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REDEMPTION (ATONEMENT): US vs THEM [the L of TULIP]

atpollard

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There are different theories about REDEMPTION.

We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem.

Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical terms how THEIR view is wrong and OUR view is correct. Nothing more and nothing less.

PART I: THEM
THEY claim that Jesus Christ did not die with the intent to save any particular person. When Jesus died, that death did not, all alone and completely by itself, secure the salvation of any specific living human being beyond any shadow of a doubt. THEY teach that Jesus Christ died to make salvation possible for all men and available to all men … that because of Christ’s work of redemption, any man who pleases may obtain eternal life by doing something else.

If THEY are willing to be honest, then THEY will be forced to admit that IF no man was willing to give way and voluntarily surrender to God’s grace, then Christ’s atonement would have saved no one. THEY must admit that in their belief there is no PARTICULARITY in the atonement of Christ for one individual over another. According to THEM, Jesus Christ died on the cross for Judas in hell as much as for Peter in heaven. THEY believe that for every person who is consigned to the eternal fires of hell, there was a redemption made that was every bit as real, and was identical to, the redemption made for every person who stands before the throne in heaven.

PART II: US
WE believe that when Jesus Christ died, that He had an objective in view. WE believe that objective will with complete assurance and beyond any shadow of a doubt be accomplished. WE measure the intent of the death of Christ by the effect that it accomplished. If THEY were to ask US the question:

What was the purpose or intention of Christ’s death?

WE would respond with the obvious answer: “What the death of Christ accomplished.” The measure of the effect IS the measure of the intent when one is speaking of God’s Love. Is is nonsense to think that God Almighty’s intentions could be frustrated by anything! It beggars the imagination that the design of something so great as the Atonement could have in any way, shape or form missed the mark in any measure.

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:
  • be cleansed from sin
  • be washed in His blood
  • stand redeemed before the Father’s throne
WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE cannot think that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew could never be saved. WE cannot believe that the precious blood of Christ was pointlessly shed for those that were already damned and in hell when (as THEY would have US believe) Christ died to save them!

PART III: THE FALSE ACCUSATION
THEY will often make the accusation of US:

Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ because WE say Christ did not die to bring Sanctification to all men.

This accusation is false, it is THEY that limit the atonement. WE do not.

THEY say Christ died for all men, but that death did not secure the salvation of all men. (Even THEY are not UNIVERSALISTS arguing that there is no hell). THEY teach that Christ did not UNCONDITIONALLY secure the salvation of any man in particular. They teach “Christ died so that any man may be saved if …” - then come the conditions for salvation. Above and beyond this, THEY typically believe that a man can fall from Grace even after they have been justified. So then … who is it that really limits the death of Christ? THEM! THEY say that the death of Christ did not irresistibly secure the death of anybody, but accuse US of limiting the death of Christ.

WE say that Jesus Christ died to, with complete certainty, secure the salvation of “a multitude that no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. WE say that through Christ’s death this multitude of individuals not only MAY be saved, but MUST be saved, and WILL be saved … there is no possibility of any outcome other than their being saved!

So who really has a limited view of Christ’s death: US or THEM?

Charles Spurgeon presented this issue with a terrific analogy. THEY (Arminians / Free Will / General Atonement) is like a great wide bridge that spans only half way across a river: it does not secure salvation for anybody, but has room for everybody. WE (Calvinist / Reformed / Particular Atonement) is like a narrow bridge that spans all the way across the river: it secures salvation for all who cross it and none others.

Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.” - C.H. Spurgeon

Me, too.

PART IV: THE VERSE
Those that know me, know that I like a scripture verse to support what I say. Recently I have observed that posting many verses just leads to many bunny trails. Therefore I offer just one verse (from two places):

  • Matthew 20:28 [NKJV] "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

  • Mark 10:45 [NKJV] "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
 

wondering

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There are different theories about REDEMPTION.

We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem.

Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical terms how THEIR view is wrong and OUR view is correct. Nothing more and nothing less.

There are 7 or 8 theories of atonement.
How could it be OURS and THEIRS?
You mean the reformed have their very own theory??
Guess we'll soon find out...

PART I: THEM
THEY claim that Jesus Christ did not die with the intent to save any particular person. When Jesus died, that death did not, all alone and completely by itself, secure the salvation of any specific living human being beyond any shadow of a doubt. THEY teach that Jesus Christ died to make salvation possible for all men and available to all men … that because of Christ’s work of redemption, any man who pleases may obtain eternal life by doing something else.

If THEY are willing to be honest, then THEY will be forced to admit that IF no man was willing to give way and voluntarily surrender to God’s grace, then Christ’s atonement would have saved no one. THEY must admit that in their belief there is no PARTICULARITY in the atonement of Christ for one individual over another. According to THEM, Jesus Christ died on the cross for Judas in hell as much as for Peter in heaven. THEY believe that for every person who is consigned to the eternal fires of hell, there was a redemption made that was every bit as real, and was identical to, the redemption made for every person who stands before the throne in heaven.

OK. You're not really addressing the atonement theories but LIMITED ATONEMENT.


Yes. Jesus died for everyone. Also for Judas in hell, except Judas didn't take advantage of it.
Everyone that was every saved, past, present and future, was saved by Jesus' sacrifice.
I don't understand the sentence above that I highlighted, but it's probably not important to the discussion.

The theory of limited atonement is so extreme that some reformed cannot even accept it...I mean reformed theologians.

Also, I think I could safely assume that you know that the Penal Substitution Theory came about after the reformation, although I know you don't accept this. Penal Substitution is necessary if one believes that Jesus died for a select few....He would have died in their place to appease a wrathful God.

1 John 2:2
...And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Jesus died for all men, just as Adam sinned for all men.
Jesus was the solution for Adam's sin...so His sacrifice had to be for all.
John 14:16
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus died for all so that whoever may wish to can accept His sacrifice and spend eternity in heaven.
We are saved BY GRACE through the instrument of FAITH, all 3 are gifts from God and He can offer this gift to everyone because Jesus died for everyone.


John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!



PART II: US
WE believe that when Jesus Christ died, that He had an objective in view. WE believe that objective will with complete assurance and beyond any shadow of a doubt be accomplished. WE measure the intent of the death of Christ by the effect that it accomplished. If THEY were to ask US the question:

What was the purpose or intention of Christ’s death?

WE would respond with the obvious answer: “What the death of Christ accomplished.” The measure of the effect IS the measure of the intent when one is speaking of God’s Love. Is is nonsense to think that God Almighty’s intentions could be frustrated by anything! It beggars the imagination that the design of something so great as the Atonement could have in any way, shape or form missed the mark in any measure.

Why must it have missed the mark if God offered the gift to all?
If God proposed from the beginning, to "elect" or predestinate who would be saved...
WHY was Jesus sacrifice necessary?

"What the death of Christ accomplished" is not a real answer.

Therefore, WE are not afraid to believe, proclaim and firmly hold that Jesus Christ came into the the world to accomplish exactly what He did accomplish … to save “a multitude which no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. Furthermore, because of this, WE believe that every person for whom Christ died must - beyond the shadow of a doubt certain:
  • be cleansed from sin
  • be washed in His blood
  • stand redeemed before the Father’s throne
WE do not believe that Jesus made any atonement for those that are damned. Christ only makes EFFECTUAL atonement, Christ does not fail in atoning for people. WE cannot think that the blood of Christ was spilled with the intention of saving those whom GOD Foreknew could never be saved. WE cannot believe that the precious blood of Christ was pointlessly shed for those that were already damned and in hell when (as THEY would have US believe) Christ died to save them!

Of course the problem here are terms that are not even biblical.
Where does the NT speak of EFFECTUAL ATONEMENT?
God foreknew who would be saved, but, alas, it was still a free will decision.
Not having a theological belief in free will does cause a lot of verses to be misunderstood.

And certainly those in hell are not saved.

PART III: THE FALSE ACCUSATION
THEY will often make the accusation of US:

Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ because WE say Christ did not die to bring Sanctification to all men.

This accusation is false, it is THEY that limit the atonement. WE do not.

THEY say Christ died for all men, but that death did not secure the salvation of all men. (Even THEY are not UNIVERSALISTS arguing that there is no hell). THEY teach that Christ did not UNCONDITIONALLY secure the salvation of any man in particular. They teach “Christ died so that any man may be saved if …” - then come the conditions for salvation. Above and beyond this, THEY typically believe that a man can fall from Grace even after they have been justified. So then … who is it that really limits the death of Christ? THEM! THEY say that the death of Christ did not irresistibly secure the death of anybody, but accuse US of limiting the death of Christ.

WE say that Jesus Christ died to, with complete certainty, secure the salvation of “a multitude that no man can number” [Revelation 7:9]. WE say that through Christ’s death this multitude of individuals not only MAY be saved, but MUST be saved, and WILL be saved … there is no possibility of any outcome other than their being saved!

So who really has a limited view of Christ’s death: US or THEM?

Charles Spurgeon presented this issue with a terrific analogy. THEY (Arminians / Free Will / General Atonement) is like a great wide bridge that spans only half way across a river: it does not secure salvation for anybody, but has room for everybody. WE (Calvinist / Reformed / Particular Atonement) is like a narrow bridge that spans all the way across the river: it secures salvation for all who cross it and none others.

Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.” - C.H. Spurgeon

Me, too.

PART IV: THE VERSE
Those that know me, know that I like a scripture verse to support what I say. Recently I have observed that posting many verses just leads to many bunny trails. Therefore I offer just one verse (from two places):

  • Matthew 20:28 [NKJV] "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

  • Mark 10:45 [NKJV] "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
So many means many, but the world means some.
A drunk wife - A full barrell.
(no can do).


RC Sproul
GRACE UNKNOWN
Baker Books
Page 165

"The value of Christ's atonement is sufficient to cover the sins of the world..."

His perfect sacrifice must be of infinite value.
 

atpollard

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Where does the NT speak of EFFECTUAL ATONEMENT?
Where does the bible speak of "Ineffectual Atonement" ... Jesus dying for sins and God ignoring that Atonement to send people to HELL for those very same sins?

If the ATONEMENT was REAL (ie. real sins were actually forgiven by the Blood of Jesus and people were really saved), then it must be EFFECTIVE (actually forgive sins and secure salvation).
 

atpollard

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OK. You're not really addressing the atonement theories but LIMITED ATONEMENT.
I am going through TULIP one letter at a time after all ... (L) is for Limited Atonement. 🙂
(I feel like one of those Alphabet Books).
 

atpollard

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So many means many, but the world means some.
"World" means more than "some" ... a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” ... it means a whole WORLD of people all LOVED BY GOD and all offering praises to GOD!

(It does not mean ... "The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." ... the wicked are loved and will be invited to the Lamb's Supper.)
 

wondering

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I am going through TULIP one letter at a time after all ... (L) is for Limited Atonement. 🙂
(I feel like one of those Alphabet Books).
Been gone a few days.
We had mentioned about Penal Substitution and Cristus Victus.
Silly me.
 

brightfame52

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wondering
Jesus died for all men, just as Adam sinned for all men.
Jesus was the solution for Adam's sin...so His sacrifice had to be for all.

Are you sure about that ? Was Adams sin representative of all men, or only some men, the sons of God
 

wondering

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"World" means more than "some" ... a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” ... it means a whole WORLD of people all LOVED BY GOD and all offering praises to GOD!

(It does not mean ... "The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." ... the wicked are loved and will be invited to the Lamb's Supper.)
World means the whole world.
God loved the whole world so much that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him will not perish...but have everlasting life.

John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
Do you believe this?”


It's prescriptive.
 

brightfame52

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atpollard
(It does not mean ... "The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." ... the wicked are loved and will be invited to the Lamb's Supper.)

Thats a bold statement which I believe is false. The wicked are under Judgement until the day of wrath Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
They are the vessels of wrath made by God to fit them for destruction Rom 9 21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 

brightfame52

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There are 7 or 8 theories of atonement.
How could it be OURS and THEIRS?
You mean the reformed have their very own theory??
Guess we'll soon find out...



OK. You're not really addressing the atonement theories but LIMITED ATONEMENT.


Yes. Jesus died for everyone. Also for Judas in hell, except Judas didn't take advantage of it.
Everyone that was every saved, past, present and future, was saved by Jesus' sacrifice.
I don't understand the sentence above that I highlighted, but it's probably not important to the discussion.

The theory of limited atonement is so extreme that some reformed cannot even accept it...I mean reformed theologians.

Also, I think I could safely assume that you know that the Penal Substitution Theory came about after the reformation, although I know you don't accept this. Penal Substitution is necessary if one believes that Jesus died for a select few....He would have died in their place to appease a wrathful God.

1 John 2:2
...And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Jesus died for all men, just as Adam sinned for all men.
Jesus was the solution for Adam's sin...so His sacrifice had to be for all.
John 14:16
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus died for all so that whoever may wish to can accept His sacrifice and spend eternity in heaven.
We are saved BY GRACE through the instrument of FAITH, all 3 are gifts from God and He can offer this gift to everyone because Jesus died for everyone.


John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!





Why must it have missed the mark if God offered the gift to all?
If God proposed from the beginning, to "elect" or predestinate who would be saved...
WHY was Jesus sacrifice necessary?

"What the death of Christ accomplished" is not a real answer.



Of course the problem here are terms that are not even biblical.
Where does the NT speak of EFFECTUAL ATONEMENT?
God foreknew who would be saved, but, alas, it was still a free will decision.
Not having a theological belief in free will does cause a lot of verses to be misunderstood.

And certainly those in hell are not saved.


So many means many, but the world means some.
A drunk wife - A full barrell.
(no can do).


RC Sproul
GRACE UNKNOWN
Baker Books
Page 165

"The value of Christ's atonement is sufficient to cover the sins of the world..."

His perfect sacrifice must be of infinite value.
It is however its limited in purpose, never intended for the non elect.
 

atpollard

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Thats a bold statement which I believe is false. The wicked are under Judgement until the day of wrath Job 21:30
I agree … my statement from the post was a direct biblical quote (Proverbs 16:4) and an example of what it does NOT mean (“loving the world” does not mean the wicked are loved and invited to the feast.)
 
Last edited:

atpollard

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You were non elect once.
It was meant for you.
Was he?

[Romans 8:29-30 NLT]
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

[Ephesians 1:4-5 NLT]
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.


[Romans 9:18-24 NLT]
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"

No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
 
Last edited:

wondering

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The elect, whomever they may be, are never non elect, thats a foolish unlearned comment.
How could it be foolish if the bible teaches that we are all lost until we become saved?

It's your belief system that makes it seem wrong.
 

brightfame52

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How could it be foolish if the bible teaches that we are all lost until we become saved?

It's your belief system that makes it seem wrong.
Im sorry, there is nothing I can say that can give you understanding. All my views have been explained already in my various threads, if you are opposed to them, nothing else I can say to explain.
 

wondering

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Im sorry, there is nothing I can say that can give you understanding. All my views have been explained already in my various threads, if you are opposed to them, nothing else I can say to explain.
Why do I need understanding?
Why dont YOU need the understanding?
Also, i dont read all your posts, how am I supposed to know what you believe?
I just know that it's not what the NT teaches.
 

wondering

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Was he?

[Romans 8:29-30 NLT]
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

[Ephesians 1:4-5 NLT]
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.


[Romans 9:18-24 NLT]
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"

No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
 

brightfame52

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Why do I need understanding?
Why dont YOU need the understanding?
Also, i dont read all your posts, how am I supposed to know what you believe?
I just know that it's not what the NT teaches.
Why do you need understanding ? Its appropriate to understand. Prov 4:7

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding

Also if you dont read my posts, you must not be interested in my views. When I want to know what a person believes, I read their posts, usually they divulge what the person believes, it seems like common sense to me.
 
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