Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

Hi FreeGrace, It has always been Satan's purpose to confuse and to call God a liar from the very beginning. From the Garden of Eden he took God's word and made Eve to question what God had told her in simple words about the Tree in the midst of the garden, and even made God out to be a liar, and that man should scrutinize the word of God. (Gen. 2:15-18) (Gen. 3:1-6).

If you believe God, there is no need to try to get an understanding from a Doctrine that does not glorify God and bring peace to your heart in mercy and grace. We are sinners all and we all need the Lord, and the simplicity of our salvation is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:1-4). All of Paul's Epistles either start or end with peace and joy in Christ.....not confusion and impatience.

Amen.

 

[smaller]

Finally. Resolution of your position. And I've already noted the same.

I don't recall that happening but whatever.

The point of observation is we all come before God in Christ from a factual position of weakness. That weakness is the "evil present" within us. This internal reality was Divinely Purposefully put "in man."

So when we speak of "eternal security" it is good to define that as not extending to the weakness we are bound in the flesh to, and even to understand that God maintains an "adversarial relationship" as well as an "eternally secure" relationship.

Believers have eternal life. Fallen angels face the lake of fire.

btw, the comment about the "same pair of shoes" is immaterial and wrong. Paul was not demon possessed.

I said nothing of "hollywood style" possession. Paul is clear how evil/sin operated in his own mind, by the insertion of lust thoughts, Romans 7:7-13, which "thoughts" are "defiling" per Jesus in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28.

In the flesh we "all" stand, defiled, period. It has nothing to do with "possession" but the evil influences upon the mind/heart which point directly to the "spirit of disobedience" reacting adversely, internally to Gods Words. This internal activity can not be stopped by any believer because it is, as Paul stated, "no more I" doing it. This fact also wipes out the freewill premise because the will of "no more I" does function and does what it does, regardless. Romans 7:15 & 18. We walk with this contrariness to the Spirit in our flesh. Gal. 5:17. The results are obvious "in the church." Divisions, strife, endless debates, massive amounts of phony claims, on and on it goes.

It is impossible for any demon, Satan or otherwise, to indwell any believer.

Common fallacy. Paul shows otherwise by his own statements of what is in his own flesh, which activity is from and courtesy of the 'spirit of disobedience' which pits "the flesh and what is "in it" against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 12:7.

When this activity of the flesh gets out of hand, THEN a believer is taken in the snare of the devil by the will of the devil. And they will be clueless about the adversary because they are not paying attentions to what is going on within their own flesh. 2 Tim. 2:26.

The reason is simple: believers are indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.

Why would anyone think that the devil could dwell where God Himself dwells??

Uh, because the flesh is obviously defiled. Phil. 3:21, Gal. 5:17.

We hold the treasure of the Holy Spirit in a faulted and defiled flesh/clay vessel, specifically put into the positions of weakness, dishonor and corruption. 1 Cor. 15:42-47

The only issue regarding eternal life is in relation to human beings. No other kind of creature.

There is no such animal in scriptures as an "individual." There is the person, and there is the spirit of disobedience. Two completely different parties.

When the Galatians blindly tried to "earn their way" to heaven, Paul reminded them that in his own flesh were temptations, to remind them of the futility of trying to make the flesh comply with the law, because it is basically an impossibility. Temptations prove the "illegal/evil" nature of the flesh, which is "spiritual disobedience" internally, and that can't and won't change for anyone. Put the "spirit of disobedience" under the law or any Word of God for that matter, and it reacts adversely, internally, automatically, every time.

Gal. 3:
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The answer is obviously no. What's important to consider is "WHY" is this always true? Why can't the flesh do it's lawful duties? Because it, the flesh, is subservient to 'the spirit of disobedience.'

 

[smaller]

As far as I can tell?.............We are indwelt by demons and satan and we are warring with them/him as THEY are our flesh.

Instead of the body,soul and spirit of a SAVED man as tricotomus . He believes our flesh is a literal demon.........that's how I see it.

The tempter tempts. This is not some kind of "new revelation" to any believer. What's odd is that most know temptation is internal, yet they can't figure out the "location" of the tempter.

Jesus tells us where this bad actor functions. In the heart of MAN.

Mark 4:15.

Not rocket science.

 

[smaller]

Yes.

Satan dwells in our flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Sin is Satan.
Satan is sin. 1 John 3:8

The "parties" involved in Christians are Satan and the person themself.

No matter what sin the Christians does, he will not be held accountable for it because it is Satan doing the sinning.

For the Christian or unbeliever the condition is the same, Satan dwells in our flesh.

All scripture s viewed through this "understanding"

JLB

I'll speak for myself, thank you. No man makes the sin dwelling in their flesh or the evil present with them "obedient" or "faithful" or "in compliance" or "legally obedient" or whatever false claim tries to attach itself to dodge the reality of "evil present" with us in order to ignore that "internal function" IN MAN's flesh. Romans 7:17-21. NOR are these workings "under Grace." Nor will those workings receive "Mercy." God is against these workings in the flesh, CONDEMNS evil present, indwelling sin, all it's works and all it's ways, and will remain so, period. Romans 8:3.

The instant we claim we do not have sin, we are deceived and NOT in truth. 1 John 1:8. When anyone says or claims they do not have "evil present" with them, they are pawns of same because it's not true or truthful to scriptural disclosures. Even unbelievers know they have evil present in their own conscience.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

A TRUE HEART tells the TRUTH.

Simple lessons of Gods Reality.

 

[smaller]

Quite a misunderstanding then. First, Paul was never demon possessed. He misunderstands the figure of speech "thorn in the flesh".

And I reject "false characterizations" of my posts. I've NEVER stated such. It's a ridiculous imposition and a false claim coming only from you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't recall that happening but whatever.

The point of observation is we all come before God in Christ from a factual position of weakness.

Again, agreed.

That weakness is the "evil present" within us. This internal reality was Divinely Purposefully put "in man."

Uh, no. Where did that come from?

So when we speak of "eternal security" it is good to define that as not extending to the weakness we are bound in the flesh to, and even to understand that God maintains an "adversarial relationship" as well as an "eternally secure" relationship.

Why haven't you understood that I have ALREADY agreed that our sinful nature, nor any "adversarial relationship" can be saved. So, there is NO ISSUE regarding eternal security.

I said nothing of "hollywood style" possession.

And I never mentioned such possession.

Paul is clear how evil/sin operated in his own mind, by the insertion of lust thoughts, Romans 7:7-13, which "thoughts" are "defiling" per Jesus in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28.

I'm not going to dig through all these verses, just to refute each and every one that you think supports your claim that lust thoughts are inserted.

This is what James said about our sin:
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
James 1

We are tempted, NOT by "insertion of lust thought", but by "our own lust".

Jer 17:9 - “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Mark 7:15,20-23
15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

In the flesh we "all" stand, defiled, period.

Not the born again believer, who is a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17. We are justified.

It has nothing to do with "possession" but the evil influences upon the mind/heart which point directly to the "spirit of disobedience" reacting adversely, internally to Gods Words. This internal activity can not be stopped by any believer because it is, as Paul stated, "no more I" doing it. This fact also wipes out the freewill premise because the will of "no more I" does function and does what it does, regardless. Romans 7:15 & 18. We walk with this contrariness to the Spirit in our flesh. Gal. 5:17. The results are obvious "in the church." Divisions, strife, endless debates, massive amounts of phony claims, on and on it goes.

I believe this is just way confused.

There is no such animal in scriptures as an "individual." There is the person, and there is the spirit of disobedience. Two completely different parties.

So, who is this "spirit of disobedience"? Paul tells us here:

Eph 2:2 - in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

When the Galatians blindly tried to "earn their way" to heaven, Paul reminded them that in his own flesh were temptations, to remind them of the futility of trying to make the flesh comply with the law, because it is basically an impossibility. Temptations prove the "illegal/evil" nature of the flesh, which is "spiritual disobedience" internally, and that can't and won't change for anyone. Put the "spirit of disobedience" under the law or any Word of God for that matter, and it reacts adversely, internally, automatically, every time.

And none of this relates to eternal security.

Gal. 3:
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The answer is obviously no. What's important to consider is "WHY" is this always true? Why can't the flesh do it's lawful duties? Because it, the flesh, is subservient to 'the spirit of disobedience.'

Yes, and that comes from within the heart. See above.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
As far as I can tell?.............We are indwelt by demons and satan and we are warring with them/him as THEY are our flesh.

Instead of the body,soul and spirit of a SAVED man as tricotomus . He believes our flesh is a literal demon.........that's how I see it.

The tempter tempts. This is not some kind of "new revelation" to any believer. What's odd is that most know temptation is internal, yet they can't figure out the "location" of the tempter.

Jesus tells us where this bad actor functions. In the heart of MAN.

Mark 4:15.
Not rocket science.

Do you not see that others are as confused by your posts as I have been. You have been unable to clarify your position.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Yes.

Satan dwells in our flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Sin is Satan.
Satan is sin. 1 John 3:8

The "parties" involved in Christians are Satan and the person themself.

No matter what sin the Christians does, he will not be held accountable for it because it is Satan doing the sinning.

For the Christian or unbeliever the condition is the same, Satan dwells in our flesh.

All scripture s viewed through this "understanding"

I'll speak for myself, thank you. No man makes the sin dwelling in their flesh or the evil present with them "obedient" or "faithful" or "in compliance" or "legally obedient" or whatever false claim tries to attach itself to dodge the reality of "evil present" with us in order to ignore that "internal function" IN MAN's flesh. Romans 7:17-21. NOR are these workings "under Grace." Nor will those workings receive "Mercy." God is against these workings in the flesh, CONDEMNS evil present, indwelling sin, all it's works and all it's ways, and will remain so, period. Romans 8:3.

The instant we claim we do not have sin, we are deceived and NOT in truth. 1 John 1:8. When anyone says or claims they do not have "evil present" with them, they are pawns of same because it's not true or truthful to scriptural disclosures. Even unbelievers know they have evil present in their own conscience.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

A TRUE HEART tells the TRUTH.

Simple lessons of Gods Reality.

Another example of one who has misunderstood your posts.

That's 3 that have indicated so.

But, the only real problem is your trying to connect this "evil present" within believers with eternal security.

There is no reason at all to consider that there is any link to this "evil present" in us with any concept of eternal security. It has no bearing whatsoever.

And, so far, you've not been able to explain how it is in your view.

 

[smaller]

You have been unable to clarify your position.

Claim what you will. The evil present in no flesh, the indwelling sin in no flesh will or can be justifed. And these workings ARE in the flesh AND are of "the spirit" of disobedience, who is Satan. Eph. 2:2.

Believers are turned to a position of dominion, but the battle/war rages on because of this adverse component that is "NO MORE I" just as Paul noted. Therefore it's pointless to overlook "no more I" in the equations of understandings. Romans 7:17-21.

If people don't see it, they don't see it. Nothing I can do about that when it's there to read.

 

[ezra]

.
Hi Brother Cygnus, I have no idea as to your wanting forty-three posts but the word "Salvation" has different contexts.
If you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved.
Once born of God we have eternal life and are delivered from the penalty of sin forever.
There remains our spiritual walk as we learn to overcome the habit and dominion of sin; working out our salvation.
Then comes the glorious day when we are delivered from the very presence of sin in Jesus' presence.

What can we lose in our quest for Christ's best for our lives? As to the ongoing judgment seat of Christ, can we move from one state of our salvation by repentance to a better place in the kingdom of heaven? I'm not sure of your meaning and await your direction.
2 Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

its the same old argument can you be saved then lost again not saved.it never ends

 

[FreeGrace]

Claim what you will. The evil present in no flesh, the indwelling sin in no flesh will or can be justifed.

Why do you keep repeating this as if only you believe it?? No one on this thread has ever tried to justify it.

And these workings ARE in the flesh AND are of "the spirit" of disobedience, who is Satan. Eph. 2:2.

And are not part of eternal security.

Believers are turned to a position of dominion, but the battle/war rages on because of this adverse component that is "NO MORE I" just as Paul noted. Therefore it's pointless to overlook "no more I" in the equations of understandings. Romans 7:17-21.

When these so-called "equations" are explained clearly, I'll respond.

If people don't see it, they don't see it. Nothing I can do about that when it's there to read.

Why keep acting as if you're the only one who understands this?

 

[smaller]

Why do you keep repeating this as if only you believe it?? No one on this thread has ever tried to justify it.


And are not part of eternal security.


When these so-called "equations" are explained clearly, I'll respond.


Why keep acting as if you're the only one who understands this?

We can be quite assured that "No more I that does it" does NOT have eternal security. Romans 7:17-21

 

[FreeGrace]

We can be quite assured that "No more I that does it" does NOT have eternal security. Romans 7:17-21

There is no one on this thread who argues otherwise.

And your "no more I" isn't part of eternal security, never has been, and never should have been brought up in the discussion of eternal security.

Why you did will remain a mystery, I guess.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Ephesians 6:12 " For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickness in high places.
Ephesians 6:13 " Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

 

[smaller]

There is no one on this thread who argues otherwise.

You're position has been ignoring the "no more I" quotient in these conversations claiming not seeing, not understanding, and not getting it.

And your "no more I" isn't part of eternal security, never has been, and never should have been brought up in the discussion of eternal security.

So says you. I've observed many times that positionally, believers are not just believers presently, as we view them or as we view ourselves presently. There is the believer, who "technically" speaking died per Romans 6:4, Romans 7:11, Col. 2:12, Col. 3:3

and

there is "no more I" who is assuredly heading to the Lake of Fire.

Why you did will remain a mystery, I guess.

Not looking at the scriptural facts are not going to change the scriptural facts.

Your "position" might see the benefit of superiority to understand that others who are not likewise minded about "eternal security" are quite vainly overlooking "NO MORE I" in the equations, and instead are again quite vainly trying to make "NO MORE I" "saved," "legally compliant," a "non-sinner," "under Grace," "a recipient of Mercy," "forgiven," "in faith" and on and on this nonsense goes. None of this happened or can happen. There is in fact wrath, judgment, eternal damnation to be inserted into these conversations for EVERY believer on that side of the ledgers for "NO MORE I."

I might observe that in all of these frictions between believers, that "NO MORE I" is assuredly involved. Romans 7:17 & 20.

 

[JLB]

You're position has been ignoring the "no more I" quotient in these conversations claiming not seeing, not understanding, and not getting it.


So says you. I've observed many times that positionally, believers are not just believers presently, as we view them or as we view ourselves presently. There is the believer, who "technically" speaking died per Romans 6:4, Romans 7:11, Col. 2:12, Col. 3:3

and

there is "no more I" who is assuredly heading to the Lake of Fire.


Not looking at the scriptural facts are not going to change the scriptural facts.

Your "position" might see the benefit of superiority to understand that others who are not likewise minded about "eternal security" are quite vainly overlooking "NO MORE I" in the equations, and instead are again quite vainly trying to make "NO MORE I" "saved," "legally compliant," a "non-sinner," "under Grace," "a recipient of Mercy," "forgiven," "in faith" and on and on this nonsense goes. None of this happened or can happen. There is in fact wrath, judgment, eternal damnation to be inserted into these conversations for EVERY believer on that side of the ledgers for "NO MORE I."

I might observe that in all of these frictions between believers, that "NO MORE I" is assuredly involved. Romans 7:17 & 20.

The foundation we are to build our lives upon, is Christ, and His words, sayings, teaching, doctrine, of which go and sin no more should be the cornerstone.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19


I bolded with red, the many places that show us it is the choice of THOSE, who name the name of Christ, to exercise dominion, to put to death, to crucify, to overcome, the sin within our flesh, or become a slave to sin, to do what it wants... rather than what He wants.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• Those who do not walk according the flesh, are not under condemnation.
• Those who walk according to the flesh, are under condemnation.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• Those who set the minds on the things of the flesh, are those who walk after the flesh.
• Those who set their minds on the things of the Spirit, are those who walk according to the Spirit.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• Those who live according to the flesh will die. [Eternal Death]
• Those who, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh, will live. [Eternal Life]

This contrast of those Christians, who will receive eternal life, and those who will receive eternal death, is made throughout the NT, in his letters to those churches he was responsible for, by Paul.


who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

It is by the deeds, each Christian will be judged by Him, on the Day of Judgement. Those who lives produce the fruit of holiness, because they chose to become slaves of God, and righteousness, will in the end receive eternal life.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16-23


In each of these cases, it is the choice of the believer empowered by the Spirit, to overthrow, to put to death, to crucify, to set their minds on the things of the Spirit, to walk according to the Spirit, and obey the righteous Life within, so that they will receive in the end, eternal life.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5:16-24

Those who walk in the flesh, are a slave to sin and do not do what the wish, being sin's slave.

Paul made this truth abundantly clear for all of us to understand in his letter to the Romans.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

• Those who present themselves as a slave to sin, will become sin's slave, so that you are not doing what you want, but what the sin within your flesh wants to do.

• Those who present themselves as a slave to God, to obey Him, will become a slave to obedience and of His righteousness, producing fruit unto holiness.

The choice is clear:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23



JLB

 

[JLB]

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 1 Timothy 6:12

 

[smaller]

The foundation we are to build our lives upon, is Christ, and His words, sayings, teaching, doctrine, of which go and sin no more should be the cornerstone.

I would suggest to your position that it is and will remain quite entirely impossible to make 'NO MORE I,' sinless. OR to make "evil present" with Paul go away from the scriptures. Evil present is that. Present.

For purposes of finding harmony in completely divergent statements of the N.T. understanding "NO MORE I" is critical. Otherwise we'll never understand the scriptural harmony that exists in these two apparent conflicting statements (among others that ARE harmonized in understanding "NO MORE I.") Romans 7:17-21

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Without seeing "NO MORE I" in these equations it makes no sense. Paul can not simultaneously claim "sin not" and claim also being the chief of sinners.

What we should be able to see is this, just as Paul saw himself.

[Paul and "NO MORE I."] Then it makes Perfect Sense.

Simple principle. Very hard to see though, because of "NO MORE I" being also involved.

The Gospel does present to us to divide from evil, it's works and it's ways. It does not present that we don't have it present in the flesh to deal with. Nor are we presented that we can make "the flesh" sinless, when in fact "the flesh" is and will remain factually "against" and "contrary to" the Spirit. This state doesn't change for anyone. Gal. 5:17.

Even more, when we fall into that mind trap, of thinking we made our flesh sinless and evil is not present with us, we have in fact been "deceived" by these workings in the flesh. 1 John 1:8.

No one makes themselves sinless. We lay on a scriptural bed called "unmerited" favor precisely because of these states of the flesh. It can't be "merited." If it is "self" merited, then it is no longer The Gospel. Romans 4:4 &11:6, Gal. 2:21, Eph. 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9.

Divine Mercy and Grace in Christ is held forth to believers in faith. This Grace and Mercy does not extend to "NO MORE I."

If we are "ministers" of His Grace, then that Grace is laid on the foundation of being unmeritable, which is proven by indwelling sin, and evil present with us. Paul goes to great and detailed lengths to prove this "unmerited" foundation.

Those who do not stand on Grace, do not recognize their own foundation is entirely insufficient to hold them. I might even see that the wrath of God is put within such, because they seek out wrath upon other believers in numerous crafty ways. This kind of effort is readily apparent in those who are this way:

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Those who work wrath are commonly known as 'legalists." If they don't use the law to 'do this' they come up with other angles, such as not belonging to certain sects, peddling doubts, selling rituals and formula's. All kinds of things that supposedly have to be deployed to have and maintain "correct status" or else, WRATH.

Anyone who makes themselves sinless, even on a temporary basis, is certainly welcome to "prove it." I don't see such claims legitimately scripturally available.

There's a lot of hoo haa about continuing in sin, but the reality is NOBODY ceases being a sinner because sin dwells in the flesh, and evil IS present with us. This is GOSPEL. Romans 7:17-21.

And it is on this bed of need, that unmerited Grace is made. We have Gods Mercy, because of this state of NEED of same.

Were we sinless, there is no longer any need of His Mercy. And this simply is not going to happen. We are 'born' in need and will die in need.

 

[JLB]

I would suggest to your position that it is and will remain quite entirely impossible to make 'NO MORE I,' sinless. OR to make "evil present" with Paul go away from the scriptures. Evil present is that. Present.

Paul doesn't say make it "go away", those are your words.

• Paul says we are to crucify the flesh, and deny it from gratifying it's sinful desires. Galatians 5:24
• Paul says we are to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Romans 8:13
• Paul says we are not to present our members as instruments of sin. Romans 6:16

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:17-25

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

The answer Paul gives in the next verse's is to walk according to the Spirit, in the inward man, and not according to the flesh.

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The Choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the flesh.

• that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

The way we walk in righteousness, is to walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh

• For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5

The choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.


What you are falsely teaching God's children is they don't have a choice, to walk according to the Spirit, or walk according to the flesh, but rather, you are teaching them that they have no power over the sin that is presently dwelling in their flesh, and that they just can't help sinning, and living sinful lives, because "evil is present with them", and they are defeated to do only what the sin whats to do.


This is a lie from the pit of hell.


The choice remains for all Christians, to either walk according to the Spirit, or walk according to the flesh, in which the sin that dwells within our flesh, will eventually become our master, and we as it's slave if we do.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Only those who choose to become a slave to sin, in which you have given sin to be master over your life instead of Jesus Christ, are those who "do not do the things that you wish".

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

Those who are [to be] Christ's have crucified the flesh.

Crucified the the flesh!

By the Spirit these have learned to put to death, the deeds of the flesh, so that they may live.

The choice is yours:

• Become a slave to sin.

or

• Become a slave to God.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• • Those who are a slave to sin, and obey it's lust's, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul doesn't say make it "go away"

Indeed, he most assuredly doesn't.

Some believers forget that these should not be picked up or promoted:

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Others go after these with both fists.