REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AT THE SECOND COMING

[n2thelight]

There is absolutely no reason to apply symbolism to the detailed description of the 144,000 redeemed Jews.

1. They are Jews belonging to the 12 tribes of Israel.
2. The number and tribe of each one is stated to give a total of 144,000.
3. They are not only redeemed Jews, but literally virgins who follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Because they are raptured during the Tribulation, we see them singing before the throne of God.
5. We can reasonably conclude that they are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

There are certain schools of theology which insist on treating almost everything in Revelation as symbolic, but that simply turns Scripture on its head. The things which are symbolic are clearly identified as symbolic, e.g. the candlesticks represent the churches, and the stars represent the angels in Revelation 1.

Again,Jew's DO NOT make up all 12 tribes

 

[Jim Parker]

There is absolutely no reason to apply symbolism to the detailed description of the 144,000 redeemed Jews.

So there's no reason to take highly symbolic, apocalyptic literature as being highly symbolic and apocalyptic!
Interesting.

 

[Sinthesis]

Nobody yet has given us a reason why Ephraim is not included in the list in Revelation yet.

By extension maybe you could include it through Joseph....but where Joseph was a son he never became a tribe.
Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted by Jacob.
Joseph might have had more kids but we don't know that for certain.

So why use Joseph instead of Ephraim?

According to my peculiar understanding of Revelation, the reason is because in chapter 7:4-8 only Joseph and Manasses are tribes symbolic of Christians among the servants of our God. Joseph symbolizes Christians of Jewish descent, while Manasses symbolizes gentile Christians adopted into Israel. The other ten tribes symbolize those of Israel still waiting for their Messiah because they don't realize He is Jesus. In this particular model, Ephraim is symbolic of the great multitude which comes 'after this' (Rev 7:9), who is greater than his elder (earlier) brother (Gen 48:19).

 

[Malachi]

Again,Jew's DO NOT make up all 12 tribes

Well then they would not be Jews would they? You really believe that God does not know who belongs to which tribe?

 

[Malachi]

So there's no reason to take highly symbolic, apocalyptic literature as being highly symbolic and apocalyptic!
Interesting.

If you would set aside your *apocalyptic literature* glasses, and read and study Revelation as you would any other prophetic book, you would discover that while there are symbols used (e.g. Mystery Babylon is depicted as an harlot) the bulk of revelation is plain factual prophetical material. The 144,000 cannot by any stretch of the imagination be taken to symbolize the Jehovah's Witnesses for example. Nor can they be carelessly classified as Gentiles.

 

[selihah]

Again,Jew's DO NOT make up all 12 tribes

Very true, The children of Israel are shemites or semmetic people. Jew is short for Judean (Judah) people and make up only a portion of the whole.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you would set aside your *apocalyptic literature* glasses, and read and study Revelation as you would any other prophetic book,

That would require that I ignore the FACT that it is apocalyptic. It would be absurd to try to read an apocalyptic book as if it were a newspaper article. The visions which John related were beyond accurate description in human language.
And prophesy deals primarily with warning, admonishment, rebuke, and encouragement, not prediction.

the bulk of revelation is plain factual prophetical material.

Nonsense.

The 144,000 cannot by any stretch of the imagination be taken to symbolize the Jehovah's Witnesses for example. Nor can they be carelessly classified as Gentiles.

Nobody in this discussion suggested that.
The absurdity is that you insist on assuming that the highly symbolic passages of Revelation have the meaning of your personal interpretation and that, somehow, your personal interpretation should be accepted as "literal."
Another absurdity is that you are serious.

 

[WIP]

I've been away for over a week and I haven't had opportunity to go back and read through this entire thread but this last page is quite personal. How about we get the discussion back on the topic and off of each other beginning now?!

And please, don't even attempt to get the last word in.

 

[n2thelight]

Well then they would not be Jews would they? You really believe that God does not know who belongs to which tribe?

Really not understanding your point.So like I said not all of Israel are Jew's And that's my point

 

[smaller]

The crux of this particular presentation, the salvation of Israel, is located in Romans 11, specifically in vs. 25-32 wherein Paul describes quite clearly that "all" of Israel shall be saved and that includes enemies of the Gospel.

Some speculate who is not Israel, and Paul also addressed that matter long before he got to the finale on this subject specifically in Romans 11:8 and also in chapter 7 and 9 of Romans.

So, without getting into a sidebar about the 144,000 in Rev. being all of Israel including enemies of the Gospel which they obviously are not, the above is where the meat of the conversation resides.

Paul also terms this matter "a mystery" which makes it territory that not everyone can come to grips with, nor will they, nor can they. Mysteries are somewhat mysterious contemplations all around to begin with. It's quite easy for me to read and see that all of Israel including enemies of the Gospel shall be saved and blanket the entire lot of "all of them" and also to see "who is not Israel" in Romans 11:8 but others can read the same things and not see or perceive any of it whatsoever. Strange, ain't it?

 

[Malachi]

Really not understanding your point.So like I said not all of Israel are Jew's And that's my point

Well then your point is that some of Israel are Gentiles, but that is not God's point. That is just yours.

 

[Malachi]

Paul describes quite clearly that "all" of Israel shall be saved and that includes enemies of the Gospel.

Well, just to clarify, Paul is looking into the future prophetically, when Christ comes as the Deliverer out of Zion at His Second Coming. When that happens all the Jews worldwide (with the exception of some rebels) will be gathered to the land of Israel, and will acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as their Divine King-Messiah, and be saved. Hence "all Israel shall be saved". And Israel will be seen as the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hence belonging to the 12 tribes. The tribe of Dan has been excluded, and Ephraim (called the tribe of Joseph) and Manasseh are treated as two tribes. Why anyone would try to bring Gentiles into the picture is rather bizarre.

 

[reba]

The Cross of Jesus was/is the redemption ... any here believe there is a better or different redemption?

Eph_1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[reba]

Why anyone would try to bring Gentiles into the picture is rather bizarre.

Is God's word bizarre?

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[smaller]

Well, just to clarify, Paul is looking into the future prophetically, when Christ comes as the Deliverer out of Zion at His Second Coming.

In some senses, yes. But as we can both read, the all of Israel who are saved "are" enemies of the Gospel, not "will be enemies" of the Gospel in a future Israel.

Romans 11:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Are enemies are NOT a future Israel and that's why reading their salvation as some future tense won't work and has to be ascribed at a minimum to enemies present at the time Paul wrote "are enemies." Just as they ARE loved, present tense. And would logically extend in reverse to make it ALL Israel saved.

I've also addressed from scripture who is not Israel that is of Israel from Romans 11:8, that being the spirit of slumber that was put upon them all who do not believe. This also ties in directly with the presentations in Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14 and 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 for a personal kicker.

When that happens all the Jews worldwide (with the exception of some rebels) will be gathered to the land of Israel, and will acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as their Divine King-Messiah, and be saved. Hence "all Israel shall be saved".

And that is merely you ascribing future tense Israel as the "all" when that is obviously not the case nor can it be the case. All of Israel means ALL of Israel. Every last one of them.

And Israel will be seen as the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hence belonging to the 12 tribes. The tribe of Dan has been excluded, and Ephraim (called the tribe of Joseph) and Manasseh are treated as two tribes. Why anyone would try to bring Gentiles into the picture is rather bizarre.

Dan is not excluded from Romans 11 "all of Israel." I've already briefly addressed the construct of the tribes earlier in this thread. The figures from Rev. are exactly that. Figures of deeper matters. But I figure you are a more literal tense guy. We're not going to be seeing an external "seal" on the foreheads of Jews at the end. It just ain't going down that way a'tall. It's not a literal matter or a literal number or a literal external seal. None of it is literal, but all of it is quite Spiritually REAL.

Some literalist people think allegories, symbols, figures and parables are not real. They are quite real. More real than just "literal physical."

 

[n2thelight]

Well then your point is that some of Israel are Gentiles, but that is not God's point. That is just yours.

What is the meaning of Gentile in scripture?Do a study and get back with me....

Here's a hint

The term "gentiles" is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the bible. The original words goy and ethnos refer to "peoples" or "nations" and is applied to both Israelites and non-Israelites in the bible.

And by the way,I didn't seperate Judah(Jews)from Israel,scripture does!