Bible Study Rapture

[Douglas Summers]

There is no other way, or covenant, or plan for people to be a part of the Church.

Correct, The resurrection of the millennial saints is not the Church. (They will serve God in the temple) (Rev. 7:14-17) The Church has already been translated., They are the Elders (Rev. 7:11-14) Those alive and dead.....all at the same time (in an instant) together to meet the Lord in the air...not on the earth.

 

[JLB]

Correct, The resurrection of the millennial saints is not the Church.

I don’t know what “millennial saint” is.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, or 2 Thessalonians 2 , or 1 Corinthians 15 doesn’t mention any “millennial saints”.

These are those who are “in Christ” and those who are not.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

These that are “in Christ” are raised and caught up with Christ first, then those who are alive and remain, are caught up together with them.

All those who are His are caught up in the air with Him.

Everyone who Isn’t is destroyed along with the antichrist at the coming of the Lord.

The resurrection happens at His coming.

The rapture happens at His coming.

The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don’t know what “millennial saint” is.

They are the ones that went through the tribulation, They will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation and serve God during the 1000 year reign of peace. The Church is already with Christ. Rev. 7:9-17 with Rev. 20:4. JLB, ask the Lord to show you the truth, He is the only one that can give the increase. All I can do is give you the Scriptures.

 

[JLB]

They are the ones that went through the tribulation, They will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation

Here is what the scripture says about those who are resurrected, and when this occurs.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

JLB, ask the Lord to show you the truth, He is the only one that can give the increase. All I can do is give you the Scriptures.

The Lord showed me the truth concerning this doctrine over twenty years ago.


I'm still waiting for you to give me the first scripture about what you believe.


You keep referring to some resurrection of people, that you claim is not the Church, that is made up of a group of people called "Millenial Saints" who came of of the tribulation.


Paul plainly states that resurrection and rapture is at the coming of the Lord.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 15-17

• Paul teaches that the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the Church, will only happen after the man of sin is revealed, in which he will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

• Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Here is what the scripture says about those who are resurrected, and when this occurs.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord.

Then keep your doctrine, it is not mine, The Scriptures (to me) are clear. Did you seek the Lords for understanding or did you think it was not necessary because you think you are correct. It has a lot to do with the way we believe.

 

[JLB]

Then keep your doctrine, it is not mine, The Scriptures (to me) are clear. Did you seek the Lords for understanding or did you think it was not necessary because you think you are correct. It has a lot to do with the way we believe.

As I said, I sought the Lord diligently over 20 years ago, about this doctrine and He made it crystal clear, as the scriptures I have given you, so plainly declare.

For some reason, you have decided that the resurrection and rapture, somehow doesn’t include all those who are Christ’s, and that at the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, He doesn’t destroy the antichrist, when the scriptures plainly state that is exactly what happens.

I don’t know where you learned your doctrine, but Paul certainly doesn’t teach this in both his letters to the Thessalonians.


At the coming of the Lord, Paul plainly teaches all the dead in Christ will be made alive first, then those who alive and remain at His coming, will be caught up together with them. Then the antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

Here are my scriptures that teach this very foundational truth

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

• destroy with the brightness of His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away?

Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

Dr Andy Woods

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07CH49HXR/ref=ya_aw_dod_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(VERY good btw)

 

[JLB]

The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away?

Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

Dr Andy Woods

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07CH49HXR/ref=ya_aw_dod_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(VERY good btw)

Do you believe “apostate people” is a reference to people who are raptured?


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g646

The word falling away (G648) means to defect or forsake or turn away from and comes from the root word
(Strong's G647) - apostasion which means divorce.


JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

Do you believe “apostate people” is a reference to people who are raptured?


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g646

The word falling away (G648) means to defect or forsake or turn away from and comes from the root word
(Strong's G647) - apostasion which means divorce.


JLB

I think you would enjoy the book - turns out there is more to the Greek than meets the eye. I had never looked into it till recently and in answer to your question, "departure" has more than one interpretation...

 

[JLB]

I think you would enjoy the book - turns out there is more to the Greek than meets the eye. I had never looked into it till recently and in answer to your question, "departure" has more than one interpretation...

Based on the use of this word in the New Testament as well as the Old Testament Septuagint, context, an apostate is someone who turned away from obedience to God.

Please read the link to the scriptures that use this word.

In addition, the coming of the Lord and the gathering together to Him, is the resurrection and rapture, not the “falling away” as described in
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17


The living and dead will be gathered to Him at His coming.


The coming of the Lord won’t happen until after the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin, is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


The false messiah comes first, works his deception and deceives people into following and worshipping him, whereby they depart from the faith in Christ, the true Messiah.

Then at the coming of the Lord, the false messiah will be destroyed by Christ Himself.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8


If the True Messiah comes first, who would follow the false messiah?



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

For some reason, you have decided that the resurrection and rapture, somehow doesn’t include all those who are Christ’s, and that at the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, He doesn’t destroy the antichrist, when the scriptures plainly state that is exactly what happens.

So did I....so why the two different doctrines? And what you posted is not what I believe.

 

[New Day Coming]

So did I....so why the two different doctrines? And what you posted is not what I believe.

I think Christians differ over this question a lot, sometimes dividing along denominational lines. I have had a lot of conversations along these topics and some of my good friends are post-trib. That having been said, your theology of whether you believe the Church is present during the tribulation rests on your understanding of the future of Israel, the meaning of the 70th week, "rightly dividing" etc etc.

I can share what has convinced me but I don't pretend to be able to change anyone elses mind on it unless they are actually open minded on this topic... (not common ;-) In addition, it is one the Lord himself will settle in the fullness of time so my focus needs to be on the great commission, not changing opinions of the already saved (that's how I see it anyway).

 

[JLB]

So did I....so why the two different doctrines? And what you posted is not what I believe.

It may not be what you believe, or what you have been taught, but it is what Paul taught.


If you don’t believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the rapture occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you believe His coming is before the antichrist is revealed, then please state why, with scripture.




JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

It may not be what you believe, or what you have been taught, but it is what Paul taught.


If you don’t believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the rapture occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you believe His coming is before the antichrist is revealed, then please state why, with scripture.




JLB

I found this helpful...

The Rapture of the church involves all believers being caught up to heaven—those just resurrected together with those alive at the time (1 Thes:4:13-18
). If it occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period, then clearly Christ’s Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon is a separate event. According to Zechariah:14:3-5
, “all the saints” must accompany Christ back to earth. But if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, it must be simultaneous with the Second Coming, making them one event.

Which is it: two events separated by seven years, or one event with two diverse purposes?

This question, although it has nothing to do with the gospel of salvation, divides much of the evangelical church. Happily, it can be settled rather easily. The descriptions in Scripture of the Rapture and Second Coming respectively are so different in so many details that they could not possibly be describing the same occurrence. We can’t cover all of these distinctions, but here are a few...

(I won't fill up the thread but it's a good link)

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/pre-or-post-trib-rapture

 

[JLB]

The Rapture of the church involves all believers being caught up to heaven—those just resurrected together with those alive at the time (1 Thes:4:13-18

Let's examine the text for ourselves, to discover some biblical facts that the passage teaches.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

• The focus or context is about the resurrection of those who are His.
• Those of His people who have previously died are coming with Him.
• Jesus coming with His Church

15] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

• The context concerns the coming of the Lord.
• The resurrection comes before the Rapture.

16] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

• At His coming the dead in Christ will rise first.
• The dead in Christ will rise at the trumpet. The last Trump. [1 Corinthians 15]

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

• The raptured ones will be caught up together with the resurrected ones, who rise first.
• Both the resurrected ones and the raptured ones will be with the Lord, in the air above the earth, together.

The resurrection and rapture is one event that occurs at His coming, when the Lord comes with the Church.



Do you know what other significant event happens at His coming?





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

You are confusing the rapture (calling out of the Church) with His return to the earth in Judgment. He has already come once, He will return again (with the Church) to judge those and reward those who go through the Tribulation (that is His second coming) Rev. 20:4. When He comes for the Church, He calls them out to meet Him in the air.

Yes, Jesus came the first time in His birth, death and resurrection. It was not till He ascended up to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down on the day of Pentecost that God's true Church, (body of Christ) came to begin. The Disciples first got instruction from Jesus before He sent them out, Matthew 10:5-20. After they were given instruction then Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit, John 20:19-31. After this Jesus was taken up in the clouds and ascended up into heaven, Acts 1:9-11.

In Rev 19 we read Jesus returns (second coming) with His army being angels, (not the saints who have gone on before us), in heaven. At that time Jesus destroys the beast and the false prophet being the son of perdition, casting them into the lake of fire, binding Satan and then those who are alive at His coming and those asleep in the grave will Jesus then send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all the Bride being the body of Christ to Him and we will evermore be with Him, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

John 3:13 is very clear that no one who has ever died has gone up to heaven, but only the very breath/spirit God breathed in us returns back to Him when this physical body dies, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" comes first, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What is this falling away?

Is it apostasy, a spiritual departure from the faith, or is it an actual physical rapture? In this book, Dr. Andy Woods gives 10 reasons to believe it is a physical rapture.

Dr Andy Woods

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07CH49HXR/ref=ya_aw_dod_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(VERY good btw)

Instead of believing all those millions of books that line the pockets of these 1830's bandwagon preachers, why not get into the Bible for yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth and read what has already been written in the OT and NT.

It's all those teachings that caused me to think I wasn't understanding their scriptural support so I just accepted everything they taught. It was when I started studying Rev chapter 4 that says nothing about any pretrib rapture, even though they teach that it does, that I started questioning all the teachings I sat under. I emptied my mind and started searching all the scriptures that spoke about end times that I realized how horrendous and deceiving these teachings are.

What is going to happen to people when they see God's great wrath (end time tribulation) being poured out into the world during the first six trumpets and that of beast out of the sea and out of the earth forcing everyone to bow down and take it's mark or die a martyr's death. Not to even mention the seven vile judgements that fall on those who reject Christ and have taken the mark of the beast. This will be a great time of the falling away from truth as many have been taught we are called out of hear before the tribulation begins.

Satan is the great deceiver who loves to use others to teach a deceptive word. It's up to each of us to search out truth with the full context of scripture as we compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT. If one is not Spiritually discerning truth from error like I didn't do back in the day then they can easily be deceived by Satan. There is only one doctrine and that is the doctrine of Christ Jesus for what He has already taught and the Apostles wrote down as a witness and testimony of what Jesus spoke. When you put the whole together then you see the full teaching.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I think Christians differ over this question a lot, sometimes dividing along denominational lines. I have had a lot of conversations along these topics and some of my good friends are post-trib. That having been said, your theology of whether you believe the Church is present during the tribulation rests on your understanding of the future of Israel, the meaning of the 70th week, "rightly dividing" etc etc.

I can share what has convinced me but I don't pretend to be able to change anyone elses mind on it unless they are actually open minded on this topic... (not common ;-) In addition, it is one the Lord himself will settle in the fullness of time so my focus needs to be on the great commission, not changing opinions of the already saved (that's how I see it anyway).

Good advice, and I agree....Thank
In Christ who is our wisdom and our righteousness

 

[Douglas Summers]

It may not be what you believe, or what you have been taught, but it is what Paul taught.


If you don’t believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the rapture occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you believe His coming is before the antichrist is revealed, then please state why, with scripture.




JLB

I already did that.

 

[JLB]

I already did that.

Please copy a link to the post where you answered these.

If you don’t believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the rapture occurs at His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you don’t believe the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, then please state why, with scripture.


If you believe His coming is before the antichrist is revealed, then please state why, with scripture.




JLB