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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Rapture and the Second Coming
- Thread starter n2thelight
- Start date
Deborah13
Member
That is exactly why the discussion of 'the falling away'. If one believes that falling away is 'away from the earth' then that would have to be a separate event from the coming. Because the falling away happens before the coming.
I agree with you that all the verses you posted are so alike in vocabulary that it would be hard for me to make a case for two different events, no matter what I personally believe.
Jerusalem is a city, whose Temple is on Mount Moriah.
Now Solomon began to build the house of the Lord at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah, where the Lord had appeared to his father David, at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
JLB
Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures seem to be describing two different events.
“Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.
Deborah13
Member
Daniel 12 NASB
And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt.
So this is one that seems to say there will be one event but two outcomes for those involved in that event.
Yes, I believe that this is describing one of the 2 events. This would be "the day of the Lord"( Amos 5:18) and not "his glorious appearing"(Titus 2:13)
There are going to be many believers that die in the tribulation after the rapture of the Church(that were not believers before the rapture)....these will come out of the dust of the ground to everlasting life after the tribulation. In fact the Angels will do this. The Lord comes personally for His church.
Mark 13:27~~"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
1 Thess 4:16~~For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
It's Not?
When did they move Mount Moriah?
WOW, I am really behind in information.
Thanks for the update.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
If you read though we addressed the scriptures you posted........... Post tribbers want to add a verb "Apostasia" instead of a noun. It's not a verb and JLB has yet to explain this great mystery on how Apostasia just magicly turns into a verb.
If it's the English word Apostasy, then that is a person as it's a Noun. Deborah pointed this out for us. I don't think JLB wants it to be just one person falling away then the son of perdition is revealed so we have to make it......
Apostate...... that is a verb, we just change the Word to fit what we want.
You also failed to produce that scripture where Michale kicks the Antichrist out of heaven, the scripture said there was no more place for Satan. No scripture saying the Antichrist is the devil, as John describe the Antichrist as a type of spirit with many in the World and Satan is just one.
Apostasy:
noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
So why don't we clear up this failure to understand nouns and verbs first, what causes someone to be completely clueless to simple language. If it's Apostasy then it's a person as the word is a noun. If it's Apostasies Plural then The Greek Noun does not denote that or the Holy Spirit must have gotten it wrong.
Apostasia means to depart from a previous standing, the Root Verb that the noun is made just means to depart. Nothing in the Greek make up a deflection from what is true or a revolt from what is true. It has to have the male noun or defined in the article to what is departed from.
Like the example with the Word in Acts, they Forsake (Apostasia) what did they forsake? Moses........ That is the proper Greek Female noun not able to define what it departed from or forsake from a previous standing.
So we need to explain what causes someone to ignore our other example of how a Female Greek noun is used.
Even if it were a verb.......
parapiptō VERB............
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.
Then the Greek would read to fall away or apostatize from the son of perdition first.
No need to continue if we can't even figure out these simple things.
Mike.
Let's clear up why we just make stuff up first, then we can move on.
Post tribbers believe that the scriptures teach Jesus will come and gather His Church after the man of sin is revealed.
Pre-tribbers can not and will not provide any scripture for what they believe.
JLB
Show me the scripture that says Apostasia is a noun or verb.
You want us to believe you about some goofy "Greek" opinion, when you refuse to give scripture for what you believe.
SCRIPTURE! BROTHER MIKE,SCRIPTURE.
JLB
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Deborah13
Member
Yes, it's a noun but not a person. I know you know this Mike, that a noun is a person, place, or thing. You write too well not to have a decent understanding of grammar.
Think of it this way................ the Resurrection. Resurrection is a noun but not a person. It is a thing.
It is the same with the apostasia,......... a falling away, an Apostasy. Apostasy is a noun but not a person. It is a thing. It is something that happens. It is not the action that happens, but the 'something'.
Ahh..... The Wedding...... wedding is a noun it doesn't do anything itself. But when someone says wedding we think, of the things that happen (actions) at the wedding and who is involved.
Wedding = marriage ceremony
Does that make more sense?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I have posted this how many times??
You show me scripture that Jesus Christ is a proper Greek title (Male Noun) and I'll show you scripture that proves Apostasia is a Female Greek Noun.
If you like we can just pretend the Greek does not have any language structure, we just make up what we need. We can do that if you like.
Mike.
it is........ but ............ Resurrection from what? It can't define that. However, JLB does not want the Word Resurrection there either, He wants a verb action that says this......
The Church will fall from the truth.
that is what he wants to be included in just one word. That would take nouns, verbs, pronouns, Greek Adjectives to convey. One verb or noun would not even mean that.
That is what JLB wants Paul to say.
yes, the Wedding.........We know exactly what a wedding is, we know people get married at weddings. SO........... I invite you to the Wedding Deborah, I call you on the phone and ask you to the wedding and then hang up.
You never showed up at the Wedding. You had no idea who's wedding, or even where the wedding was at. You did not know the time of the wedding.
This is what I have been trying to explain.
The Subject of the Article, everything in the whole article is based on it's root subject.
I failed those English test where you had to read the paragraph and then pick what the subject of the paragraph was about, but I understand this one.
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a falling away (Departure from where we once stood) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The departure gets defined by the article. The Gathering together unto Him.
If that Word is a Plural............ Then it reads.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a Apostasies first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The apostasies would be against the Son of perdition. So there must be apostasies against the son of perdition before we are gather together with the Lord Jesus.
In the Greek, the Subject is before the Verb and the Object is after.
In the great Feast of Israel, Jesus arrived.
The subject would be great feast, the object is arrived (Jesus arrived or went to Israel)
In each of these sentences, the subject is before the verb, and the object is after the verb. Note the following:
http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/noun2dcl.html
Wife has to go to work. Thank you Deborah............ don't click on that java scripture video plug part, it came up funny in my in my browser and I don't trust it.
Mike.
I have never claimed such a thing.
When people who know just enough Greek to be dangerous, begin to change what the scriptures teach, by their "interpretation" of various "female" and Male Greek nouns and verbs, then we end up with what the Jehovah's Witness's have, and that is a bunch of twisted half truth's in a bible that no Christian would touch with a ten foot pole.
The New World Translation.
Just read for yourself.
Jesus is the First fruits. Jesus and no one else.
Jesus returns to gather His Church after the man of sin is revealed.
Jesus returns ONCE to destroy the Lawless one and resurrect the dead.
Case Closed Brother.
No fancy "explanations" needed.
No special Greek grammar rules needed.
JLB
The Jews from the OT for the most part believed in just one "coming of the Lord" .......A conquering King, a Ruler of nations, an iron rod. They overlooked the "suffering servant". 2 very distinct "comings" but they were for the most part overlooked by the OT Jews. Most thought that there was only one coming and He was to be a King that Conquered their enemies. All the while they overlooked the other "coming" as a suffering servant. Even though there were scriptures for both advents, the suffering servant was a shock to most Jews.
This is what is happening in todays age. Christians are overlooking the fact that there are 2 very distinct "comings" that are yet future.
This is what is happening in todays age. Christians are overlooking the fact that there are 2 very distinct "comings" that are yet future.
He came once already.
For those who eagerly await Him, He will come a second time....
Second means two, not three.
Unless you are speaking "Greek", like Brother Mike....
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
OH NO!!! You just did not mention the JW word did you? ACK!!! you did.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
The Lord Jesus Christ defined as the first fruit of all that sleep (dead)
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Paul is now talking about all those "IN" Christ the first fruit.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: (In Christ) Christ firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Paul is talking about this In Christ the first fruit in this order, Christ firstfuit (Those that made Jesus Lord and produced fruit) then afterward those that are just his.
Jesus can't be those following in this order because it's those IN him and he can't be in Himself.......... Use common sense here.
All about Nouns 101: A house is a noun, but where is the house?
I have just one simple question for you. If I told you to grab the keys on the table (Noun) and there were 5 pairs of keys to choose from (Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Purple) what keys did I mean?
Or
Would you need more information?
What is the answer.
Nobody said different.
Jesus himself produce first fruit though and I already gave the scripture for that. The whole article was Paul mention men in Christ Jesus and the order they followed. Jesus the first fruit was already defined before that.
Now we have to know the order of those that come after the first fruit which is exactly how it reads.
Amazing how two scriptures determines a 7 year difference in something.
Mike.
A noun is a noun is a noun...................... if the word was Apostasy (English) that is one person, look it up if you don't believe me. If it was Plural (Apostasies) it still don't define from what but that of the Son of perdition.
It's a Female noun though, that just means to depart from a previous standing.
Just like faith is a female noun. Faith in what?
It's not even that deep of Greek understanding if you understand English Nouns.
The Verb that makes up Apostasia means to just depart...... it's an action but does not denote departing from what used 15 times in the NT.
I don't know why you don't get this.........It's not that hard.
Mike.
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