Drew
Member
How? How does a person who has committed a serious attain awareness of the reality of an eternal hellfire (I assume that by "hellfire", you mean "eternal hellfire)?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Reasons to believe hellfire is real.
- Thread starter Classik
- Start date
Drew
Member
This is a parable. The context is one where issues of the afterlife are nowhere in sight. Besides, there are a number of reasons apart from contextual considerations to conclude this is a parable. For example, there is talk of Lazarus being embodied - having a finger. And yet we know from 1 Corinthians 15 that no one, except Jesus, has received a resurrection body.:toofunny
The Rich Man and Lazarus, a folktale? A folk tale? A fairy tale? A gist? A picture of what that's to come?:dunno
:toofunny
If this Lazarus really existed, and if he is "saved", he, like the rest of all the dead saints is waiting to get a body. So this Luke 16 cannot be taken literally.
Drew
Member
I heartily agree with your take on the meaning of the word "spiritual". So many Christians uncritically equate "spirit" with "non-physicality", following the greek way of thinking that has so strongly influenced western culture.
Paul, as you imply, does not use the word "spiritual" in that sense. When, in 1 Cor 15, he says we will get "spiritual bodies", he intends us to understand that these will indeed be physical bodies.
That happened to me till I started checking the remember box before logging in.Well, it happened again.
I replied to you, Elijah, but lost the post.
I think I need to re-download my brower.2
thethinkingrebel
Member
Yes a better view of the meaning would be "bodies of a heavenly nature" or even "bodies without sin", these bodies will be physical, simpky glorified and without sin - as Adam and Eve were! There will no temptation to sin, nor will there be a serpent to tempt us. This is the truth of the matter! Not us floating off to heaven for eternal bliss, but being resurrected into eternal life on a new earth!
thethinkingrebel
Member
I thought this was simply a friendly discussion...
thethinkingrebel
Member
I do apologise, I thought you were displeased with me!
Drew
Member
We are in violent agreement!
We need to be careful in just how sure each of us is about our positions. I think it is more complicated than most realize, especially when one's views on the soul and just who is resurrected immortal are considered, as well as the nuances in the meanings of "life" and "death".
I am working on a response but I am not sure when it will be done.
I am working on a response but I am not sure when it will be done.
thethinkingrebel
Member
Of course it must be, lest it expose the fallacies of the hell doctrine.
We must be careful to ensure that the bible speaks doctrine to us, that everything we know about God is spoken to us through the bible..that we be as children before scripture. That pretense be dropped so that pride does not kill us. The Holy Spirit led me to search out the truth about hell. I then searched and searched the internet, before finding The fire that consumes. I would suggest reading it. Rather than filling you with rhetoric and propaganda..it goes through every scripture and weighs both doctrines ECT vs conditionalism. Just check it out before staunchly defending your views. View both sides of the argument!
Be careful in being so sure of your position as there may be at least one serious problem with it that I can think of.
You do not believe the unrighteous dead will be raised immortal, correct? Do you believe that being cast into the Lake of Fire--gehenna or the proper "hell" (I will explain more in a subsequent post although you may understand)--results in the immediate destruction of the individual?
thethinkingrebel
Member
The resurrections occur seperately
*[[Rev 20:4-6]] HNV* I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Yeshua, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Messiah, and will reign with him one thousand years.
This is the first resurrection, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs..perhaps even those martyred prior to that as well.
Anyway, this next section disproves the current heaven and hell doctrine explicitly.
*[[Rev 20:11-15]] HNV* I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Sheol gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
*[[Rev 21:1-4]] HNV* I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, God's dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away."
This is after the millenial kingdom...Jerusalem descends to Earth from Heaven..onto a new earth. Physically! God's dwelling is with his people. Notice that also there is no more death..yet hell is referred to as a process of dying..eternally.
*[[Rev 21:5-8]] HNV* He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." He said, "Write, for these words of God are faithful and true." He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alef and the Tav, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Here we go, second death!
What is death but the extinction of life? It is second, which means we have experienced this before. Wouldnt eternal torture be something different? Its definitely not death..we all know that pain shows you how alive you are. You burn up in the lake of fire:
*[[Hos 13:1-3]] HNV* When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling. He exalted himself in Israel, but when he became guilty in Baal, he died. Now they sin more and more, and have made themselves molten images of their silver, even idols according to their own understanding, all of them the work of the craftsmen. They say of them, 'They offer human sacrifice and kiss the calves.' Therefore they will be like the morning mist, and like the dew that passes away early, like the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing floor, and like the smoke out of the chimney.
Notice here reference to idolatry, notice the response to that idolatry.
Smoke out of the chimney!
*[[Luk 3:16-17]] WEB* John answered them all, “I indeed baptize you with water, but he comes who is mightier than I, the latchet of whose sandals I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Unquenchable? Unstoppable!
*[[Isa 47:13-15]] WEB* You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels: let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save you from the things that shall come on you. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: it shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before. Thus shall the things be to you in which you have labored: those who have trafficked with you from your youth shall wander everyone to his quarter; there shall be none to save you.
*[[Mal 4:1-3]] WEB* “For, behold, the day comes, it burns as a furnace; and all the proud, and all who work wickedness, will be stubble; and the day that comes will burn them up,” says Yahweh of Armies, “that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings. You will go out, and leap like calves of the stall. You shall tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make,” says Yahweh of Armies.
They shall be ASHES which the righteous tread upon!
*[[Isa 66:22-24]] WEB* “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me,” says Yahweh, “so your seed and your name shall remain. It shall happen, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me,” says Yahweh. “They shall go forth, and look on the dead bodies of the men who have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
New Heavens and New Earth..dead bodies of sinners. Consumed by fire and worms. The end of the wicked is destruction!
thethinkingrebel
Member
Oh just to add, day of judgment..all are resurrected equally. It can only be that way as judgment has not been made yet. We who are in the book of life will be changed. The rest burned up.
thethinkingrebel
Member
Of that I am unsure...however there is leeway. It does say that they burn up..so i assume it is quick. It will be painful.