Rapture Survey for CFnetians

[sheshisown]

Hi~

Yeah, I know, we just took this survey in September, however it did not include the full body of questions I want for a paper I am writting. So I hope ya'll do not mind punching the buttons once again.

We have so many topics springing up more and more often regarding the Rapture that I wanted to see if we could get an idea about the most common views of our members.

Thus this poll... Will you take a moment to post your vote?

I would like to get a general overview of the differing views held, if you desire to, please give a summary (short and sweet) if your view differs from those already posted. And thanks. :D

In Jesus ever... bonnie

 

[sheshisown]

Yeah okay~
we have four votes... and one is mine... I was waiting to save it to use as an excuse to bump this thread up later. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................................

Anybody else wanna weigh-in? We have less than 60 days to push the button...

bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

I voted for "after the tribulation". I actually want to say, "after tribulation but right before God's Wrath". Those who have been following my progression thru End Times beliefs will know I don't adhere to a future seven year tribulation period. :D

 

[sheshisown]

Thank you Vic for your participation... :D

May the buttons continue to be punched. :yes

:shades bonnie

 

[Bick]

Hi~

Yeah, I know, we just took this survey in September, however it did not include the full body of questions I want for a paper I am writting. So I hope ya'll do not mind punching the buttons once again.

We have so many topics springing up more and more often regarding the Rapture that I wanted to see if we could get an idea about the most common views of our members.

Thus this poll... Will you take a moment to post your vote?

I would like to get a general overview of the differing views held, if you desire to, please give a summary (short and sweet) if your view differs from those already posted. And thanks. :D

In Jesus ever... bonnie

MY COMMENTS: Well, polls are interesting, but they don't decide the truth. Biblical truth must come from a careful strudy of the Bible, using as literal translation as possible, and following standard rules of exegesis.

The church/body is not appointed to wrath (Rom.5:9; 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9), and will be raptured before the day of the Lord begins.

Paul instructs the Thessalonian Church in his second letter, chapter 2, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him.."

He could say this, for in his first letter, chapter 4, verses 13 through 18, he assures them that the dead in Christ will be resurredted and those alive will be changed, and together meet the Lord in the air.
The church will have spirit powered bodies, fit for the heavenlies (see 1 Cor. 15:51ff). They will not come back to the earth, as some teach. They will be experiencing all the spiritual blessings in the heavenlies God has prepared, as His heirs and joint-heirs with Christ.
Because of God's grace and mercy to the church through Christ Jesus, the church will be on display, if you will, making known the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies (Study Ephesians chapts. 1, 2 and 3).

The Messianic Reign Jesus on the earth, reckoned as a thousand years, will have Israel as the head of the nations, as royal priests, witnessing to the nations.
The church/body has no part in this.

 

[sheshisown]

Gee Bick you put a few new spins on Pre-Trib for me...
BTW~ Do you believe that what we believe about the rapture can effect our salvation?
Just wondering where you sit on that issue for possible future discussions...


bonnie :D

 

[Bick]

Gee Bick you put a few new spins on Pre-Trib for me...
BTW~ Do you believe that what we believe about the rapture can effect our salvation?
Just wondering where you sit on that issue for possible future discussions...
bonnie :D

MY COMMENTS: My goodness no, Bonnie. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any one should boast, Quoting Ephesians 2:8,9.
Our views of the rapture will not affect our salvation.

And once we have believed we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of our redemption. None of us live sinless lives in thought or deed, though we should walk close to the Lord (2 Cor.1:22; Eph. 1:13, 4:30 and 1 Thes 4:8).

Paul declares that having believed, as members of Christ's body, God declares that we are justified and have been reconciled: (JUSTIFIED: Rom. 3:24, 28; 5:1; 8:30; Gal. 2:16; Titus 3:7)
[RECONCILED: Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:21].

So, while our walk is not always perfect, yet God sees the future declaring us to have the rightousness of Christ...JUST--AS--IF--I'D--never sinned.

Bick

 

[Vic C.]

JUST--AS--IF--I'D--never sinned

Hey, that's a Southern Baptist teaching.

 

[sheshisown]

JUST--AS--IF--I'D--never sinned

Hey, that's a Southern Baptist teaching.

Hey that's also a Calvary Chapel teaching! So R we showing our oneness in Christ, or what?

Bick~ I wholeheartedly agree with your blessed witness of our salvation by grace thru faith in Christ alone. :yes I am checking your stance as part of my survey... I have a desire (not an instruction from a professor) to write a paper on this most important issue of our hope in Christ, so I will be gathering more info after this.

I have already begun writing - starting in the middle - there is no telling where my writing may begin sometimes... God only knows!

In His preservation... bonnie

 

[XTruth]

There are 4 Raptures of righteous humans to come, one has already happened. There are 5 total Raptures that are part of the first resurrection. There is, by definition, one Rapture that makes up the second resurrection of the dead. For a total of 6 Raptures, which one are you talking about? If it is the only one taught, being the Rapture of those who are alive in Christ and in heaven with Christ, then it happens before the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation (Daniel's 70th week). Good luck with your paper.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

There are 4 Raptures of righteous humans to come, one has already happened. There are 5 total Raptures that are part of the first resurrection. There is, by definition, one Rapture that makes up the second resurrection of the dead. For a total of 6 Raptures, which one are you talking about? If it is the only one taught, being the Rapture of those who are alive in Christ and in heaven with Christ, then it happens before the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation (Daniel's 70th week). Good luck with your paper.

W-H-A-T?

:help

I'll punch some buttons for ya, sheshisown -- but XTruth, can you please explain???

 

[XTruth]

There are 4 Raptures of righteous humans to come, one has already happened. There are 5 total Raptures that are part of the first resurrection. There is, by definition, one Rapture that makes up the second resurrection of the dead. For a total of 6 Raptures, which one are you talking about? If it is the only one taught, being the Rapture of those who are alive in Christ and in heaven with Christ, then it happens before the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation (Daniel's 70th week). Good luck with your paper.

W-H-A-T?

:help

I'll punch some buttons for ya, sheshisown -- but XTruth, can you please explain???

Sure, love to.

A Rapture is when one is caught up in their immortal, glorified body consisting of the spirit, soul, and body; their state of righteousness is unforfeitable at that point and will never see death again, or at all....at least for the faithful believers. (They are part of the first resurrection)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Right now, the saints in heaven are just as excited about the Rapture as the few Christians are on earth that look for this day. The saints in heaven are just soul and spirit and await their glorified body with great anticipation. As seen from Rev.20:4-6 above, the first resurrection began with Christ, as He is the first-fruit of the resurrection and the rest of us look for His appearing so that we will also be as He is. The end of the first resurrection (Rev.20:5) is a little after the martyred saints are Raptured like the saints in heaven now will be right before us who are still living will be (1 Thes.4:13-17). The martyred Tribulation saints are just soul and spirit when they cry for justice in Heaven (Rev.6:10), but they will ride back with all the glorified saints who will rule and reign with Christ 1,000 years (Rev.7:9-17; 19:11-16).



(1st Rapture) Jesus and the many saints that were resurrected after His resurrection (1 Cor.15:20, 23; Mat.27:52-53; Eph.4:8-10)

(2nd Rapture) The dead and alive in Christ before the Tribulation begins (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

(3rd Rapture) The 144,000 Jews saved in the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. They'll be caught up right before the middle of the Tribulation (Rev.12:5).

(4th Rapture) The great multitude of tribulation saints who are saved after Rapture 2, above, and during the whole of Daniel's 70th week (Rev.6:1-19:21). The first martyrs of this period are told to rest until the rest of them are killed (Rev.6:9-11) when vengeance will be taken and all raptured in time for the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev.7:9-17; 15:2-4; 20:4-6). Even those killed by the beast in the last 3 1/2 years of this week have part in the first resurrection (Rev.20:4-6). This proves their rapture in time for the marriage supper (Rev.19:1-10) and in time to come back with Christ (Rev.19:11-21; Jude 14; Zech.14:5).

(5th Rapture) The two witnesses, ending the first resurrection which began with the resurrection of Christ (Rev.11:7-12).

(6th Rapture) The last Rapture, when the rest of the souls and spirits of man will be re-united with their body, is the second resurrection in order to be judged at the great white thrown judgment and cast alive into the lake of fire as an eternal monument to show the future generations that sin does not pay (Isa.66:22-24), blessed is the man who is part of the first resurrection, b/c the second death has no authority over him.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry in advance for any bluntness below. You must understand that once I became aware that Daniel 9:26-27 is all about Jesus and nothing to do with an antichrist and some future 70th. week, my whole perspective concerning End Times and related scripture has changed.

The Bible speaks of two and only two resurrections. Sorry XTruth, but that is far from a literal exegesis of Scripture. You even alluded to two resurrections at the beginning of your post.

(3rd Rapture) The 144,000 Jews saved in the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. They'll be caught up right before the middle of the Tribulation (Rev.12:5).

Rev. 12:5 says no such thing. If you read it literally and not metaphorically, this is correct: This verse is symbolic of the ascension of Jesus into Heaven and seated at the right hand of the Father.

(4th Rapture) The great multitude of tribulation saints who are saved after Rapture 2, above, and during the whole of Daniel's 70th week (Rev.6:1-19:21). The first martyrs of this period are told to rest until the rest of them are killed (Rev.6:9-11)...

Now... this is metaphorical, not literal, unless you believe souls and their blood can speak. I won't even go into the very Jewish (Hebrew) nature of Rev 6:9. Also, this very verse and passage may very well be referring to all martyrs throughout all of Christendom's history.

(5th Rapture) The two witnesses, ending the first resurrection which began with the resurrection of Christ (Rev.11:7-12).

This can't really be considered a "rapture" and it certainly isn't the end of the first resurrection. The first resurrection ended here: Rev 20:5

(6th Rapture) The last Rapture, when the rest of the souls and spirits of man will be re-united with their body, is the second resurrection in order to be judged at the great white thrown judgment and cast alive into the lake of fire as an eternal monument to show the future generations that sin does not pay.

Na ah! This is the end; no "future generations"! Also, where does it say those of the second resurrection of Rev 20:12 get bodies? Where in the Bible does it say the unrighteous get bodies?

Two death; two resurrections. Both are spoken about in scripture in pairs.

 

[XTruth]

Sorry in advance for any bluntness below. You must understand that once I became aware that Daniel 9:26-27 is all about Jesus and nothing to do with an antichrist and some future 70th. week, my whole perspective concerning End Times and related scripture has changed.

The Bible speaks of two and only two resurrections. Sorry XTruth, but that is far from a literal exegesis of Scripture. You even alluded to two resurrections at the beginning of your post.

(3rd Rapture) The 144,000 Jews saved in the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. They'll be caught up right before the middle of the Tribulation (Rev.12:5).

Rev. 12:5 says no such thing. If you read it literally and not metaphorically, this is correct: This verse is symbolic of the ascension of Jesus into Heaven and seated at the right hand of the Father.

[quote:vo1lmxv8](4th Rapture) The great multitude of tribulation saints who are saved after Rapture 2, above, and during the whole of Daniel's 70th week (Rev.6:1-19:21). The first martyrs of this period are told to rest until the rest of them are killed (Rev.6:9-11)...

Now... this is metaphorical, not literal, unless you believe souls and their blood can speak. I won't even go into the very Jewish (Hebrew) nature of Rev 6:9. Also, this very verse and passage may very well be referring to all martyrs throughout all of Christendom's history.

(5th Rapture) The two witnesses, ending the first resurrection which began with the resurrection of Christ (Rev.11:7-12).

This can't really be considered a "rapture" and it certainly isn't the end of the first resurrection. The first resurrection ended here: Rev 20:5

(6th Rapture) The last Rapture, when the rest of the souls and spirits of man will be re-united with their body, is the second resurrection in order to be judged at the great white thrown judgment and cast alive into the lake of fire as an eternal monument to show the future generations that sin does not pay.

Na ah! This is the end; no "future generations"! Also, where does it say those of the second resurrection of Rev 20:12 get bodies? Where in the Bible does it say the unrighteous get bodies?

Two death; two resurrections. Both are spoken about in scripture in pairs.[/quote:vo1lmxv8]

No need to apologies for bluntness. I've been apart of Christian message boards for a while . But please give me the same wiggle room...I sound blunt also, but in no way am I angry when I write posts.

There are two resurrections only. The first resurrection takes place in a 2,000 year period. This should be obvious in that Jesus was the first of all who will be resurrected unto their glorified state. That happened almost 2 thousand yrs ago. Blessed are they who have part in the first resurrection (Rev.20:6)...because cursed are they who have part in the 2nd resurrection (Rev.20:11-15).

As far as the metaphorical...I'll give you the rule I adhere to throughout Scripture, you obviously use some other way. The principle is to literalize instead of spiritualizing. Statements of fact and historical accounts are accepted as such. The rule is to take the Bible literal wherein it is at all possible; if symbolic, figurative, or typical language is used, then look for the literal truth it intends to convey.

The 144,000 are Raptured right before the middle of the Tribulation (Rev.12:5). They make their debut in the first part of the 7 yr Trib (Rev.7:1-8). They are Raptured in the middle of the Trib. (Rev.12:5... they are "caught up"). They are standing in heaven while the last half of the Trib. is going on...this can be plainly known (Rev.14:1-5). Never does the Bible say they died or were killed...but literally, caught up, just like the saints dead and alive right before the Tribulation begins (1 Thes.4:13-17; etc.).

The Trib. saints are literally new saints from the time after the Rapture. Their souls do speak, as they are in heaven with the literal other saints that are present in heaven that are merely soul and spirit and awaiting the resurrection for their glorified and eternal, incorrupible, immortal body. The souls of the Trib. saints will be able to speak...not their blood, which was only referenced as to asking God when He will avenge their blood (Rev.6:10)(since they were murdered for their faith by an evil and unjust government).

The two witnesses are Raptured...it is really a Rapture. They are dead in Christ. The soul and spirit of a man doesn't sleep or stay in the body...it goes to heaven to await the resurrection of the living...or to hell to await the resurrection of the dead. They are reunited with their bodies 3 1/2 days after their death and taken directly to heaven. This is in Rev.11, but their story begins and ends in Rev.11, even though it is the entire period of the Great Tribulation. Their resurrection is after the great multitude...don't be confused b/c Rev.20:5 is spoken about after Rev.11.

This is not the end, there are future generations. Who will we rule and reign over but the future generation? Rev.20:1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." The mortal humans, like we are now, who are still alive when the Trib. is over will be the ones who repopulate the earth...future generations (Isa.65:20). They are the ones who Satan will have the opportunity to deceive at the end of the Millennium and they will fight against God and be destroyed when God comes to set up His eternal throne and the New Jerusalem here on earth....just like Satan does with many at the end of the Trib. when Jesus comes to set up His throne here on earth. All will be tested and proved.


The damned will be resurrected in order to be judged and cast into the lake of fire in order for God to render every work according to their flesh. Dan.12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." John 5:28-29 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Rev.20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." ...thus, the second resurrection.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

Okay, thanks. I was only aware of the word being used in reference to the final rapture, and did not realize it could be applied multiple times...

 

[mondar]

I am going to admit that I am still working on some of this. My only comment is that I think there are three resurrections.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
I think what I am saying is in accord with those who mention two resurrections with one exception. Those who number the resurrections as two are not counting Christs resurrection. Maybe this is a very minor point, but in the above passage the resurrections are listed as having an order. I think this is a chronological order. First was Christ. "Then" there is a resurrection of those who are Christs (saved) and finally a resurrection of the unjust (damned). Revelation also mentions two of the resurrections.

 

[XTruth]

I am going to admit that I am still working on some of this. My only comment is that I think there are three resurrections.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
I think what I am saying is in accord with those who mention two resurrections with one exception. Those who number the resurrections as two are not counting Christs resurrection. Maybe this is a very minor point, but in the above passage the resurrections are listed as having an order. I think this is a chronological order. First was Christ. "Then" there is a resurrection of those who are Christs (saved) and finally a resurrection of the unjust (damned). Revelation also mentions two of the resurrections.

Ok, I see what you are saying Will you look at the post on page one that tells, in bold-face, the raptures 1-6? That will explain the conclusion you have come to a little further. There are only 2 resurrections...agreed. The resurrection of the just is a period of about 2,000 yrs since Jesus was the beginning of the first resurrection...agreed. Take a look into that when you have time and tell me what you think...PM or here. Raptures 1-5 are all the sum of the first resurrection.

Information taught to me by the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible on page 175 in the N.T.
aLL bIBLE REFERENCES FROM THAT STUDY were researched by me to make sure it was the Word of God and not the philosophies of man.

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for responding X. No problem if we just agree to disagree, because I am having a very hard time digesting your timeline of events.

As far as the metaphorical...I'll give you the rule I adhere to throughout Scripture, you obviously use some other way. The principle is to literalize instead of spiritualizing. Statements of fact and historical accounts are accepted as such. The rule is to take the Bible literal wherein it is at all possible; if symbolic, figurative, or typical language is used, then look for the literal truth it intends to convey.

Actually, I'm reading scripture very literal. When Rev 4:1 tells me a voice tells John to "come up hither" It only mentions John, so I take that to mean John and only John got a bird's eye view of things happening on Earth from Heaven.

When Rev 12:5 reads that the man child was caught up to God, I take that as it is, I add nothing more to it. The obvious meaning, when taking all scripture into account, is the man child is Jesus, just Jesus, no one else.

When we read Rev 14:1, we read the Lamb is standing on Mt. Sion with the 144,000, which had been sealed (re. Rev 7:4) Mt. Sion is a physical mountain on Earth. Jesus is on Earth with the sealed remnant which never left the earth. I don't interpret the word "redeemed" to mean remove. It simply means to be "bought back". We Christians are also redeemed but we're still here, are we not? Webster's says; "to be free from the consequences of sin"

Often a mistake is made; that mistake is taking the bulk of Rev. 12-14 and trying to squeeze it into the basic chronology of Revelation. It doesn't fit. If anything, Rev. 12-14 is a embellishment of events between Rev. 6:7-9 to the latter part of Rev.11. Often, apocalyptic writers would "backpeddle" as they write to tell of events from a different angle. This is what John does between Rev.12-14. Some would refer to this period as the "second half" of the 70th. week.

Speaking of Rev. 6, I read 6:9 metaphorically. It has to be read that way. It literally does not mean souls talk. Revelation was written in a very "Jewish" way with 1st. century Jewish readers in mind. Their understanding of souls and the soul's relationship to the blood is different than ours. The souls under the alter has more to do with sacrificial blood and how it had to drip down the legs of the alter and into a trough below the alter. My terminology may be a bit off, but that's the gist of it.

Ok, I see you follow Dake, so now I at least know where you are coming from.

Hi Mondar... welcome. You may be correct but I viewed Jesus' resurrection as part of the first resurrection.

Anyway, I am no stranger to the many End Times beliefs and I could go on... but I have derailed Bonnie's thread and I'm sorry.

 

[mondar]

Ok, I see what you are saying Will you look at the post on page one that tells, in bold-face, the raptures 1-6? That will explain the conclusion you have come to a little further. There are only 2 resurrections...agreed. The resurrection of the just is a period of about 2,000 yrs since Jesus was the beginning of the first resurrection...agreed. Take a look into that when you have time and tell me what you think...PM or here. Raptures 1-5 are all the sum of the first resurrection.

Information taught to me by the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible on page 175 in the N.T.
aLL bIBLE REFERENCES FROM THAT STUDY were researched by me to make sure it was the Word of God and not the philosophies of man.

What are you calling a "Rapture?" What is the relationship between a "rapture" and a resurrection?

Sorry for not answering your questions, but but I am at a loss to understand what you are saying in sufficient depth that I can comment. It would have to be explored more.

 

[XTruth]

I completely forgot to vote...just did. Thanks for responding back Vic, there are easy Scriptural, and even common sense ways to know that the manchild is not Jesus being caught up in the mid Trib., as well as the others. But I mihjt have to reply to that later in the other Rapture thread...or I know I've even seen at least 2 144,000 threads. Or, agree to disagree, since I don't hold our two views in importance as far as leading one astray from the faith.