Reasons to believe hellfire is real.

[thethinkingrebel]

Ever watch someone burn to death? I mean like with Apollo 11 (do yourself a favor and don't research it), or with the "witch burnings" or Joan of Arc's execution.

They all died in a matter of minutes (minutes that went by for them and those who loved them very slowly).

Now, feel free to build a theology of a God who would do that to His "beloved children" for an eternity. If you can then quote Psalm 107:1 and still hold to your theology - you have one weird psychosis living in your head.

add calvinism/predestination to that...gets even worse

 

[Classik]

Jesus adapted a "folk tale" to show the divide between the righteous and unrighteous. The thing is, no conditionalist argues against pain! It will be horrible for the wicked..it just wont be forever.

One thing I believe is that the condemntaion is not upon this flesh. That of Sodom and Gomorah and the flood were on the physical flesh.

This case is different.. (people would say: Afterall I die, and am gone. I think this eternal punishment will make people not want to sin). Honestly, the punishment looks severe

 

[Ace1234]

All the doctrines of torture, fire, levels, about hell come from paganism, mostly became a theme when Dante stirred the fervor and scripture was translated to change most words about hell into something other than death. The LOF, well, God is a consuming fire, fire changes, in biblical times sulfer and brimstone were purifying agents, not the agents of torture we make them today.

 

[Vic C.]

Originally Posted by thethinkingrebel
Jesus adapted a "folk tale" to show the divide between the righteous and unrighteous. The thing is, no conditionalist argues against pain! It will be horrible for the wicked..it just wont be forever.

One thing I believe is that the condemntaion is not upon this flesh. That of Sodom and Gomorah and the flood were on the physical flesh.

This case is different.. (people would say: Afterall I die, and am gone. I think this eternal punishment will make people not want to sin). Honestly, the punishment looks severe

This train of thought doesn't explain why sin still exists in this world.

You must also keep in mind that this flesh and blood is already condemned:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

As for Jesus parable being a folklore, that idea may have come from here:

http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Luke/Lu16b.html

At the end of this commentary, the author says this:

6. What the story of the rich man and Lazarus means to us

This is a question you might want to answer. At least you can add your thoughts to my own list:

• Some Bible passages need careful study to understand their meaning.

• We have a responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves just as the rich man did.

• God measures spiritual greatness differently than we tend to. Many of the most miserable on this earth will have the most splendid homes in heaven.

• When we are convicted of new principles from the Word of God, we need to put them into practice. To resist the call of the Holy Spirit is to move farther from God.

• In sharing truth, we meet people where they are. This does not mean approving ideas we know to be false, but it does mean moving slowly and avoiding a condemning attitude.

In another commentary, http://www.tidings.org/studies/fables200007.htm , the author of this article quotes a valid point made by someone named, Ron Abel:

"Some take exception to Jesus using a false idea of the Pharisees as the basis for his teaching. But it should be noted that the truth or falsity of the story in a parable is immaterial. The lesson conveyed through the story is the intended point"

I'm sure the Pharisees understood this point very well. I think that is evident in the narration of Luke 16, when Jesus has Abraham saying this to them:

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


IMO, Luke 16 doesn't deny or confirm the existence of an eternal hellfire. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but given the external evidence about the meaning of this parable, I wouldn't use the parable when debating either side of this doctrine.

 

[Vic C.]

Pizzaguy,

I think you meant Apollo 1, not 11. ;)

 

[Christ_empowered]

I believe in Hell as a mysterious place of separation from God where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know what goes on in Hell, except that eternal, conscious separation from the God who created you, loved you, and whose laws your violated must be a painful thing, indeed.

 

[Mike]

I believe in Hell as a mysterious place of separation from God where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know what goes on in Hell, except that eternal, conscious separation from the God who created you, loved you, and whose laws your violated must be a painful thing, indeed.

I agree with this, and I don't hold to a literal "hell-fire". I don't believe in annihilation. I believe in an eternal separation from the Lord. I've suggested before that we have no idea what it is like to be out of the sphere of His influence. I believe when Jesus spoke of fire, He was using analogies that we could understand and relate to. It is impossible to conceive of a state of being where you are shut away from the Lord with the constant and eternal knowledge that you rejected Him when He offered Salvation. Existing with this knowledge and regret has got to be more torturous than any fire could be.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Pizzaguy,

I think you meant Apollo 1, not 11. ;)

Yea, I edited it.
Thanks

 

[Pizzaguy]

I agree with this, and I don't hold to a literal "hell-fire". I don't believe in annihilation.

Ok, but just what does this mean: "The gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of (unrepented) sin is death." ????

I mean, we ALL die. Therefore, I see it that the gift of God is eternal life with, and in, Jesus. And death awaits those who don't know Him.

And dont' get me wrong, I do think there is punishment for sin - but I can't buy the idea of eternal burning torment that never ends.

On that note, I do not believe in Jesus and I don't praise God because I am going to heaven and not hell - seems like a cheap faith if it's a faith based on, "Oh, goody, I won't burn forever in hell if I just believe in Jesus".

I believe in Him because I BELIEVE in Him - in and of itself.

 

[Elijah674]

Ever watch someone burn to death? I mean like with Apollo 11 (do yourself a favor and don't research it), or with the "witch burnings" or Joan of Arc's execution.

They all died in a matter of minutes (minutes that went by for them and those who loved them very slowly).

Now, feel free to build a theology of a God who would do that to His "beloved children" for an eternity. If you can then quote Psalm 107:1 and still hold to your theology - you have one weird psychosis living in your head.

Yes, I have been around quite a span & have been around death coming in different hits + near hits. And even have had to make some moral decisions.

My take on life has taken a drastic turn since I became a Christian, the first death is not very important as sad as that is. But it is the second death that is my first concern.

And you post against 'eternal punishing' by a Loving God, surely this doctrine has had many folks no doubt turn the other way from Christianity. Yet, still we are told of sin to never arise a second time in Nah. 1:9 + we see in Obad. 1...

[15] For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[16] [For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain], so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, [[and they shall be as though they had not been]].

To have drunk upon My Holy Mountain, these ones surely were the ones of Heb. 6:1-6 who were 'MADE PATARKERS of the Holy Ghost' at one time.
But the point stated in Obad. is that THESE ONES SHALL BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN when their END comes about. (just GONE! Gone for all the rest of ETERNITY! And by their own free/will choice!)

And Christ in Luke 12:47-48 documents [who these ones will be.]

--Elijah

 

[Pizzaguy]

Well, it happened again.
I replied to you, Elijah, but lost the post.


I think I need to re-download my brower. 2

 

[Vic C.]

Is it possible, maybe, that you clicked on Preview instead of Submit and moved on without actually submitting your post?

I've done that a few times.

If you back-click your browser's pages, you may be able to get back to the "missing" reply.

 

[Mike]

Ok, but just what does this mean: "The gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of (unrepented) sin is death." ????

The way I see it, it says what it means and means what it says. You added "unrepented", but I don't think you needed to. You also reversed the verse.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." It says the wages (or the price/cost of sin) is that we die to the Lord, and then it gives us hope. Through Jesus Christ, we have eternal life! When we are dead in sin, it doesn't mean we stop existing. We just live a hopeless, dead existence. When an unrepentant sinner dies his final death, I believe he goes on in eternal damnation. I don't believe in a literal fire, but I do hold to the eternal existence.

 

[Classik]

This train of thought doesn't explain why sin still exists in this world.

You must also keep in mind that this flesh and blood is already condemned:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

As for Jesus parable being a folklore, that idea may have come from here:

http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Luke/Lu16b.html

At the end of this commentary, the author says this:





In another commentary, http://www.tidings.org/studies/fables200007.htm , the author of this article quotes a valid point made by someone named, Ron Abel:


I'm sure the Pharisees understood this point very well. I think that is evident in the narration of Luke 16, when Jesus has Abraham saying this to them:

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


IMO, Luke 16 doesn't deny or confirm the existence of an eternal hellfire. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but given the external evidence about the meaning of this parable, I wouldn't use the parable when debating either side of this doctrine.

Thanks for your reply, the great Bronze Medalist;)

What do you think about the devil being condemned forever in hellfire? Is it gonna happen. I have had testimonies of people who claimed they saw hellfire. They said: 'Christ took me there; I saw people, great and small, weeping and shouting.'

 

[Vic C.]

Classik,

I believe the Devil will experience hell for sure. :yes

However, I am also a skeptic and I find those sort of personal testimonies hard to believe. Consider the scriptures; is there any examples of Jesus doing that?

Why would Jesus do such a thing?

 

[Classik]

Classik,

I believe the Devil will experience hell for sure. :yes

However, I am also a skeptic and I find those sort of personal testimonies hard to believe. Consider the scriptures; is there any examples of Jesus doing that?

Why would Jesus do such a thing?

Well, not just from one source. Many people have given testimonies saying they saw hellfire. All their testimonies are exactly the same, having something in common. I wouldn't argue with them.


(As for the hellfire thing, Vic, it sounds so frightening,.... especially the 'forever thing'

 

[thethinkingrebel]

The way I see it, it says what it means and means what it says. You added "unrepented", but I don't think you needed to. You also reversed the verse.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." It says the wages (or the price/cost of sin) is that we die to the Lord, and then it gives us hope. Through Jesus Christ, we have eternal life! When we are dead in sin, it doesn't mean we stop existing. We just live a hopeless, dead existence. When an unrepentant sinner dies his final death, I believe he goes on in eternal damnation. I don't believe in a literal fire, but I do hold to the eternal existence.

Wrong, we physically die. Its not spiritual death (spiritual means things of God not about our immortal soul which doesnt exist). Our payment (wages) for unrepentant sin is to die the second death, those who have Jesus gain eternal life. Just take Paul at his word.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Well, not just from one source. Many people have given testimonies saying they saw hellfire. All their testimonies are exactly the same, having something in common. I wouldn't argue with them.


(As for the hellfire thing, Vic, it sounds so frightening,.... especially the 'forever thing'

Theyre exactly the same because they come from the same source. Satan, the great deceiver. Demons will be destroyed, not torturing people, some are even held in chains in tartarus awaiting Judgment day. I would say that "some" people saying this nonsense believe it, others are after money. But some say that Jesus travels with him, crying his eyes out because he is powerless to do anything...seriously bad theology. Plus theres the implication that people are now..in hell..which is wrong. How can people be in hell prior to the day of judgment? Hades/Sheol is not hell (gehenna) but thats where the dead are (realm of the dead).

I would argue these testimonies..you can't just put your hands up and say.."okay too much agreement - must be true". People are being decieved, they're being told things that not only weaken their faith, it contradicts the teaching of the resurrection, it contradicts revelation, it implies human immortality without God. It also implies sin will exist after God has removed it! It weakens the gospel..making it a be saved or go to hell kind of doctrine that is unbiblical. If hell were real..it should be (doctrinally) far more prevalent, Every page should be implicitly warning against the torments of hell...which is indeed forever! Surely we would be warned of this explicitly so that no person has excuse. Yet the bible talks of death, destruction, being cut off (killed), being reduced to nothing. If Hell existed, it would be screaming from the pages of the bible, but the only place it is screaming from is the pulpit.

 

[Webb]

We die physically and spiritually. Our word "death" is from "thanatos" which properly means "separation". At physical death the spirit separates the body. At spiritual death the spirit is separated from God. The Bible is never wrong although often misrepresented.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

We die physically and spiritually. Our word "death" is from "thanatos" which properly means "separation". At physical death the spirit separates the body. At spiritual death the spirit is separated from God. The Bible is never wrong although often misrepresented.

The spirit is breath of God. pneuma. Its not conscious or alive. It is life given from God.