Reformed Theology Makes God The Author of Sin!

[Carry_Your_Name]

you are avoiding what Paul clearly says in 1 Timothy!

that it was Eve, who was DECEIVED by the devil!

And you're avoiding what the Lord says in Luke 12. Adam knew better than Eve, he consciously, intellectually and willingly disobeyed God.

 

[LeviR]

It was a trick question, a loaded question with a misogynistic undertone, that's the problem.

I’m sure you have no idea what you are talking about.
No one has any problem answering that question. Only you.

 

[LeviR]

you are avoiding what Paul clearly says in 1 Timothy!

that it was Eve, who was DECEIVED by the devil!

When God put Adam in the garden He told him not to eat of that one tree or else he would die. It was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

After God made women, she met the serpent in the garden. It is mostly likely Adam told Eve about not eating of the tree or she would die.
When Eve relays this to the serpent, she mentions nothing about what the tree was called, but only that she was not to eat or touch it or she would die.

The serpent was very cunning. He must have known what was said to Adam about the tree being of the knowledge of good and evil.
And something else. That it would open her eyes and she would be as God.

It’s obvious the serpent had information that Eve had not.

I don’t imagine Adam and Eve were left in the garden all alone. They were interacting with, most likely angels. And God was speaking to him. Most likely the Angel of the Lord who was heard walking in the garden.

The craftiness of the serpent was to give the information he knew to Eve. That was the deceiving part.

And after the serpent spoke to Eve she saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise. desire to be as the serpent said, having her eyes opened to be like God.

That was all it took. Eve’s desire was inflamed more so for the fruit. And she took it and gave Adam and he ate.

Adam was not deceived he knew what the tree was and knew not to eat it, but did anyway, of his own desire.

What’s so hard about asking if Eve, or Adam desired the fruit or not?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I’m sure you have no idea what you are talking about.
No one has any problem answering that question. Only you.

I knew exactly what I'm talking about. You phrased your question with an accusatory, incriminating tone, blaming Eve the original sin when it was Adam's fault and responsiblity. You deliberately and relentlessly went after her and not Adam who was in charge of the garden and who was NOT deceived.

 

[LeviR]

I knew exactly what I'm talking about. You phrased your question with an accusatory, incriminating tone, blaming Eve the original sin when it was Adam's fault and responsiblity. You deliberately and relentlessly went after her and not Adam who was in charge of the garden and who was NOT deceived.

I wasn’t blaming anyone. You seem to be blaming Adam. I’m not even blaming Adam. I’m just saying they all were punished for their part.
Adam didn’t make himself, God made him. And I’m not blaming God either. If God made Adam with a desire to eat, Adam can’t blame God for that.
If God made Adam with a desire to be as the God he interacted with, then No one is to blame.
They ate the fruit because, not only was it good to look at, and good for food, but it would make them as God.
And it did, but only as far as knowing good and evil. It didn’t make them immortal.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

you are avoiding what Paul clearly says in 1 Timothy!

that it was Eve, who was DECEIVED by the devil!

Actually I didn't avoid it at all. Eve was deceived, she didn't know God's will as good as Adam did, she ignorantly sinned, whereas Adam defiantly sinned, that made him more guilty, according to God's standard in Lk. 12:47-48.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I wasn’t blaming anyone. You seem to be blaming Adam. I’m not even blaming Adam. I’m just saying they all were punished for their part.
Adam didn’t make himself, God made him. And I’m not blaming God either. If God made Adam with a desire to eat, Adam can’t blame God for that.
If God made Adam with a desire to be as the God he interacted with, then No one is to blame.
They ate the fruit because, not only was it good to look at, and good for food, but it would make them as God.
And it did, but only as far as knowing good and evil. It didn’t make them immortal.

You definitely seemed to be unfairly blaming Eve for succumbing to her own desire, the traditional misogynistic view that characterizes her as a temptress causing man to sin. And I'm pointing this out not as a feminist, but as a straight man.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Paul's words in 1 Tim 2:14, in the oldest Greek manuscripts is very important to our understanding of exactly what he is saying. The English loses the real force:

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed"

In the first use, for Adam, we have the simple form, "ἠπατήθη". However, in the oldest Greek manuscripts, we have the compound "ἐξαπατηθεῖσα", for Eve, and not, "ἀπατηθεῖσα". This change is of a later date.

Adam was "simply deceived", but for Eve we have the stronger word, with the meaning, "thoroughly deceived".

Eve was directly deceived by the devil, but Adam, by Eve, as the Lord says in 3:17:

"Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, `You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life"

Eve's deception was directly by the devil, while Adam's was indirectly through Eve.

This is Paul's argument here.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul's words in 1 Tim 2:14, in the oldest Greek manuscripts is very important to our understanding of exactly what he is saying. The English loses the real force:

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed"

In the first use, for Adam, we have the simple form, "ἠπατήθη". However, in the oldest Greek manuscripts, we have the compound "ἐξαπατηθεῖσα", for Eve, and not, "ἀπατηθεῖσα". This change is of a later date.

Adam was "simply deceived", but for Eve we have the stronger word, with the meaning, "thoroughly deceived".

Eve was directly deceived by the devil, but Adam, by Eve, as the Lord says in 3:17:

"Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, `You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life"

Eve's deception was directly by the devil, while Adam's was indirectly through Eve.

This is Paul's argument here.

And I never refuted this argument. It actually proved my point that Adam caved in to Eve and ate the forbidden fruit, he listened to her instead of God, he deserved harsher punishment than Eve. Abraham and Moses made the same kind of mistake, Abraham mated with Hagar, Moses struck the rock again for water, they let their emotion rule over their better judgement.

 

[SolaScriptura]

And I never refuted this argument. It actually proved my point that Adam caved in to Eve and ate the forbidden fruit, he listened to her instead of God, he deserved harsher punishment than Eve. Abraham and Moses made the same kind of mistake, Abraham mated with Hagar, Moses struck the rock again for water, they let their emotion rule over their better judgement.

are you a woman?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

are you a woman?

I revealed my answer to that in a previous post, go check it out yourself, I won't repeat.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I revealed my answer to that in a previous question, go check it out yourself, I won't repeat.

why can't you give a simple answer to a simple question? what are you hiding or afraid of?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

why can't you give a simple answer to a simple question? what are you hiding or afraid of?

Why are you being so nosy and inquisitive?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Why are you being so nosy and inquisitive?

because your answers are that of a WOMAN!

This would explain a lot of how you argue

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

because your answers are that of a WOMAN!

This would explain a lot of how you argue

But actually I'm not, see #127, believe it or not. And why does it bother you, man?

 

[SolaScriptura]

But actually I'm not, see #127, believe it or not. And why does it bother you, man?

Why should it bother me?

Your reasoning is very much as a woman does, and quite strange

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why should it bother me?

Your reasoning is very much as a woman does, and quite strange

What's really strange and outrageous is perpetuating this misogynistic narrative, that Eve the gullible dimwit fallen into temptation and seduced Adam into transgression, she was responsible for Adam's fall. If you follow this narrative, 1 Timothy 2:14 only makes it worse, it sends the message that woman is not only physically inferior because Eve was created after Adam, she's also intellectuall inferior because Eve not Adam was deceived, but it was Adam couldn't man up and own his mistake, he made a lame excuse by blaming Eve and sutbly blaming God for giving her to him, and this argument that Eve was being "enticed by her own desire" essentially justifies Adam's excuse with this narrative, that really bothers me.

 

[SolaScriptura]

What's really strange and outrageous is perpetuating this misogynistic narrative, that Eve the gullible dimwit fallen into temptation and seduced Adam into transgression, she was responsible for Adam's fall. If you follow this narrative, 1 Timothy 2:14 only makes it worse, it sends the message that woman is not only physically inferior because Eve was created after Adam, she's also intellectuall inferior because Eve not Adam was deceived, but it was Adam couldn't man up and own his mistake, he made a lame excuse by blaming Eve and sutbly blaming God for giving her to him, and this argument that Eve was being "enticed by her own desire" essentially justifies Adam's excuse with this narrative, that really bothers me.

 

[LeviR]

You definitely seemed to be unfairly blaming Eve for succumbing to her own desire, the traditional misogynistic view that characterizes her as a temptress causing man to sin. And I'm pointing this out not as a feminist, but as a straight man.

I asked you the question about Eve having desires because long ago I was told that the nature that Adam and Eve were created with had changed after they ate the fruit.
I understand the word “nature” (physis in Greek) refers to the constitution of something. Or the physical condition of a thing.

What I was told about Adam’s nature changing after he sinned is false.
And this is easily demonstrated by the fact that Adam’s physical condition was the same both before and after he sinned showing that he sinned of his own desire to be as the God he had come to know. And Eve was deceived into desiring the same thing.

 

[LeviR]

Paul's words in 1 Tim 2:14, in the oldest Greek manuscripts is very important to our understanding of exactly what he is saying. The English loses the real force:

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed"

In the first use, for Adam, we have the simple form, "ἠπατήθη". However, in the oldest Greek manuscripts, we have the compound "ἐξαπατηθεῖσα", for Eve, and not, "ἀπατηθεῖσα". This change is of a later date.

Adam was "simply deceived", but for Eve we have the stronger word, with the meaning, "thoroughly deceived".

Eve was directly deceived by the devil, but Adam, by Eve, as the Lord says in 3:17:

"Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, `You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life"

Eve's deception was directly by the devil, while Adam's was indirectly through Eve.

This is Paul's argument here.

To say Adam sinned and that after him men also sin means their nature was the same as Adam’s
They transgress the law of God.
And whether they are deceived or not, it is THEY who transgress the law.
To say Adam transgressed the law by having a different nature than men after him is completely and totally FALSE.