Reasons why you are very unwise to trust your church’s doctrines

[John Zain]

IMO, most of you are missing the point that false doctrines can be very damaging, even very dangerous.
And that was the main intent of the OP.
OSAS especially comes to mind as being very dangerous.
So again, the safest course to take is to go directly to the source: Scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Please refer to the black and blue below, and let the protestations continue ...

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe that the leaders in a church have authority over the governance of the church body as a whole in doctrine, etc. The leaders have the authority to say who will serve in certain position, how services will be conducted, etc.
However, I don't believe that they have any authority outside of that governance. If the leaders are teaching something that my husband disapproves of it is his authority that I called to recognize, not the church leaders. If my husband says no you will not sit on the other side of the room from me in the service, I won't do that no matter what the leaders say. Then they can deal with my husband.

Do you believe the Church leaders have authority to impose disciplinary action?

And what do you mean about "church governance," what does that entail?

 

[John Zain]

Some things never seem to change ...
“making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” (Mark 7:13)

Are false doctrines less or full? ... As in harmless or harmful.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

IMO, most of you are missing the point that false doctrines can be very damaging, even very dangerous.
And that was the main intent of the OP.
OSAS especially comes to mind as being very dangerous.
So again, the safest course to take is to go directly to the source: Scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Please refer to the black and blue below, and let the protestations continue ...

False doctrine can be very damaging, which is why Free and myself called out some of the errors of what you are teaching here.

You also had a solution for False Doctrine, and we disagreed with that as well.

 

[TOG]

If my husband says no you will not sit on the other side of the room from me in the service, I won't do that no matter what the leaders say. Then they can deal with my husband.

Have you ever been in a church that does that? I once went to a wedding in a church building that was a couple hundred years old. It was designed for gender segregation. The seats on one side were a few inches higher than those on the other side. I'll let you guess which side was for the men.

The TOG​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Some things never seem to change ...
“making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” (Mark 7:13)

Jesus was talking about how the Pharisees pick and choose what commands to follow because of their oral traditions.

And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:9-13 (ESV)

We however are not holding to the traditions of men, but rather to the teachings of God through his Scriptures.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. Hebrews 13:17 (ESV)

This command for example, to obey the leaders in my Church and submit to them. This doesn't mean I obey them when they are contrary to Scripture, but it means I am held accountable which to me is very important.

I suggest you read Mark 7:9-13 and then reread the NT to see if you do not do the same things the Pharisees are doing. Let us examine ourselves.

Blessings,
DI

 

[TOG]

Some things never seem to change ...
“making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” (Mark 7:13)

Are false doctrines less or full? ... As in harmless or harmful.

I think they can be both. It depends on the doctrine. Among doctrines that I believe can be harmful would be OSAS, the pre-trib rapture and the doctrine that all you have to do to be saved is to pray a "sinner's prayer", and it doesn't matter what you do after that (closely related to OSAS).

The TOG​

 

[Free]

Some things never seem to change ...
“making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” (Mark 7:13)

Are false doctrines less or full? ... As in harmless or harmful.

And yet within the greater context of Scripture:

1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.
...
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, (1 Cor 11:1-2,15, ESV)

6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
...
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.(2 Thess 3:6;15, ESV)

Be very careful in putting down tradition as though it is all somehow bad and to be equated with error.

 

[jeff77]

I believe false doctrines can be harmful in that they can lead people astray, but do mans teaching of false doctrines cause people to reject the Holy Spirit and as a result are condemned at there death? I don't know for sure how much mans influence has on what ultimately happens to the lost but I think that people reject the HS and do not give their lives to Jesus because they choose to live in sin and be in control of their own lives instead

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Jesus said it even stronger "woe (Edited. there was no "expletive" in the scripture that you claim to be deleting here. Obadiah.)to you religious leaders, because you have the keys to heaven and you won't enter in; and when one of the little ones seeks the kingdom, you prevent them".
so,
be Berean-like; TEST EVERYTHING, see prayerfully what is really in Scripture (as God opens it to you), not contradictory to God's Plan and Purpose and Peace and Love and the rest of Scripture, and what is not really in Scripture (doctrines of men or of demons). there is a lot of falseness out there, and little love for truth.

Matthew 23:13-15
Amplified Bible (AMP)

13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.
14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you swallow up widows’ houses and for a pretense to cover it up make long prayers; therefore you will receive the greater condemnation and the heavier sentence.
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes one [a proselyte], you make him doubly as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.

2 Peter 2

 

[John Zain]

1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.
Be very careful in putting down tradition as though it is all somehow bad and to be equated with error.

You obviously believe the NT doctrines/ traditions = those of the large post-apostolic churches.
I ask thou ... How deceived can one be?

 

[John Zain]

... I think that people reject the HS and do not give their lives to Jesus because they choose to live in sin and be in control of their own lives instead

I would suggest that many people have done this, all the while believing in OSAS.
IMO, MILLIONS have lost the salvation they initially had because of this.

 

[Free]

You obviously believe the NT doctrines/ traditions = those of the large post-apostolic churches.
I ask thou ... How deceived can one be?

Deceived? The one who is deceived is the one who thinks they know better than all who go to church, revealing their spiritual pride. I suggest you go back and reread my posts. You need to stop these fallacious generalizations about churches and do some serious thinking on the matter.

Choose this day whom you will believe: Scripture and the Holy Spirit, or your church.

It should be pointed out that this is a false dilemma.

 

[jeff77]

I would suggest that many people have done this, all the while believing in OSAS.
IMO, MILLIONS have lost the salvation they initially had because of this.

I agree but I see it a little different. The OSAS doctrine has an influence on people losing salvation but the Holy Spirit would let the person know in some way that just because they said a prayer to be saved doesn't mean anything unless they are making Jesus as their Lord also. I think people might confess that a person can be saved and still live a sinful life and still make it to heaven in the end but in their heart they know better. Kind of like lying to themselves.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Jesus was talking about how the Pharisees pick and choose what commands to follow because of their oral traditions.........
We however are not holding to the traditions of men, but rather to the teachings of God through his Scriptures.... ... ...
This command for example, to obey the leaders in my Church and submit to them. This doesn't mean I obey them when they are contrary to Scripture, but it means I am held accountable which to me is very important.
..........

I think they can be both. It depends on the doctrine. Among doctrines that I believe can be harmful would be OSAS, the pre-trib rapture and the doctrine that all you have to do to be saved is to pray a "sinner's prayer", and it doesn't matter what you do after that (closely related to OSAS).The TOG

the recovery of the truth has been going on steadily since martin luther, and earlier by many accounts. the 'church leaders' buried the truth with constantine, as well known by most readers here. then the dark ages, when people were put to death if they were caught with a bible (they were put to death by priests and bishops under orders from the supreme commander in rome).
then God instituted HIS PLAN, and starting with martin luther start "SET MY PEOPLE FREE" - little by little, big steps, little steps etc ...
today,
some of HIS PEOPLE ARE FREE, some are not . some are still bound and gagged by religious authorities.
even if you think or claim "we are not following the traditiions of men" , well, that's open for appraisal. God brings it to the Light, step by step, as He Pleases.
TOG listed a few of the dark ages deceptions many men are still bound by, hurt by, and worse happens.
Zain may have stepped on some toes, whether in wisdom of truth or zeal or knowledge; but if he is simply one of those of us set free
from the bondage of the dark ages past, coming out into the Light of God's Revelation and Exulting REJOICING IN YESHUA !
then step by step let's learn what is true - it won't happen in this thread except in small part. it will take years, and in person in most places, (online never takes the place of in person fellowship wherever you are or must go).

 

[John Zain]

How do i know the scripture i am reading is wise and has not been tampered with?.

Please prepare to have your mind blown!

Man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Man has always needed for God to show us the way to heaven, etc.
Man has been given Scriptures by God so he can learn spiritual Truth.
Man has NO choice but to trust what he has been blessed with.
Guess what that is!
Whatever is in your hands, whatever shape it is in ... it is ALL that you have to rely on.
That and the Holy Spirit, of course.

P.S. And you can forget all of the doctrines of men
that have been floating around, and been disagreed with, for eons.
We all need to come to the Truth via da black below ...

 

[John Zain]

... the recovery of the truth has been going on steadily since martin luther

Yes, especially since 1900, when God started pouring out His end-time spiritual gifts!
Now, how they have been appropriated by the church is another story.

Thanks for sharing your spiritual wisdom and understanding.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Yes, especially since 1900, when God started pouring out His end-time spiritual gifts!
Now, how they have been appropriated by the church is another story.
.

I don't know if I agree with you or not, on many things, or even on a few things - but I think so. It is practically impossible online to know anything anyway -- there are so many 'closet pagans' pretending to be 'upright pillars' on every website that we just never know without testing over a long time (usually). They tend to give themselves away, though, but that's for another time and place.

the church is God's concern. so many of man's building have been built on quicksand and wash away, or worse on , very long tradition, and might stand until Yeshua returns . (worse because of the ongoing chicanery when present). but God knows all this, and is not surprised at man's deceitfulness both to himself and to other men. we ourselves were once not just deceived, but DEAD, so it is only by grace at all that we might proceed , Yhwh willing. (and YHWH IS DELIGHTED ! when His people gather together in person and talk about Him).(Malachi)

 

[DRS81]

Examples of false doctrines taught in many churches
-- once saved always saved

OSAS is not false. By His grace and our faith, we are saved. Thank you Lord.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

OSAS is not false. By His grace and our faith, we are saved. Thank you Lord.

for those who are saved and endure to the end, they are saved and endure to the end.
for those who do not endure to the end, osas doesn't help them at all.