Rapture to heaven in 1 Thess. 4

[LeviR]

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

But that is after the judgments have come upon God’s people and the nations.

 

[Freedman]

Point #1

• if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This shows us that God will bring with Jesus Christ, those who have died and are in heaven...

We know Jesus Christ is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father.

So, if God brings the dead in Christ with Him, then it's clear that they are with Him in heaven.


Do you agree?

I know this was not to me, but thought I might add something here, because this has been something I have misunderstood for a long time. The problem becomes apparent when you try to reconcile this perspective that right now the saints are in the third heaven with God, and that when the rapture happens they will come down from the third heaven...so hang with me just a bit and try to reconcile this with 1 Thess. 4 The thought is that the saints are now with Jesus in heaven and that at the rapture they will be coming DOWN with him to the clouds which are in the first heaven, but 1 Thess. 4 shows the dead in Christ going UP to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, in other words, they can't both be coming down from heaven TO the clouds below them and also be coming UP from the earth to the clouds above.

Keep that thought in your mind and then see how 1 Thess. 4 says..'the dead in Christ shall RISE first, not 'the dead in Christ shall DESCEND first', but to make it even clearer it says then the living will be caught up together WITH THE DEAD, (not the living will be caught TO MEET the dead, but together WITH the dead. So repeat, not to MEET the dead but rather they rise together WITH the dead.

The only MEETING taking place is that both the living and the dead are MEETING JESUS, who has came down from the third heaven to the first heaven.

And this does not do away with the scripture you quoted that the God will bring those who sleep with him, but the intersection point where the meeting takes place is in the clouds. When it says God will bring the dead with him, it means he will bring the dead who have met him in the clouds down with him, but not from the third heaven. So in summary, Jesus comes down to the clouds and the dead and the living go up to meet Jesus in the clouds, then Jesus and the saints come down to the earth to set up the Kingdom of God on earth.

And so when we see Rev. 19 where there are much people in heaven...it can only mean there are much people who have been caught up to the clouds which are in the first heaven, not the third heaven.

We can also see this with the two prophets who were dead in the street in Rev. It says the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...so they have now been resurrected and given immortal bodies, for it says we shall ALL be changed at the same time, but then they hear a voice saying 'come up hither,' but then look where they go...

They do not ascend up to the third heaven...it says they ascended up to heaven IN A CLOUD....there are no clouds up in the third heaven...they do not go to the third heaven, they go to the first heaven where the clouds are, which is exactly where the dead in Christ and the living go in 1 Thess. 4...they go UP TO THE CLOUDS, and the Lord comes DOWN TO THE CLOUDS,' and that's where all the living and the dead saints meet and then all the saints come down to the earth...Blessings to you in Christ Jesus

 

[Freedman]

My point was, these things come upon His people and the nations during the day of judgment. But the Lord himself will not be seen. Nor his immortal saints., Jesus will not be seen afflicting plague on anyone. Nor will he be seen fighting with the sword. Nor calling down hail and fire and brimstone.

The following quotes show that everyone will see Jesus when he comes.... It says when he comes at the second coming, EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM ..(Rev. 1:7) even those who pierced him...so the wicked dead will also be resurrected at the second coming...but it also says in Matthew 24:30 that when he comes 'and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of heaven...Jesus even told Caiphas who was a wicked man that HE WOULD SEE HIM when he comes in the clouds (Matt. 24:64) "Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said, nevertheless I say unto you Hereafter YOU SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven...Blessings to you..

 

[Freedman]

I know this was not to me, but thought I might add something here, because this has been something I have misunderstood for a long time. The problem becomes apparent when you try to reconcile this perspective that right now the saints are in the third heaven with God, and that when the rapture happens they will come down from the third heaven...so hang with me just a bit and try to reconcile this with 1 Thess. 4 The thought is that the saints are now with Jesus in heaven and that at the rapture they will be coming DOWN with him to the clouds which are in the first heaven, but 1 Thess. 4 shows the dead in Christ going UP to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, in other words, they can't both be coming down from heaven TO the clouds below them and also be coming UP from the earth to the clouds above.

Keep that thought in your mind and then see how 1 Thess. 4 says..'the dead in Christ shall RISE first, not 'the dead in Christ shall DESCEND first', but to make it even clearer it says then the living will be caught up together WITH THE DEAD, (not the living will be caught TO MEET the dead, but together WITH the dead. So repeat, not to MEET the dead but rather they rise together WITH the dead.

The only MEETING taking place is that both the living and the dead are MEETING JESUS, who has came down from the third heaven to the first heaven.

And this does not do away with the scripture you quoted that the God will bring those who sleep with him, but the intersection point where the meeting takes place is in the clouds. When it says God will bring the dead with him, it means he will bring the dead who have met him in the clouds down with him, but not from the third heaven. So in summary, Jesus comes down to the clouds and the dead and the living go up to meet Jesus in the clouds, then Jesus and the saints come down to the earth to set up the Kingdom of God on earth.

And so when we see Rev. 19 where there are much people in heaven...it can only mean there are much people who have been caught up to the clouds which are in the first heaven, not the third heaven.

We can also see this with the two prophets who were dead in the street in Rev. It says the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...so they have now been resurrected and given immortal bodies, for it says we shall ALL be changed at the same time, but then they hear a voice saying 'come up hither,' but then look where they go...

They do not ascend up to the third heaven...it says they ascended up to heaven IN A CLOUD....there are no clouds up in the third heaven...they do not go to the third heaven, they go to the first heaven where the clouds are, which is exactly where the dead in Christ and the living go in 1 Thess. 4...they go UP TO THE CLOUDS, and the Lord comes DOWN TO THE CLOUDS,' and that's where all the living and the dead saints meet and then all the saints come down to the earth...Blessings to you in Christ Jesus

Also wanted to say it is not a situation where the spirit that has returned to God is coming down to the clouds to meet a dead body arising to the clouds where the dead body is then made alive...NO..the two prophets show an entirely different protocol ...in that they are STILL ON THE GROUND, and then the spirit of life enters them, and it is AT THIS POINT, they are resurrected and receive their immortal bodies..the reason I am saying this is that they HEAR THE VOICE telling them to come up hither...they could not hear it if they were still dead until they get to the cloud...the other thing it points to is that the spirit comes directly down into their bodies from God ...it has nothing to do with meeting anyone in a cloud yet...but then they ascend up to heaven in a cloud...and that is where they meet Jesus coming down...blessings..

 

[Freedman]

As I said, to "rise" means to be resurrected into new bodies because the old ones had been lost. It has nothing to do with the logistics of travelling from the earth and into the earth, or vice versa. It has nothing to do with the dead saints rising up into the air.

The first thing is 'to rise' does not mean resurrected in to new bodies...the two prophets had been resurrected and
stood upon their feet, but they did not rise up to the cloud until they heard the voice saying 'come up hither...' Here you said ' The gift of a new physical body takes place *in heaven,* and does not "rise" from the earth.' However the two prophets state they are changed on the ground before leaving the earth...

 

[locust]

The following quotes show that everyone will see Jesus when he comes.... It says when he comes at the second coming, EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM ..(Rev. 1:7) even those who pierced him...so the wicked dead will also be resurrected at the second coming...but it also says in Matthew 24:30 that when he comes 'and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of heaven...Jesus even told Caiphas who was a wicked man that HE WOULD SEE HIM when he comes in the clouds (Matt. 24:64) "Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said, nevertheless I say unto you Hereafter YOU SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven...Blessings to you..

'' EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM'' you don't see a problem with that ?

 

[LeviR]

'' EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM'' you don't see a problem with that ?

He must have grew a little bit since he ascended.

 

[RandyK]

He must have grew a little bit since he ascended.

Yea, I've always been a little bothered by this statement, figuring it was some kind of figure of speech. Some have thought "every eye will see him" will be fulfilled by modern telecommunications--perhaps some kind of internet broadcast on TV screens across the world. But it is more likely something intended to be at least partly understood in the day the prophecy was given, or it would never make sense to the listeners/readers.

My own take is that this idea is similar to the OT prophetic declaration that "all Israel will know that I am the Lord" in matters of both national judgment and national salvation. It is an indication that Christ's Coming will bring changes to the political conditions throughout the world affecting every single individual.

What people will actually "see" is doubtful just Jesus the man himself, but rather, the impact his Coming will make. After all Jesus himself said that his Coming would not be like earthly imposters, but rather, like lightning reaching from East to West.

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Jesus, at the time, was describing his Coming as inclusive of his more immediate Coming, to bring judgment to Israel in 70 AD. God would bring the Romans, like eagles, to Jerusalem, because of Israel's failure to receive their Messiah. Jesus' 1st Coming would bring begin with a judgment against Israel that will end with his judgment against the entire world.

 

[Oseas]

Hello- The question is if one is to strictly read 1 Thess. 4:13-17 I was wanting to know if there is specifically anything in this text that states the dead in Christ rise to heaven or does it just say they rise to meet the Lord who descends down from heaven...It does not specifically mention the Lord turns around and takes them up to heaven...I am thinking the verse that must show this is that Jesus said if he goes away he will come again and receive us unto himself that where he is there we might be also...I would also like some input on why this seems to be presented in a pre tribulation time frame, when it could just as easily be shown to happen after the tribulation. Thank you

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-14) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(the same cloud of Matthew 17:5, and Acts 1:9, combined with Isaiah 4:5, take a look) to meet the Lord in the AIR(to meet the Lord in high places in Christ, 3rd heaven, heavenly place-John 14:2-3 combined with 2Corinthians 12:1-4, and Luke 20:35-36): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Amen

So, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Matthew 24:15), and with the trump of GOD (1Corinthians 15:51-55 combined with Philippians 3:20-21, and Revelation 11:15-18 and mainly Revelation 12:7-12, and 1Corinthians 15:24-28, take a look).

Happy New Year, or Happy 2025, it is and will be exclusivelly for the true people of GOD that dwell in heavenly places in Christ(John 1:12-13 and 17:13-17 combined with Ephesians 1:3-8);
But to the multitudes and multitudes of the Evil's world, woe of them, there will be only and only severe and strong and intense punishments, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, sons of Devil, in LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:6 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3 and Daniel 7:26-27, and Daniel 2:44-45, take a look).

Matthew 25:6 and 10 combined with Revelation 22:17 and 14.

Get ready

 

[RandyK]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-14) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(the same cloud of Matthew 17:5, and Acts 1:9, combined with Isaiah 4:5, take a look) to meet the Lord in the AIR(to meet the Lord in high places in Christ, 3rd heaven, heavenly place-John 14:2-3 combined with 2Corinthians 12:1-4, and Luke 20:35-36): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Amen

So, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Matthew 24:15), and with the trump of GOD (1Corinthians 15:51-55 combined with Philippians 3:20-21, and Revelation 11:15-18 and mainly Revelation 12:7-12, and 1Corinthians 15:24-28, take a look).

Happy New Year, or Happy 2025, it is and will be exclusivelly for the true people of GOD that dwell in heavenly places in Christ(John 1:12-13 and 17:13-17 combined with Ephesians 1:3-8);
But to the multitudes and multitudes of the Evil's world, woe of them, there will be only and only severe and strong and intense punishments, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, sons of Devil, in LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:6 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3 and Daniel 7:26-27, and Daniel 2:44-45, take a look).

Matthew 25:6 and 10 combined with Revelation 22:17 and 14.

Get ready

Happy New Year to you too! I'm already hearing the fireworks go off here in the Pacific NW, with a few hours yet to go!

 

[locust]

"every eye will see him''means everyone will ''understand'' that he has here

 

[RandyK]

"every eye will see him''means everyone will ''understand'' that he has here

Or, it will mean that everyone will eventually see him for personal judgment??

 

[locust]

Or, it will mean that everyone will eventually see him for personal judgment??

The only people that receive a judgment are people that are guilty of something. the innocent don't get judged no judgment is placed upon them

 

[RandyK]

The only people that receive a judgment are people that are guilty of something. the innocent don't get judged no judgment is placed upon them

l2 Cor 5.10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[locust]

the ''WE'' does not necessarily refer to everyone but primarily to the elect.
did the writer at that time understand that ?? I tend to think no

 

[RandyK]

the ''WE'' does not necessarily refer to everyone but primarily to the elect.
did the writer at that time understand that ?? I tend to think no

Paul didn't know what he was saying????

 

[locust]

Paul didn't know what he was saying????

what did Paul know ?

 

[RandyK]

what did Paul know ?

Aren't you a believer in Christ and in Paul, his Apostle?

 

[locust]

Aren't you a believer in Christ and in Paul, his Apostle?

Even more than you

 

[RandyK]

Even more than you

You don't know me. But you avoid my insinuation, that your Christianity is in question when you question the authority of Paul in his epistles.