here with us?

To me, it is similar to an earthly parent having a rottweiler or pit bull and finding out they have rabies. Then, instead of putting the dog to sleep or confining it somewhere very far away and safe, the parent intentionally let's the dog stay in the backyard where all the kids are playing.

 

[AKJVReader]

The NIV perverts Jesus Christ into Lucifer!

Isaiah 14:14 reveals Satan's grandest desire, "I will be like the most High."And with a little subtil perversion - the NIV in Isaiah 14:12 grants Satan's wish!
ISAIAH 14:12: The KJB reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!. . ." The NIV PERversion reads, "How you have fallen from heaven, O MORNING STAR, son of the dawn. . ." The NIV change "Lucifer" to "MORNING STAR".

BUT WAIT. . . I thought the Lord Jesus Christ was the MORNING STAR?

Doesn't Revelation 22:16 say, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR".

The NIV CLEARY AND BLATANTLY makes LUCIFER -- The Lord Jesus Christ! WHAT BLASPHEMY! WHAT PERVERSION! And Christians claim the NIV is a "better translation"!
ISAIAH 14:15: The King James Bible condemns Lucifer to hell: "Yet thou shalt be brought down to HELL . . ." The NIV does NOT condemn Lucifer to HELL! The NIV reads, "But you are brought down to the GRAVE. . ." We all go to the GRAVE! Why doesn't the NIV want Satan in hell?

Read the rest here: The New International Version - NIV

 

[Sam21]

The last post made some good points about the NIV. Anyway back to satan. Isaiah 14 and Eze 28 speak literally of earthly kings not satan, the idea that they are speaking of satan is a man-made idea that has become accepted, it may be true or it may not be true,however it is a fact that there is nothing in the literal bible that would confirm that Isaiah and Eze are speaking of satan, so I never would teach that they do.
The first mention of satan in the bible is in Genesis, we can know that the serpent in Gen is actually satan because Revelation refers to satan as the ORIGINAL SERPENT. We also know that the serpent(satan)was not like a snake because the curse after he sinned was that he would crawl like a snake(therefore the man called him serpent?). The original story of serpent satan was that he was an earthly creation and created to be less than man but that he did have great intelligence(you have to be smart to be subtle). Later we find satan as a spirit being and operating in the spiritual heavenly realm. The last picture we have of satan he is still a serpent creature but a spirit one and with great power.
It does appear that satan was a simple creation of earth that was created less than man and that by the act of getting the woman and man to submit to his leadership rather than the leadership of God that satan attained his position of spiritual power. The ingredients are there for this to be the case but that does not mean that that has to be the case.

 

[Guap]

The original story of serpent satan was that he was an earthly creation and created to be less than man but that he did have great intelligence(you have to be smart to be subtle).

Not sure this is correct. There is no statement that satan was created less than man is there? Also this understanding doesn't account for Luke 18:10 - Satan fell from heaven.

Later we find satan as a spirit being and operating in the spiritual heavenly realm.

In Job 1 + 2. I wonder how a simple snake like creature can suddenly become a spiritual being in the heavenly realm? I think you are missing something about your understanding of Satan's origins.

 

[Sam21]

Not sure this is correct. There is no statement that satan was created less than man is there? Also this understanding doesn't account for Luke 18:10 - Satan fell from heaven.



In Job 1 + 2. I wonder how a simple snake like creature can suddenly become a spiritual being in the heavenly realm? I think you are missing something about your understanding of Satan's origins.

I have studied satan 14 ways to sunday, and a lot of it is a mystery, I was simply pointing out what is actually written in the bible apart from speculation. OK, now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made...this statement places serpent in the same class of being created as the other creatures except that he was smarter(have to be smarter to be more subtle). God placed man over all the creatures, and let them(man)have dominion over,fish,birds,beasts,snakes. If we take Genesis literally then man was over serpent satan in the beginning, now we later see satan in the heavenly realm. Paul called satan the ruler of the atmosphere, it appears that satan attained some kind of heavenly place but not the heaven where God dwells. The casting out of heaven of satan is in the future according to Revelation,satan will be cast out of the heavenly place he attained by deceiving man into following his leadership rather than the leadership of God.

 

[Hitch]

Got any NT support for this theory Sam?

 

[Free]

The NIV perverts Jesus Christ into Lucifer!

Isaiah 14:14 reveals Satan's grandest desire, "I will be like the most High."And with a little subtil perversion - the NIV in Isaiah 14:12 grants Satan's wish!
ISAIAH 14:12: The KJB reads, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning!. . ." The NIV PERversion reads, "How you have fallen from heaven, O MORNING STAR, son of the dawn. . ." The NIV change "Lucifer" to "MORNING STAR".

BUT WAIT. . . I thought the Lord Jesus Christ was the MORNING STAR?

Doesn't Revelation 22:16 say, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR".

The NIV CLEARY AND BLATANTLY makes LUCIFER -- The Lord Jesus Christ! WHAT BLASPHEMY! WHAT PERVERSION! And Christians claim the NIV is a "better translation"!
ISAIAH 14:15: The King James Bible condemns Lucifer to hell: "Yet thou shalt be brought down to HELL . . ." The NIV does NOT condemn Lucifer to HELL! The NIV reads, "But you are brought down to the GRAVE. . ." We all go to the GRAVE! Why doesn't the NIV want Satan in hell?

Read the rest here: The New International Version - NIV

There is a thread on these forums which shows the error in reasoning of the above, but this thread is not about Bible versions, so it will end here.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Someone previously mentioned that Luke 10 tells us that Jesus taught that Satan fell from Heaven. Is this really what Jesus was trying to convey in that passage? Let's look at in in its context.
1st, pro Lucifer=the Devil translations will reflect the paradigm that believes Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, and Luke 10 are talking about an angel who was rebellious to God falling from Heaven. They tend to render the verse as follows:

He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven....

First, the reader needs to understand the context of this statement. Jesus is replying to the 70 that he had sent out who had returned to him giving a report that even the evil spirits (demons) obeyed them. His reply had nothing to do with Heaven or the devil ever being there. All Jesus was saying was a positive conformation of the news he was being given and his response was in essense; "Yes indeed, I saw the enemy falling."

Well, when the seventy who were sent out in pairs returned, they joyfully said, ‘Lord, even the demons obeyed us when we used your name!’
Then he said to them: ‘I saw the opposer (or the adversary) falling like lightning from the sky. 19 Look! I’ve given you the authority to step on serpents, scorpions, and on the power of the enemy… and nothing will harm you! 20 However, don’t be happy because [evil] spirits obeyed you; be happy because your names have been written in the heavens!’

 

[Guap]

. The casting out of heaven of satan is in the future according to Revelation,satan will be cast out of the heavenly place he attained by deceiving man into following his leadership rather than the leadership of God.

There is nothing to say that this vision of Revelation is in the future. It might be, but it might be something from the past as well.

It doesn't account for the fact that Jesus saw Satan fall - luke 10:18. You've not made any comments on thsi passage. Why?

 

[Guap]

Then he said to them: ‘I saw the opposer (or the adversary) falling like lightning from the sky'.

So even though Jesus says, 'Satan' you are saying this isn't about Satan? Who is Satan, other than the opposer, or the adversary? Is there another?
So rather than understanding it that the apostles are saying, 'wow the spirits obey us', and Jesus responds, I saw Satan - the leader of all them fall', you interpret it some other way?

 

[Alabaster]

I have studied satan 14 ways to sunday, and a lot of it is a mystery, I was simply pointing out what is actually written in the bible apart from speculation. OK, now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made...this statement places serpent in the same class of being created as the other creatures except that he was smarter(have to be smarter to be more subtle). God placed man over all the creatures, and let them(man)have dominion over,fish,birds,beasts,snakes. If we take Genesis literally then man was over serpent satan in the beginning, now we later see satan in the heavenly realm. Paul called satan the ruler of the atmosphere, it appears that satan attained some kind of heavenly place but not the heaven where God dwells. The casting out of heaven of satan is in the future according to Revelation,satan will be cast out of the heavenly place he attained by deceiving man into following his leadership rather than the leadership of God.

Man did have authority over Satan in the beginning! Adam gave his authority to him!

Now Satan and his horde have been cast down to the earthly realm by God, and he rules over the planet, including the first heaven, which is our atmosphere. Jesus Christ came and defeated him and gave us His authority over Satan. Do we use it? Not many do, because not many are being taught the truth about their authority in Christ. Therefore he still rules in many people's lives and circumstances.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So even though Jesus says, 'Satan' you are saying this isn't about Satan? Who is Satan, other than the opposer, or the adversary? Is there another?
So rather than understanding it that the apostles are saying, 'wow the spirits obey us', and Jesus responds, I saw Satan - the leader of all them fall', you interpret it some other way?

The term 'satan' is not a proper name, but rather a descriptive term just like the terms 'christ' and 'god'. All the word satan means is adversary or opposer. Anyone could be a satan. Peter was referred to by that term, and even God himself was referred to by that term in dealing with David's census. As for the way the text is to be understood, I believe that all it is showing the reader is that Jesus acknowledged the power his sent ones had over the enemy when Jesus said, "I saw the opposer/satan fall from the sky."
Again, Jesus did NOT say the Devil fell out of or was casted out of Heaven here. All he says is that he saw the satan fell from the sky like lightening. What did Jesus mean or what was he implying? Did he literally see the opposer falling from the sky or was he implying something else? We must also ask and consider how first century Galileans and Judeans would have perceived these comments in light of the fact that that's to whom he was speaking. Understanding their paradigm and understanding of such language would better help us to see the meaning of what Jesus said.

 

[Sam21]

The term 'satan' is not a proper name, but rather a descriptive term just like the terms 'christ' and 'god'. All the word satan means is adversary or opposer. Anyone could be a satan. Peter was referred to by that term, and even God himself was referred to by that term in dealing with David's census. As for the way the text is to be understood, I believe that all it is showing the reader is that Jesus acknowledged the power his sent ones had over the enemy when Jesus said, "I saw the opposer/satan fall from the sky."
Again, Jesus did NOT say the Devil fell out of or was casted out of Heaven here. All he says is that he saw the satan fell from the sky like lightening. What did Jesus mean or what was he implying? Did he literally see the opposer falling from the sky or was he implying something else? We must also ask and consider how first century Galileans and Judeans would have perceived these comments in light of the fact that that's to whom he was speaking. Understanding their paradigm and understanding of such language would better help us to see the meaning of what Jesus said.

The context tells us that Jesus was making a prophetic utterance after the 70 had been casting out demons. The "I saw" means that He was refering to something that just happened. It appears that satan and his folks have a dwelling place just like God and the angels have a dwelling place and those in hell have a dwelling place. I believe the dwelling place of satan is the 2nd heaven, the bible does not literally speak of a 2nd heaven but we know the first heaven is where the birds fly and the clouds, and the 3rd heaven is where God and Christ and the angels live. This second heaven is where I believe satan and his people will be cast out of at the end of the age.

 

[Alabaster]

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The context tells us that Jesus was making a prophetic utterance after the 70 had been casting out demons. The "I saw" means that He was refering to something that just happened. It appears that satan and his folks have a dwelling place just like God and the angels have a dwelling place and those in hell have a dwelling place. I believe the dwelling place of satan is the 2nd heaven, the bible does not literally speak of a 2nd heaven but we know the first heaven is where the birds fly and the clouds, and the 3rd heaven is where God and Christ and the angels live. This second heaven is where I believe satan and his people will be cast out of at the end of the age.

In what way does the context of Luke 10 lead one to conclude that Jesus was making a propheit utterance? What scriptural evidence is there that would lead one to conclude that "satan and his folks have a dwelling place just like God and the angels"?

 

[Sam21]

In what way does the context of Luke 10 lead one to conclude that Jesus was making a propheit utterance? What scriptural evidence is there that would lead one to conclude that "satan and his folks have a dwelling place just like God and the angels"?

The context implies that it was a prophetic utterance. We know that the word heaven can mean several things, we know that God's will is being done in the 3rd heaven where God dwells(Jesus said that God's will was being done in heaven and Paul implied that the 3rd heaven was where God was),Rev says that satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven(we know that they cannot be dwelling with God so it has to be a different place). We also know that after satan and his angels are cast out of heaven that there dwelling place is no more(God destroys it). For the final battle all the forces of evil, human and angel and satan will be on the earth.

 

[Free]

The term 'satan' is not a proper name, but rather a descriptive term just like the terms 'christ' and 'god'. All the word satan means is adversary or opposer. Anyone could be a satan. Peter was referred to by that term, and even God himself was referred to by that term in dealing with David's census. As for the way the text is to be understood, I believe that all it is showing the reader is that Jesus acknowledged the power his sent ones had over the enemy when Jesus said, "I saw the opposer/satan fall from the sky."
Again, Jesus did NOT say the Devil fell out of or was casted out of Heaven here. All he says is that he saw the satan fell from the sky like lightening. What did Jesus mean or what was he implying? Did he literally see the opposer falling from the sky or was he implying something else? We must also ask and consider how first century Galileans and Judeans would have perceived these comments in light of the fact that that's to whom he was speaking. Understanding their paradigm and understanding of such language would better help us to see the meaning of what Jesus said.

Satan is used as a noun, that is, as a proper name.

 

[JustWondering]

Thanks to everyone who had replied to my original post. There have been a lot of interesting comments. So far, though, no one has offered any thoughts about why God decided to allow Satan to have dominion over Earth. When Satan rebelled and was banished by God (if that is the correct interpretation of what happened), why did God send him to this planet? Why not send him and his demons to some remote planet billions of light years away from here? If God loves all of us and wants as many people as possible to be saved, why did He allow Satan to come here, apparently for the sole purpose of wreaking havoc and driving as many of us away from God as possible? I'm just curious if anyone has any theological explanation as to why this might be. In all my years of being a Christian, I never heard anyone address that issue.