Douglas Summers
Member
Yes, I agree, and have tried to point that out.....but they just pushed it aside.
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Bible Study Rapture
- Thread starter Douglas Summers
- Start date
Brother, please be reasonable.
I only asked you about the verses from
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
It plainly says the coming of the Lord...
I never mentioned the tribulation.
Simply the coming of the Lord.
Paul says those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord....
I only asked you if you disagree the rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord.
Do you disagree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
JLB
New Day Coming
Member
Might it be fair to say that "the day of the Lord" is a time period other than a day. In the same way "the coming of the Lord" may be just as multi faceted, some verses suggesting us being caught up, others suggesting him landing on the mount of Olives etc.
Douglas Summers
Member
NDC, Many of Christ prophetic teachings are duel or run together. A good example is Luke 4:18-19. The Lord quotes from Isa. 61:1-2a, leaving Isa. 61:2b-3 out of the prophecy, because it was not time for the rest of the prophecy to be delivered. But if you read the prophecy in Isa. 61:1-3, It reads as one event. It is an example of Christ accuracy of prophecy and Scripture, as He has also informed us. Isa. 61:1-2a has been fulfilled, Isa. 61:2b-3 is yet to come.
In Christ who is our wisdom and our righteousness, Amen
Douglas Summers
Member
Yes, I believe the resurrection of the living will not precede the resurrection of those asleep of the church, but TOGETHER (at the same time) at His coming to meet Him in the air. Now, do I believe that this resurrection is of all saints at this time....no, This does not count the saints that go through the tribulation.
Amen.
I believe this also, as this is what the verses teach us from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Well, Based on what Paul teaches in these verses, the Church, both living and dead, are caught up to be together with the Lord, and will be with Him forever from this point forward.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
- the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Help me to see where these "missing" saints are referred to here in these verse?
The dead in Christ, are caught up first, then those who are alive and remain are caught up together with them.
I don't see where anyone is left out.
I don't see anyone as being left behind, since it necessary to gather together all the Church in the air, before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked, including the antichrist.
JLB
New Day Coming
Member
Douglas Summers
Member
First JLB, You must understand Christ relationship to His Church (His body) It is a living organism....not an organization. After the rapture of the Church (only the Church) Rev. 4:1-3; in Rev. 4:4 the scene is of twenty-four Elders (priest) on 24 thrones around Christ, clothed in white with 24 gold crowns. Only the Church fits that description. A throne means they are reigning or are going to reign with Christ. In Rev. 20:4 They are given authority to judge, But they are in authority before the tribulation, for the rest of the verse moves forward to the tribulation saints. But the rest of the dead (to be judged< The Tribulation souls who followed the beast) will not be judged till AFTER the 1000 years. Also, we are the first fruits of Christ, Christ being The first fruit of the resurrection., But everyone in it's own order (in time) 1 Cor. 15:23. There is no general resurrection or general judgement.
I agree.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
How does this explain the "missing saints" you are referring to, that are left behind at the rapture, from the text of
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
The text plainly encourages the Church, that at the rapture, we will always be with the Lord.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
It isn't very encouraging or comforting to me, to think that I or my loved ones could end up being separated at the resurrection and rapture, when He comes.
Could you and I examine and discuss, what Paul taught about the Rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4, in order to arrive at some type of common understanding about the coming of the Lord, and the resurrection and rapture?
I asked you to please help me to see where the "missing saints", who are left behind at His coming and the rapture, from the scriptures about this subject, that Paul taught the Church in his letter to the Thessalonians.
Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will be caught up after the dead in Christ are raised.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Are you saying that the "dead in Christ" refers to just some of the "dead in Christ"?
I'm really trying to see your perspective on this.
JLB
Here is what Paul taught the Church about the rapture and the resurrection.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Do you believe the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
There are many different people saying all kinds of things on You Tube.
However, my desire is for the Church, to return to her roots, to be taught from the scriptures.
- we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
I believe we can come to at least a common understanding about these tings.
This shows us the resurrection comes before the rapture, at His coming.
JLB
When I was young in the word without much knowledge or understanding I use to believe all these pretrib theories even trying to believe what they taught about Rev 4:1-4 being the Rapture of the Church, but I could never see it written in those verses. I thought maybe I just didn't understand it and maybe someday would see it written there. Years later the more I read it over and over and asked the Holy Spirit to show me where it spoke about the Rapture I found it has nothing to do with a pretrib Rapture as this is what the Holy Spirit revealed to me in my study.
Rev 4:1-4
Instructions to the seven Churches have been issued for edification and warnings of Gods chastisements and now John sees a vision of a door opening before him. The first voice he heard speaking to him was that of great power and authority similar to the powerful sound a trumpet makes. The voice tells John to draw in closer to Gods Spirit to see the visions of those things that are yet future.
After hearing this voice John was immediately immersed in the Holy Spirit and saw a throne was set in heaven and the Lord sat on it, Isaiah 6:1. God was being compared to a jasper and a sardine stone in all their splendor and beauty. On the Ephod that the Priest wore there were four rows of various stones that represented the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob. The first stone was jasper representing Reuben being the first born and a sardine stone as being Benjamin the last son to be born. God is represented like these stones in vs. 3 as being the first and last as in Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
All the stones in between the jasper and sardine are those of Gods covenant he made with faithful Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 that have remained faithful and have endured all persecutions even to death that sleep in the grave, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. There are yet many that even now and up to the time of Jesus returning in the clouds for his Bride that will die a martyr’s death in that which will come hereafter as John sees in his vision.
The rainbow round about the throne of God is his covenant promise he made with Noah in Genesis 9:1-13 that from henceforth God will never destroy this earth with an actual flood, but the flood or power of Gods wrath during the seven trumpet sounds will either cause many to repent and have eternal life with the Father or be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. The rainbow is also described as being emerald that is green in color which symbolizes that same covenant God made with Noah is also for all who are living and growing spiritually as they remain grounded in faith that is Christ Jesus no matter what comes against them.
John now sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as Gods witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.
Rev 4:1-4
Instructions to the seven Churches have been issued for edification and warnings of Gods chastisements and now John sees a vision of a door opening before him. The first voice he heard speaking to him was that of great power and authority similar to the powerful sound a trumpet makes. The voice tells John to draw in closer to Gods Spirit to see the visions of those things that are yet future.
After hearing this voice John was immediately immersed in the Holy Spirit and saw a throne was set in heaven and the Lord sat on it, Isaiah 6:1. God was being compared to a jasper and a sardine stone in all their splendor and beauty. On the Ephod that the Priest wore there were four rows of various stones that represented the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob. The first stone was jasper representing Reuben being the first born and a sardine stone as being Benjamin the last son to be born. God is represented like these stones in vs. 3 as being the first and last as in Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
All the stones in between the jasper and sardine are those of Gods covenant he made with faithful Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 that have remained faithful and have endured all persecutions even to death that sleep in the grave, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. There are yet many that even now and up to the time of Jesus returning in the clouds for his Bride that will die a martyr’s death in that which will come hereafter as John sees in his vision.
The rainbow round about the throne of God is his covenant promise he made with Noah in Genesis 9:1-13 that from henceforth God will never destroy this earth with an actual flood, but the flood or power of Gods wrath during the seven trumpet sounds will either cause many to repent and have eternal life with the Father or be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. The rainbow is also described as being emerald that is green in color which symbolizes that same covenant God made with Noah is also for all who are living and growing spiritually as they remain grounded in faith that is Christ Jesus no matter what comes against them.
John now sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as Gods witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.
New Day Coming
Member
Revelation 5
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The only text this is modified in is the Alexandrian text where "them" is substituted. An old clip now but still relevant...
Douglas Summers
Member
There are no saints left behind. Every born again believer from the Day of Pentecost till the coming of the Lord for His Church.....all will be translated. But that is His Church, Then there are the tribulation saint (A number no one can count of all nations that will have to be resurrected) (Rev. 7:9-17) But the Church is already with Christ (The Elders) Rev. 7:11-14.. The first Resurrection is not at one time, The completion of the First Resurrect is in Rev. 20:4.
ezra
Member
what is hard to understand Jesus taking us out of here alive or dead will will be translated in a twinkling of a eye .either saved-ready lost or not ready will be left behind with no second chance . man like to complicate things ask 10 people how you get saved get ten different ways ..no wonder people are so confused
Please show me in scripture where Christ returns two different times as what you are saying goes against John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Rev Chapter 7:4-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.
Rev 7:9-12 After John understands who these servants are that needed to be sealed of God were Jews he is now shown a great multitude of Gentiles from all over the world that stand before the throne of God and before Jesus. They are clothed in white robes and have palms in their hands. They are exclaiming that Salvation is of God that sits on the throne and unto the Son of God being the scarified Lamb, Psalms 3:8.
Rev 7:13-14 In John’s vision the elder was asking John if he had understanding of those which are in white robes and how they came to be there. John did not recognize them as being Jews and asked the elder to explain who they are and where did they come from. The elder reveals to John these are they who have come out of great tribulation being Gentiles that have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and were baptized and received the Holy Spirit as the Jews have received.
John had to understand this in order to write this to the seven churches. Jews were always taught that the Gentiles were an unclean evil people full of idol worshipping and in no way could they be worthy of anything of God including his love. Jew’s were not allowed to associate with the Gentiles in fear they too would fall to their idol worshipping like they did when they followed after Jeroboam. The twelve Disciples were only allowed to go to the nations of Israel to preach, Matthew 10:5-7, but Peter was shown in a vision that the Gentiles were not unclean as they too needed to repent and come to God for his salvation.
Rev 7:15-17 This is speaking of the end of time after earth and heaven (atmosphere) have been purified from all the abominations that has caused much desolation (sin) in the world and then at that time will the heaven and earth be restored and the New Jerusalem ushered down from God where we will have eternal life with the Father, Rev 21.
ezra
Member
there are some who see at as Christ takes us out of here. then he returns as judge basically its time event based and interpretation
Yes, many do believe this way for how they are taught by others, but yet these theories come against what scripture teaches. I use to believe in a pretrib rapture, but the more I studied that of what all those end time preachers teach I found none of it to line up with the scriptures they use, especially Rev chapter 4 where they teach of a pretrib rapture. It simply is not found there. There is nowhere in scripture that teaches that Christ returns twice.
Ok, I agree.
This is where we disagree.
There is no other way, or covenant, or plan for people to be a part of the Church.
Jesus comes for His Church, and resurrects all the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain, will be caught together with them, on the last day.
- This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. John 6:39
again
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:21-24
- Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
All those who are Christ's will be resurrected, at His coming.
- For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
There is no one left to be resurrected, after His coming, because all shall be made alive.
All those not caught up together in the air, with Christ, at His coming, will be destroyed, starting with the antichrist.
- then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
JLB
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Douglas Summers
Member
You are confusing the rapture (calling out of the Church) with His return to the earth in Judgment. He has already come once, He will return again (with the Church) to judge those and reward those who go through the Tribulation (that is His second coming) Rev. 20:4. When He comes for the Church, He calls them out to meet Him in the air.