Rapture to heaven in 1 Thess. 4

[Freedman]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

 

[hawkman]

For reference ​

1 Thessalonians 4:16 Context​

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[LeviR]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

I place the judgments of Revelation to occur after the rapture.
These judgements will be executed by Christ and his raptured saints.
They operate behind the scenes. They will not be directly seen by what’s occurring on earth. They are the directors.

However, when these judgments occur, there will be mortal believers on earth. So there must be a period of time between the rapture and a development of believes in Jerusalem.

It has to be in the land of Israel or Jerusalem because that is where the judgments take place.
The persecuted believers will be in Israel or specifically Jerusalem.

It was around 49 years after Christ ascended to heaven when Jerusalem was attacked by the Romans.
This might indicate the time between the rapture and the judgments.
Gives a period of time for believers to develop.

 

[RandyK]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

Well, for 1800 years Christ's Coming from the clouds was viewed as a "Coming," and not a temporary sfop in the clouds before Coming 7 years later. The closest thing to a Pretribulational Coming was based on the idea that Christ was not Coming Back to visit God's Wrath upon the Church, but only upon the wicked who follow the Antichrist.

And so, Christ was always viewed as Coming Back to defeat the Antichrist, but to spare the Church the destruction that will send the wicked to Eternal Punishment. The final outpouring of God's Wrath was viewed not just as the conflagration of war, but more, the infliction of death upon those whose destiny would be in the Lake of Fire, or Eternal Punishment.

The dead in Christ were viewed, by Paul, as having their spirits present with Christ in heaven where God is said to be. And so, there would be no Coming Back for the spirits of departed saints, since their spirits were already with Christ.

The idea of Resurrection never had to be with resuscitating the old physical bodies, since they are eaten by worms, and have returned to the "dust." There can be no reconstruction of materials that are essentially gone and returned to the earth.

Rather, Resurrection simply means to have the person who has lost his body have that physical existence restored, even if by the construction of an entirely new body. In this case, Paul indicated that our new Resurrection Bodies would be quite different from our current mortal bodies--not non-corporeal bodies, but still, something evolved well beyond what they have been, in the same way, perhaps, that the leaves of a flower look nothing like the flowers they will ultimately generate.

As for 1 Thes 4, then, the idea has to do with Christ Coming Back for those who are still alive on earth, even as the spirits of the deceased saints are already with him. He will simply restore their physical existence at the same time the living saints are gathered at Christ's Return from Heaven.

No, nothing in the passage is really dealing with the logistics of Jesus' Return for his saints. That Coming, by virtue of referring back to Dan 7, has to do with bringing God's Kingdom to earth in a new way by the establishment of the rule of the saints. To do that, the dead saints must receive new glorified bodies, while the mortal saints must be transfered to be like Jesus in order to join with him as he establishes God's Kingdom on earth.

 

[LeviR]

Well, for 1800 years Christ's Coming from the clouds was viewed as a "Coming," and not a temporary sfop in the clouds before Coming 7 years later. The closest thing to a Pretribulational Coming was based on the idea that Christ was not Coming Back to visit God's Wrath upon the Church, but only upon the wicked who follow the Antichrist.

And so, Christ was always viewed as Coming Back to defeat the Antichrist, but to spare the Church the destruction that will send the wicked to Eternal Punishment. The final outpouring of God's Wrath was viewed not just as the conflagration of war, but more, the infliction of death upon those whose destiny would be in the Lake of Fire, or Eternal Punishment.

The dead in Christ were viewed, by Paul, as having their spirits present with Christ in heaven where God is said to be. And so, there would be no Coming Back for the spirits of departed saints, since their spirits were already with Christ.

The idea of Resurrection never had to be with resuscitating the old physical bodies, since they are eaten by worms, and have returned to the "dust." There can be no reconstruction of materials that are essentially gone and returned to the earth.

Rather, Resurrection simply means to have the person who has lost his body have that physical existence restored, even if by the construction of an entirely new body. In this case, Paul indicated that our new Resurrection Bodies would be quite different from our current mortal bodies--not non-corporeal bodies, but still, something evolved well beyond what they have been, in the same way, perhaps, that the leaves of a flower look nothing like the flowers they will ultimately generate.

As for 1 Thes 4, then, the idea has to do with Christ Coming Back for those who are still alive on earth, even as the spirits of the deceased saints are already with him. He will simply restore their physical existence at the same time the living saints are gathered at Christ's Return from Heaven.

No, nothing in the passage is really dealing with the logistics of Jesus' Return for his saints. That Coming, by virtue of referring back to Dan 7, has to do with bringing God's Kingdom to earth in a new way by the establishment of the rule of the saints. To do that, the dead saints must receive new glorified bodies, while the mortal saints must be transfered to be like Jesus in order to join with him as he establishes God's Kingdom on earth.

Those of us who don’t believe man is given an immortal soul at his creation, but rather becomes a living soul by creation, believe the faithful who die in Christ, sleep in Christ.
They awake when he calls them.
This is the reason why faith would be worthless if there is no resurrection of the dead.
The resurrected bodies of the faithful are immortal bodies.
The resurrected bodies of the unjust come after the rapture. At the great white throne judgment. Their old mortal bodies are restored to them because they face a second death.

After the judgments upon God’s people and the nations is complete, the kingdom of God is established on earth.

The raptured ones operate as the angels of God do today. And the mortal believers operate as the kingdom of God did when David became king.
The whole system is restored.
Christ will rule from the temple throne which is above the mercy seat, and the glorified saints as invisible angels.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Also read Rev 19:11-21 as all these scriptures show that there is no pretrib before the seven trumpets or the seven vial judgements as we will all go through the tribulations of those days according to scripture.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture no matter how they make scripture to line up with this false theory. There is no seven years, but that of only seven trumpets sounding. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.

Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a thief and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Freedman]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Yes, but that scripture is stating he descends from heaven, not that he goes back up to heaven with the saints...and do you see any problem having this occur after the tribulation?

 

[Freedman]

I place the judgments of Revelation to occur after the rapture.
These judgements will be executed by Christ and his raptured saints.
They operate behind the scenes. They will not be directly seen by what’s occurring on earth. They are the directors.

However, when these judgments occur, there will be mortal believers on earth. So there must be a period of time between the rapture and a development of believes in Jerusalem.

It has to be in the land of Israel or Jerusalem because that is where the judgments take place.
The persecuted believers will be in Israel or specifically Jerusalem.

It was around 49 years after Christ ascended to heaven when Jerusalem was attacked by the Romans.
This might indicate the time between the rapture and the judgments.
Gives a period of time for believers to develop.

Yes, you place the judgments of revelation after the rapture, but even in pre trib what scripture do you use that shows the living and the dead saints ascend up to heaven?

 

[Freedman]

The dead in Christ were viewed, by Paul, as having their spirits present with Christ in heaven where God is said to be. And so, there would be no Coming Back for the spirits of departed saints, since their spirits were already with Christ.

Yes but it specifically states both the living and the dead rise up to meet Christ in the air and they are in immortal bodies...what happens to them when they meet christ in the air...?

 

[Freedman]

As for 1 Thes 4, then, the idea has to do with Christ Coming Back for those who are still alive on earth, even as the spirits of the deceased saints are already with him.

But it says both the living and the dead will be changed into immortal bodies, and then the dead in christ will rise first...where do they rise to? Both the living and the dead rise up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air as he is descending down...I believe it is at this point where they meet Jesus in the air that and that he takes them all up to heaven for they have to get up there in order for Jesus to return with all his saints to the earth. Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven...how did they get there?

 

[Freedman]

Also read Rev 19:11-21 as all these scriptures show that there is no pretrib before the seven trumpets or the seven vial judgements as we will all go through the tribulations of those days according to scripture.

Yes I agree there is no pre trib rapture...the question was where in the scripture do you see the saints being taken up to heaven...Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven ...how did they get there?

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes I agree there is no pre trib rapture...the question was where in the scripture do you see the saints being taken up to heaven...Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven ...how did they get there?

The only people that are in heaven is God, Jesus and all the holy angels. What goes back to God when we physically die is the very breath God breathed in us making us a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

No one has ever gone up to heaven when they died, but wait in their graves until the time Jesus returns on the last day.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Scripture teaches us that all w, wait until the last day when Christ returns and the angels come and gather us up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, you place the judgments of revelation after the rapture, but even in pre trib what scripture do you use that shows the living and the dead saints ascend up to heaven?

That’s where they meet the Lord. In the air above. The heavens.
The saints are with Christ when the seals are opened.
They are represented by the 4 living creatures and 24 elders.

They are directing the judgments taking place on the earth.

 

[RandyK]

But it says both the living and the dead will be changed into immortal bodies, and then the dead in christ will rise first...where do they rise to? Both the living and the dead rise up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air as he is descending down...I believe it is at this point where they meet Jesus in the air that and that he takes them all up to heaven for they have to get up there in order for Jesus to return with all his saints to the earth. Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven...how did they get there?

The idea that they have to "go up" in order to "come back with Christ" is not there, in my judgment. To "rise" has nothing to do with logistics in travelling from earth to heaven and back. Rather, to "rise" has to do with receiving physical bodies again after those bodies have died.

To "rise 1st" would refer to the idea that the dead saints will not be neglected in the event in which the angels gather up the living saints. The living saints are gathered up by angels so that they are given new heavenly bodies. The thought was that if this is so, then the dead saints are being left out.

And so, Paul said no, the dead saints will "rise," not meaning they will rise from the earth, but rather, that they will rise in the sense of receiving physical bodies once again, having lost them already. I think "rise" should be therefore understood not in the sense of being gathered *with* the living saints, but rather, not being neglected from receiving glorified bodies just as the living saints do.

Technically, the dead saints do not participate in the Rapture/seizure of the living saints. But neither are they left out of the event of receiving new bodies, just as the gathered saints do.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, but that scripture is stating he descends from heaven, not that he goes back up to heaven with the saints...and do you see any problem having this occur after the tribulation?

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They are going up into the clouds to be with Jesus in verse 17 . Where do you think heaven is ?

 

[Freedman]

The only people that are in heaven is God, Jesus and all the holy angels. What goes back to God when we physically die is the very breath God breathed in us making us a living soul.

Yes I agree God and the holy angels are in heaven...Rev. 19 says "And I heard a great voice of much people in heaven saying alleluia; Salvation and glory, and honor and power unto the Lord our God...how did these people get up there?

 

[LeviR]

The idea that they have to "go up" in order to "come back with Christ" is not there, in my judgment. To "rise" has nothing to do with logistics in travelling from earth to heaven and back. Rather, to "rise" has to do with receiving physical bodies again after those bodies have died.

To "rise 1st" would refer to the idea that the dead saints will not be neglected in the event in which the angels gather up the living saints. The living saints are gathered up by angels so that they are given new heavenly bodies. The thought was that if this is so, then the dead saints are being left out.

And so, Paul said no, the dead saints will "rise," not meaning they will rise from the earth, but rather, that they will rise in the sense of receiving physical bodies once again, having lost them already. I think "rise" should be therefore understood not in the sense of being gathered *with* the living saints, but rather, not being neglected from receiving glorified bodies just as the living saints do.

Technically, the dead saints do not participate in the Rapture/seizure of the living saints. But neither are they left out of the event of receiving new bodies, just as the gathered saints do.

They go up because that’s where the throne of God is set for the judgments to take place on earth.
God descends and they go up.
After the judgments have passed upon the people and the nations, then they come down where the kingdom of God is established on earth.
The ones who come down are angelic like. No one can see them unless they choose to be seen.

 

[Freedman]

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They are going up into the clouds to be with Jesus in verse 17 . Where do you think heaven is ?

Yes of course but it specifically states that Jesus will DESCEND from heaven...in other words he will no longer be in heaven, and has gone DOWN from heaven to the clouds...and then we go UP to meet him in the air...so if Jesus is not in heaven because he has descended down from heaven then when we meet him in the clouds he will need to turn around and take us up there to the heaven from whence he came down from..

 

[Freedman]

The idea that they have to "go up" in order to "come back with Christ" is not there, in my judgment.

Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven..how did they get there? They then come back with Jesus as it states, the Lord my god shall come and all the saints with thee ...Jesus is up in heaven now, so if all the saints are to come WITH him at the second coming, then they have to be there first

 

[LeviR]

Yes of course but it specifically states that Jesus will DESCEND from heaven...in other words he will no longer be in heaven, and has gone DOWN from heaven to the clouds...and then we go UP to meet him in the air...so if Jesus is not in heaven because he has descended down from heaven then when we meet him in the clouds he will need to turn around and take us up there to the heaven from whence he came down from..

There are three heavens. The heaven where God now dwells, the heavens above the earth, and the heavens upon the earth.
God dwells in the heaven of heavens.
The heavens of the earth are the rulers of the earth.

When God descends, He descends to the heavens above the earth to bring His judgments on the heavens of the earth.