Reformed Theology Makes God The Author of Sin!

[JLB]

To say Adam transgressed the law by having a different nature than men after him is completely and totally FALSE.

Adam was sinless when he transgressed God’s commandment.

The only other sinless Man was Jesus.

 

[LeviR]

Adam was sinless when he transgressed God’s commandment.

The only other sinless Man was Jesus.

Adam was sinless until the law came. By the law is the knowledge of sin.
Without the law there is no sin.
Adam’s nature is revealed by the giving of the law.
This becomes obvious when Eve coveted the fruit.
By the law, their nature is revealed to be sinful.
They were naked before they sinned and realized they were naked after.

 

[JLB]

Adam was sinless until the law came. By the law is the knowledge of sin.

Adam was sinless until he sinned… until he transgressed God’s command.

 

[LeviR]

Adam was sinless until he sinned.

It was not his nature that caused him to sin?

God said don’t eat, Adam desired to eat, so he ate. If it was not of his own natural desire to eat, he would not have been sentenced to death.

If you can’t get this you’ll be led astray right from the start.

 

[SolaScriptura]

To say Adam transgressed the law by having a different nature than men after him is completely and totally FALSE.

?

 

[LeviR]

?

I believe this is the idea of most of Christianity:

“In mainstream (Nicene) Christianity, the doctrine of the Fall is closely related to that of original sin or ancestral sin.[2]Nicene Christians believe that the Fall brought sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin, a state from which they cannot attain eternal life without the grace of God.” Wikipedia—Fall of man

This teaches that “the Fall” corrupted human nature causing all humans to be born with a corrupted nature”

First of all, I would not say Adam was born with a corrupted nature and neither does scripture.
Adam’s nature was that of man. The same nature all men share.
God created man the way He wanted to.
Adam and Eve desired to eat of the only thing they couldn’t.
Adam and Eve desired to be like God, so they ate.

That is not a corrupted nature, it’s the natural nature.
It was the same before and after sin.
The law made transgression possible.
But the law is not corrupt, it is good.

 

[LeviR]

To say my nature has been corrupted by Adam is false.

My nature is sinful like Adam’s because the law says so.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I asked you the question about Eve having desires because long ago I was told that the nature that Adam and Eve were created with had changed after they ate the fruit.
I understand the word “nature” (physis in Greek) refers to the constitution of something. Or the physical condition of a thing.

What I was told about Adam’s nature changing after he sinned is false.
And this is easily demonstrated by the fact that Adam’s physical condition was the same both before and after he sinned showing that he sinned of his own desire to be as the God he had come to know. And Eve was deceived into desiring the same thing.

Before they ate the fruit, God's original order was adulterated, "don't even touch it" was added, "the day you eat of it" was removed, so in a way Eve was already deceived, Adam didn't relay God's words faithfully, and that left a vulnerbility for Satan to exploit.

Also, I'm sure Adam's physical condition did change, though not immediately and apparently. Without the nourishment from the Tree of Life he began to age, deteriorate and eventually he died at 930. On the molecular level he was definitely not the same after being banished from Eden.

 

[SolaScriptura]

The OP is supposed to be on Reformed theology making God the author of sin. It has now completely moved over to the fall of Adam and Eve.

It will be better for a new thread to be started on this very important teaching

 

[LeviR]

The OP is supposed to be on Reformed theology making God the author of sin. It has now completely moved over to the fall of Adam and Eve.

It will be better for a new thread to be started on this very important teaching

God’s law makes man a sinner. Who’s gonna argue with that?

 

[SolaScriptura]

God’s law makes man a sinner. Who’s gonna argue with that?

and so called "Reformed" theology makes God the author of sin, and the Bible argues with that!

 

[LeviR]

and so called "Reformed" theology makes God the author of sin, and the Bible argues with that!

I don’t follow them.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

and so called "Reformed" theology makes God the author of sin, and the Bible argues with that!

Look, here's the problem with this "author of sin" rant. I think at least we can agree that "sin" by definition means "missing the mark" by deviating from God's will, it only exists in a sense of negation, as the opposite of God's will. If there's no God, then there's no God's will, and there's no sin. It's like dark is the absence of light, cold is the absence of heat, vacuum is the absence of matter, evil is the absence of goodness, chaos is the absence of order, these concepts by and of themselves don't exist, they are all states of privation. Therefore, if God is the author of his own will, how could he also be the author against his own will - which would be the definition of sin? This makes the statement "God the author of sin" self contradictory. In several instances God seemingly changed his mind, for example, right after the golden calf incident, God threatened to wipe out Israel and start over with Moses, Moses interceded, and God "relented", that doesn't make God sin against himself.

Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” (Ex. 32:10)
So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. (Ex. 32:14)

 

[SolaScriptura]

Look, here's the problem with this "author of sin" rant. I think at least we can agree that "sin" by definition means "missing the mark" by deviating from God's will, it only exists in a sense of negation, as the opposite of God's will. If there's no God, then there's no God's will, and there's no sin. It's like dark is the absence of light, cold is the absence of heat, vacuum is the absence of matter, evil is the absence of goodness, chaos is the absence of order, these concepts by and of themselves don't exist, they are all states of privation. Therefore, if God is the author of his own will, how could he also be the author against his own will - which would be the definition of sin? This makes the statement "God the author of sin" self contradictory. In several instances God seemingly changed his mind, for example, right after the golden calf incident, God threatened to wipe out Israel and start over with Moses, Moses interceded, and God "relented", that doesn't make God sin against himself.

Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” (Ex. 32:10)
So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. (Ex. 32:14)

And exactly what is your rant about?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And exactly what is your rant about?

Mocking whatever you're ranting about. There're good things ordained by God for his purposes, there're also evil things allowed by God as a test of faith and character, see Job 1. He gave Satan permission.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Mocking whatever you're ranting about. There're good things ordained by God for his purposes, there're also evil things allowed by God as a test of faith and character, see Job 1. He gave Satan permission.

stick to the OP!

 

[JLB]

God’s law makes man a sinner. Who’s gonna argue with that?

How does a righteous law "make" man a sinner?

Please explain.

 

[LeviR]

How does a righteous law "make" man a sinner?

Please explain.

Paul was an expert on the law.
In Romans 5 he talked about how Adam’s sin brought death to all of mankind. It(sin)brought death to Paul.

In Romans 7 Paul explains how he has died by sin (Adam’s sin).

Rom 7:7 - What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Rom 7:8 - But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 - I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Rom 7:10 - And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

Rom 7:11 - For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

Rom 7:12 - Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

This is what happened in the garden that brought death to Adam and Paul and all the rest of us.

Man would not have known sin except by the law. And he would not know covetousness unless the law had said “you shall not covet”
You shall not desire what does not belong to you. The fruit.
But sin, which is conceived by desire(James 1:13) took opportunity by the law of you shall not desire and produced in him all desire.
Man was alive before the law, but when the commandment came, sin was made alive and killed him.
It was sin which deceived him and killed him.

This is how it worked:

The law came, don’t eat that fruit.
Then came desire to eat the fruit.
The desire brought forth sin.
And sin took the fruit and killed man.
Man transgressed the law by the sin that was produced in him by his own desire.

That’s how the law made the man a sinner.

 

[JLB]

The law came, don’t eat that fruit.
Then came desire to eat the fruit.
The desire brought forth sin.
And sin took the fruit and killed man.
Man transgressed the law by the sin that was produced in him by his own desire.

Brother, you are trying to convince us that God’s word caused this sinless woman to sin. :drool


There was no desire to eat the fruit (disobey) until Satan came along and started speaking, thus defiled her to desire the fruit in which she was enticed to sin (eat the fruit).


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:1-6

• “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

• Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

• So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life came from Satan into the woman, and defiled her, and enticed her to sin.


The woman saw and desired AFTER Satan came along.




JLB

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

stick to the OP!

I've been stuck to the OP all the time, at least in my conversation with you. God puts his own people through trials and tribulations, he give Satan permission, he let his only begotten son be crucified on the cross, that is most definitely determined in advance, but none of those makes God the "author of sin". I think you're just triggered by certain words.