Qustion for trinitarians

[francisdesales]

Francis,

You also told me that Jesus is not YHWH. I remember all these things because I have been reading many, many trinity arguments.

I did? Could you please cite where I said that, I don't recall saying that, Shad.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

give me a post that francis says to the otherwise and post here.

Here it is:

The Father is "superior" in relationship,

Shad,

Note, I put "superior" in quotations, meaning there is a nuance explanation, which I provide. I will further expand on it.

In human terms, a Father is "superior" to the Son as far as relationship. But since they are of the same essence, both are Divine, we cannot say one is "superior" to the other. The difference is merely in relationship of origin. The Father was not begotten from the Son. But if the Son has all of the Divine charecteristics, which are infinite, how can we say that one is "superior" to the other? In human terms, we consider a Father superior to the Son in chronological order. However, there IS NO CHRONOLOGY for God!!!

Jesus is speaking about His role as One who took on the form of a slave, willingly humbling Himself. When comparing God to a perfect man, naturally, there is an idea of superiority. However, Jesus is ALSO GOD, so there is no superiority, ontologically. The Word is of the same essence and IS God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our Fathers.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

shad,

I think you need to define your poll question more accurately. If I asked you if you and your father are equal, your first question would be "in what way". You are both humans, so you would be equal in that way. You are both (I'm assuming) "born again", however you define it, so you would be equal in that way. But, he is your father and as such, and depending on your age, he would be superior to you. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. This analogy could be extended to family members, co-workers, politicians, etc.

The point is, there are different ways that people are equal or superior/inferior to others. You need to define it, that's what Francis did above.

 

[westtexas]

Shad,

Note, I put "superior" in quotations, meaning there is a nuance explanation, which I provide. I will further expand on it.

In human terms, a Father is "superior" to the Son as far as relationship. But since they are of the same essence, both are Divine, we cannot say one is "superior" to the other. The difference is merely in relationship of origin. The Father was not begotten from the Son. But if the Son has all of the Divine charecteristics, which are infinite, how can we say that one is "superior" to the other? In human terms, we consider a Father superior to the Son in chronological order. However, there IS NO CHRONOLOGY for God!!!

Jesus is speaking about His role as One who took on the form of a slave, willingly humbling Himself. When comparing God to a perfect man, naturally, there is an idea of superiority. However, Jesus is ALSO GOD, so there is no superiority, ontologically. The Word is of the same essence and IS God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our Fathers.

Regards

I wouldn't spend a lot of time explaining Joe. He's not going to take the time to read it anyway.

Westtexas

 

[francisdesales]

I wouldn't spend a lot of time explaining Joe. He's not going to take the time to read it anyway.

Westtexas

Well, that might be true, but perhaps there are others not participating but just reading, and they might be interested, so I'll try to be helpful for them, at least...

Regards

 

[shad]

Francis,

You also told me that Jesus is not YHWH. I remember all these things because I have been reading many, many trinity arguments.

I did? Could you please cite where I said that, I don't recall saying that, Shad.

Regards

It may take a while but I will find it.

 

[shad]

Francis,

You also told me that Jesus is not YHWH. I remember all these things because I have been reading many, many trinity arguments.

I did? Could you please cite where I said that, I don't recall saying that, Shad.

Regards

Here it is:

francisdesales on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:00 pm

shad wrote:

[quote:1yl1n91f]Do you know that protestants are saying YHWH is Jesus? If the verses you guys are using are so clear why so much confusion among trinitrians?

The doctrine of the Trinity is a mysterious doctrine that can be confusing to explain. I am not surprised if a Christian has a difficulty with the specifics on it. I think if you hear "Jesus is God", all Christians would agree, even if they have a difficult time proof texting it. That is not necessary, since the Scriptures clearly point out that Jesus claimed divine attributes for Himself, even in the synoptic Gospels...
[/quote:1yl1n91f]

 

[jasoncran]

quote the whole thing, he states later that the yhwh is the lord. :bigfrown

 

[Pard]

quote the whole thing, he states later that the yhwh is the lord. :bigfrown

Yes, this isn't MSNBC, no need to only give sound bites out of context!

 

[shad]

Here is what Dad says:

by dadof10 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:50 pm

shad wrote:
dadof10 wrote:
How many verses does it take to make a doctrine? 3, 4? If more than one, I question why you believe Scripture to be "inspired by God" at all, since it only says so ONCE in the entirety of the NT.

So, Shad, how many?

My point is that you are ignoring too many verses to hang on to your mystic verses like "I am".

I am ignoring NOTHING. I have said repeatedly that YHWH is Jesus' God.

 

[jasoncran]

quote the whole thing, he states later that the yhwh is the lord. :bigfrown

Yes, this isn't MSNBC, no need to only give sound bites out of context!

true, and later dad of 10 clearly states that yhwh is both spoken of as the father and the christ is the same.

verses are in the bible to support this. any time it says LORD GOD, think yhwh is meant to be there, and that is all over in the in ot in kjv, and some of the ot sayings about the sharing of glory is spoken by the yhwh.

 

[shad]

quote the whole thing, he states later that the yhwh is the lord. :bigfrown

Here it is, the whole post.

by francisdesales on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:00 pm

shad wrote:

Do you know that protestants are saying YHWH is Jesus? If the verses you guys are using are so clear why so much confusion among trinitrians?

The doctrine of the Trinity is a mysterious doctrine that can be confusing to explain. I am not surprised if a Christian has a difficulty with the specifics on it. I think if you hear "Jesus is God", all Christians would agree, even if they have a difficult time proof texting it. That is not necessary, since the Scriptures clearly point out that Jesus claimed divine attributes for Himself, even in the synoptic Gospels...


shad wrote:

And please show me where in the Bible say God is person? I trust that Bible is God breathed and we will get all knowledge from it. If you dont agree with that then there is no meaning for our discussion.

Common sense tells me that God is a person and not an inanimate object or a Being that cannot think rationally. BY DEFINITION, God is a Person.

Jews, Muslims and Christians realize this. I am willing to say that even Mormons and JW's would say God is a person, given the philosophical defintion of "Person". Given this definition, would ANYONE deny that God is a Person?

If this is the extent of your argument, you are on pretty shabby ground, Shad.

 

[Pard]

Agreed, Jason. Anti-Trinity people often claim that we twist the scripture to show the Trinity. In reality, the Scripture has been twisted to remove the Trinity from being blatantly obvious. Here is a link to a Bible translation that keeps the proper translation (meaning it puts Elohim/YWHW whereever it says LORD or Lord God

 

[jasoncran]

clearly this post by dad of 10 is enough, shad stop doing that posting half quotes, that is deceptive. post the whole thing.

i deal with evolution and dont believe in that, but i wont treat the guys that believe in that like that, if they have a point and its the better case, i will concede and look for the counter argument.

heres the post on the case made by dad of 10, scroll down to dad of 10 post you will see

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48911&p=594443&hilit=+yhwh%2Fjesus#p594443

lol "SCRIPTURES CLEARLY POINT OUT THAT CHRIST CLEARLY CLAIMED DIVINE ATTRIBUTES." that means even the name of lord is the same. wow.

for instance, the first and the last, jesus and the yhwh in isiah state that.

so if they same the thing they must be the same.

edited while you posted yours.

 

[shad]

Here you are, Dad is saying YHWH is Jesus' God and Francis is affirming protestants' confusion.

I started this post because I am proving that doctrine of trinity is nothing but chaos. Trinitarians cannot agree with each other. God is not a God of chaos and confusion.

And now catholics are taking back what they said. What is going on?

 

[Pard]

Jason, you bring up a very good point. The most hostile people on this forum are not the atheists and the evolutionists. The most hostile people seem to be the anti-Trinitarians (not all of them... well, actually, really just one of them)

 

[shad]

clearly this post by dad of 10 is enough, shad stop doing that posting half quotes, that is deceptive. post the whole thing.

I just did what you told me to do and you are saying it is deceptive to show the posts?
Isn't it more deceptive to lie and say that the half of the post I didn't quote says something that it DOESN'T?

 

[Pard]

could you link this post?

 

[jasoncran]

clearly this post by dad of 10 is enough, shad stop doing that posting half quotes, that is deceptive. post the whole thing.

I just did what you told me to do and you are saying it is deceptive to show the posts?
Isn't it more deceptive to lie and say that the half of the post I didn't quote says something that it DOESN'T?

uh no, if you read on i said that i was posting when you posted yours, and you still didnt look for where the catholics (dad of 10)here did state clearly the jesus was the yhwh.

the verse you hate, jn 20:28
clearly supports that.

 

[shad]

The poll is showing you have three kinds of trinity views.

I am proving so many ways you guys are confused and divided.

God is not God of confusion and chaos.