Rapture to heaven in 1 Thess. 4

[Freedman]

That’s where they meet the Lord. In the air above. The heavens.

It states the Lord himself will DESCEND from heaven...meaning he is no longer up in the third heaven, but has now come down the first heaven, which would be where the clouds and the birds are in other words the air..meaning the air is not heaven...it says he ascended up far above all heavens..meaning the first heaven would be the clouds and the air, the second heaven would be outer space where the planets are, then Jesus would have ascended up above all these into the third heaven...so he comes down from the third heaven where he is now and we meet him in the clouds which would be the first heaven...so we know Jesus said to peter, 'Wither I go thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards...' Where did Jesus go? He ascended up to the third heaven...so in order for Peter to follow him, he would have to go that same place...and that is where Rev. 19 comes in...he heard a great voice of much people in heaven, so these have ascended up to the third heaven where Jesus was and from there they will descend down with him
as he said 'the Lord will come and all his saints with him..' in order for them to come WITH him they have to be there first.

 

[Freedman]

When God descends, He descends to the heavens above the earth to bring His judgments on the heavens of the earth

Yes, he descends to the first heaven where the clouds are and we meet the Lord there...when it says we meet him there it is acknowledged that he came down from the third heaven, and we went up to meet him in the first heaven..the question is that Jesus said to Peter he could not follow him where he was to go, but that he would follow him afterward..Jesus ascended up far above all heavens..so in order for Peter to follow him he would also have to arrive at the third heaven...in other words Jesus did not ascend up to the clouds or the first heaven, so for Peter to follow him he would have to ascend up past the clouds...so the question is if we meet him in the air, which is the first heaven, how does one get up to the third heaven?

 

[LeviR]

It states the Lord himself will DESCEND from heaven...meaning he is no longer up in the third heaven, but has now come down the first heaven, which would be where the clouds and the birds are in other words the air..meaning the air is not heaven...it says he ascended up far above all heavens..meaning the first heaven would be the clouds and the air, the second heaven would be outer space where the planets are, then Jesus would have ascended up above all these into the third heaven...so he comes down from the third heaven where he is now and we meet him in the clouds which would be the first heaven...so we know Jesus said to peter, 'Wither I go thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards...' Where did Jesus go? He ascended up to the third heaven...so in order for Peter to follow him, he would have to go that same place...and that is where Rev. 19 comes in...he heard a great voice of much people in heaven, so these have ascended up to the third heaven where Jesus was and from there they will descend down with him
as he said 'the Lord will come and all his saints with him..' in order for them to come WITH him they have to be there first.

The first heaven and earth are symbolic of the rulers and common people of the earth. The second heaven is the atmosphere above the earth. And the third heaven is where God dwells.
That’s how I understand it.

When the Lord descends, he descends to the atmosphere above the earth.
It is from there where the throne is set and the judgments directed from.
This is the place John saw when the door in heaven was open.
The Father is there, Jesus is there, the angels are there and the raptured saints are there.

After the judgments, Jesus descends to his throne in the Temple. The saints come with him and are angelic like.
The mortals of the earth will submit to Jesus’ rule.
1,000 years of it.

 

[Freedman]

They go up because that’s where the throne of God is set for the judgments to take place on earth.
God descends and they go up.
After the judgments have passed upon the people and the nations, then they come down where the kingdom of God is established on earth.
The ones who come down are angelic like. No one can see them unless they choose to be seen.

And so, Paul said no, the dead saints will "rise," not meaning they will rise from the earth,

It specifically states the dead rise to meet the Lord in the air, meaning they rise up to meet the lord in the clouds...then we which are alive and remain are caught together with them to meet the lord in the air..it is not at all right to say they do not rise from the earth...absolutely they rise from the earth. Even the two prophets who are killed it says their dead bodies lay in the street for 3.5 days then the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...they are now raised from the dead, but they have not yet ascended up, just as Jesus had been resurrected but did not ascend up until 40 days later...but then when the two prophets heard the voice say 'come up hither,' it states they ascended up to heaven in a cloud..' And people saw it happen so it was not figurative...

 

[RandyK]

It specifically states the dead rise to meet the Lord in the air, meaning they rise up to meet the lord in the clouds...

As I said, to "rise" means to be resurrected into new bodies because the old ones had been lost. It has nothing to do with the logistics of travelling from the earth and into the earth, or vice versa. It has nothing to do with the dead saints rising up into the air.

then we which are alive and remain are caught together with them to meet the lord in the air..it is not at all right to say they do not rise from the earth...

It does not say that they are physically rising from the earth. After all, their bodies are gone, having corrupted and returned to the dust, to be spread over quite a distance. The gift of a new physical body takes place *in heaven,* and does not "rise" from the earth.

To suggest a "rise from the earth" is not wrong, however. Our old bodies are dust upon the earth. And from this vantage point we will "rise again," not meaning that our bodies will be re-assembled on earth and rise into heaven, but rather, that where we once were on earth, we will rise from that vantage point to obtain new bodies in the clouds, when Christ Returns.

absolutely they rise from the earth. Even the two prophets who are killed it says their dead bodies lay in the street for 3.5 days then the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...they are now raised from the dead, but they have not yet ascended up, just as Jesus had been resurrected but did not ascend up until 40 days later...

And this is relevant how? The prophets and Jesus were able to raise people up *in their old bodies.* At Jesus' Coming, people will rise from the dead--not rise from the earth, to obtain new bodies in heaven. Their old bodies will not be healed, as Lazarus' dead corpse was reanimated and resurrected in his old body.

but then when the two prophets heard the voice say 'come up hither,' it states they ascended up to heaven in a cloud..' And people saw it happen so it was not figurative...

Yes, Elijah was caught up in his old body, as well. This obviously meant the old physical body disintegrated or disappeared, since our physical bodies cannot live in heaven apart from some kind of physical transformation. The old bodies are destined to die, and I would assume that happened to the 2 prophets, as well as to Elijah.

1 Thes 4.13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

This is about assurance and comfort for departed saints. When Christ comes back for the saints who are still living, the dead saints will be able to participate in this hope, at the same time.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

"Bring back with Jesus" is not the same thing as mortal bodies ascending into heaven.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This is encouragement that living believers have for their departed brethren. Christ's Coming will simultaneously comprise the fulfillment of hope for both groups, the living and the dead.

The living will be gathered, while the dead will be resurrected. This has nothing to do with the dead "rising from the earth," though the living will indeed rise from the earth and into the clouds.

The dead will "rise from the dead," or from their old earthly lives. Their mortal bodies will not ascend into the clouds, but their spirits, already with Christ, will obtain glorious new bodies *in the clouds* when Christ Returns.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The dead saints will rise *from the dead*--not from the earth. It is those living saints who are gathered by the angels, or "seized"/raptured, who will rise from the earth just as Elijah did, and as the 2 Witnesses will.

The living saints who are "raptured" will see their old mortal bodies instantly disintegrate, to be replaced, "in a moment," into glorious new immortal bodies. This will happen when indeed their old mortal bodies are "caught up" from the earth, or seized and assembled by angels. But the dead saints are not so caught up, as I read it?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The dead saints are already with Christ at his Coming. Their spirits will be assembled, and the living saints on earth will be assembled and caught up together with them in heaven.

The dead saints are not "caught up," but only brought together with those who are caught up. The dead saints are 1st assembled to be given new bodies, and then the living saints are caught up with them as they obtain new bodies for themselves.

17 And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The encouragement is not just that the living saints have hope in Christ's Return, but that those who have departed will enter into glory simultaneously. Dead saints will "rise" from the dead, whereas the living saints will be "caught up" together with them.

 

[RandyK]

Rev. 19 shows much people in heaven..how did they get there? They then come back with Jesus as it states, the Lord my god shall come and all the saints with thee ...Jesus is up in heaven now, so if all the saints are to come WITH him at the second coming, then they have to be there first

The spirits of dead saints are already with Christ in heaven. They return with Christ in new glorious bodies.

How do I know their spirits are already with the Lord? Paul seems to indicate that when the saints die, they instantly go to be in the presence of the Lord, who is in heaven.

2 Cor 5.8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 

[RandyK]

They go up because that’s where the throne of God is set for the judgments to take place on earth.
God descends and they go up.
After the judgments have passed upon the people and the nations, then they come down where the kingdom of God is established on earth.
The ones who come down are angelic like. No one can see them unless they choose to be seen.

I don't see where the Scriptures say we go up to avoid the judgments that are coming down upon the earth? That is Pretribulationism, and no such doctrine exists in the Christian Bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes I agree God and the holy angels are in heaven...Rev. 19 says "And I heard a great voice of much people in heaven saying alleluia; Salvation and glory, and honor and power unto the Lord our God...how did these people get up there?

The people in Rev 19:1 are God, Jesus and the host of Angels

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

If you go forward to Rev 14:3 the four beast, which are the living creatures being cherubim are all angels. They have the faces of four beast as being lions, humans, oxen and eagles and like the elders in heaven that the church here on earth is patterned after are all part of the host/Angels in heaven. The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders that surround the throne are also angels. The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

There are three heavens described in the Bible.

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23;Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,”(Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).


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[JLB]

The people in Rev 19:1 are God, Jesus and the host of Angels

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

If you go forward to Rev 14:3 the four beast, which are the living creatures being cherubim are all angels. They have the faces of four beast as being lions, humans, oxen and eagles and like the elders in heaven that the church here on earth is patterned after are all part of the host/Angels in heaven. The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders that surround the throne are also angels. The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

There are three heavens described in the Bible.

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23;Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,”(Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).


​

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:7-8


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


The saints return with the Lord to the earth, to receive their resurrected bodies, at the coming of the Lord.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


again


14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 1:14-15


again


1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:1-5

 

[Freedman]

even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Yes this is the scripture I would like your input on...it is acknowledged that Jesus comes down and we go up to meet him in the clouds...the question is which way will we be going in correlation to the phrase 'God will bring those that sleep WITH him...God is going to bringing them either up or down from the clouds. Will God bring the believers up to heaven, or will God bring the believers down to the earth?

 

[RandyK]

Yes this is the scripture I would like your input on...it is acknowledged that Jesus comes down and we go up to meet him in the clouds...the question is which way will we be going in correlation to the phrase 'God will bring those that sleep WITH him...God is going to bringing them either up or down from the clouds. Will God bring the believers up to heaven, or will God bring the believers down to the earth?

As I said elsewhere, living believers will be caught up by angels and instantly transformed in the clouds. At the very same moment they will return with Christ in their glorious new bodies. The reason that they are "snatched up" to start with is so that they may return with Christ in glorious new bodies, and not come back in their old, fallible, mortal bodies.

The idea is not to try to figure out the logistics of going up and coming down, timing the event, and figuring out how it all takes place sequentially. We are told it all takes place in a twinkling of an eye.

So if that's where you're going, I believe you're missing the mark. The entire reason for the "snatch" is so that we come back with Christ in glory, and not in infamy. ;)

 

[JLB]

Yes this is the scripture I would like your input on...it is acknowledged that Jesus comes down and we go up to meet him in the clouds...the question is which way will we be going in correlation to the phrase 'God will bring those that sleep WITH him...God is going to bringing them either up or down from the clouds. Will God bring the believers up to heaven, or will God bring the believers down to the earth?

The coming of the Lord, which is the second coming of Christ is also called the Day of the Lord; the Day of Christ.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape

Remember in Revelation 19 we see the armies of heaven returning with the Lord at His coming?

The armies of heaven include all the saints and angels.


Once we all are gathered unto Him in the clouds in the air, we will all return with Him to the earth; specifically to Jerusalem to eradicate the wicked, including the antichrist who will be destroyed personally by the Lord Himself, by the brightness of His coming. See 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Here is another scripture that shows what the Lord does on the Day of the Lord.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

Here are some more specifics about Him returning to Jerusalem at His coming, in Zechariah 14.


And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem… v.8

And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. v.9

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. v.12


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. v.16


The answer is we will return with Him to Jerusalem in order to remove the wicked from the earth, and to dwell with Him for 1000 years in peace and rest.


And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4

 

[for_his_glory]

The saints return with the Lord to the earth, to receive their resurrected bodies, at the coming of the Lord.

What do we do with Matthew 24:29-31; John 3:13; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Revelation 19:11-21 that shows us we are first changed before we are caught up to meet Christ in the air when He returns with the clouds

 

[JLB]

What do we do with Matthew 24:29-31; John 3:13; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Revelation 19:11-21 that shows us we are first changed before we are caught up to meet Christ in the air when He returns with the clouds

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Point #1

• if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This shows us that God will bring with Jesus Christ, those who have died and are in heaven...

We know Jesus Christ is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father.

So, if God brings the dead in Christ with Him, then it's clear that they are with Him in heaven.


Do you agree?

 

[for_his_glory]

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Point #1

• if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This shows us that God will bring with Jesus Christ, those who have died and are in heaven...

We know Jesus Christ is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father.

So, if God brings the dead in Christ with Him, then it's clear that they are with Him in heaven.


Do you agree?

No, I do not agree. Do you just throw out all those scriptures I gave in post #33 that speak about us being caught up to Christ after He returns?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[LeviR]

The coming of the Lord, which is the second coming of Christ is also called the Day of the Lord; the Day of Christ.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape

Remember in Revelation 19 we see the armies of heaven returning with the Lord at His coming?

The armies of heaven include all the saints and angels.


Once we all are gathered unto Him in the clouds in the air, we will all return with Him to the earth; specifically to Jerusalem to eradicate the wicked, including the antichrist who will be destroyed personally by the Lord Himself, by the brightness of His coming. See 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Here is another scripture that shows what the Lord does on the Day of the Lord.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

Here are some more specifics about Him returning to Jerusalem at His coming, in Zechariah 14.


And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem… v.8

And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. v.9

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. v.12


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. v.16


The answer is we will return with Him to Jerusalem in order to remove the wicked from the earth, and to dwell with Him for 1000 years in peace and rest.


And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4

I think it’s important to note that the judgments are executed by Christ and his raptured saints but they won’t be seen executing them.
For example, if God prophesied to remove His people from the land saying He would do it, He would do it by bringing another nation to take the people captive and out of their land.
Or, He could bring a famine upon the land to drive them elsewhere.

So, when we see the judgements being executed in Revelation, as if we were there on the ground watching, we would not see Christ or his raptured saints executing the judgments. We would see mortal men warring against other mortal men.
IOW, you won’t see immortal men fighting against mortal men.

It’s not until the judgments have ended that they see Christ actually coming in the clouds.

 

[JLB]

I think it’s important to note that the judgments are executed by Christ and his raptured saints but they won’t be seen executing them.
For example, if God prophesied to remove His people from the land saying He would do it, He would do it by bringing another nation to take the people captive and out of their land.
Or, He could bring a famine upon the land to drive them elsewhere.

So, when we see the judgements being executed in Revelation, as if we were there on the ground watching, we would not see Christ or his raptured saints executing the judgments. We would see mortal men warring against other mortal men.
IOW, you won’t see immortal men fighting against mortal men.

It’s not until the judgments have ended that they see Christ actually coming in the clouds.

Jesus Christ is the Judgement of God.
He is God's vengeance on the wicked.

The Day of the LORD is the Day of Vengeance upon the wicked.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, the houses rifled,
And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. Zechariah 14:1-3


And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12

 

[LeviR]

Jesus Christ is the Judgement of God.
He is God's vengeance on the wicked.

The Day of the LORD is the Day of Vengeance upon the wicked.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, the houses rifled,
And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. Zechariah 14:1-3


And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12

Yes, that is one of the ways the Lord executes His judgments.

That plague will come upon the nations who fight against Jerusalem. It’s also called “the burning pestilence”.

Other ways He brings His judgments is hail and fire and brimstone.

And also the sword. When men will be killed by the sword in battle.

My point was, these things come upon His people and the nations during the day of judgment. But the Lord himself will not be seen. Nor his immortal saints.

IOW, Jesus will not be seen afflicting plague on anyone. Nor will he be seen fighting with the sword. Nor calling down hail and fire and brimstone.

 

[Freedman]

The people in Rev 19:1 are God, Jesus and the host of Angels

Yes I am just beginning to see that...the thing that was confusing me is that I thought the saints were supposed to be transported somehow up the third heaven before they made their descent down to the clouds but this was wrong thinking, they never make it that far, they just ascend up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the clouds and then come on down to the earth with Jesus

 

[JLB]

My point was, these things come upon His people and the nations during the day of judgment. But the Lord himself will not be seen. Nor his immortal saints.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10