Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

You're position has been ignoring the "no more I" quotient in these conversations claiming not seeing, not understanding, and not getting it.

So says you. I've observed many times that positionally, believers are not just believers presently, as we view them or as we view ourselves presently. There is the believer, who "technically" speaking died per Romans 6:4, Romans 7:11, Col. 2:12, Col. 3:3

and

there is "no more I" who is assuredly heading to the Lake of Fire.

Not looking at the scriptural facts are not going to change the scriptural facts.

Your "position" might see the benefit of superiority to understand that others who are not likewise minded about "eternal security" are quite vainly overlooking "NO MORE I" in the equations, and instead are again quite vainly trying to make "NO MORE I" "saved," "legally compliant," a "non-sinner," "under Grace," "a recipient of Mercy," "forgiven," "in faith" and on and on this nonsense goes. None of this happened or can happen. There is in fact wrath, judgment, eternal damnation to be inserted into these conversations for EVERY believer on that side of the ledgers for "NO MORE I."

I might observe that in all of these frictions between believers, that "NO MORE I" is assuredly involved. Romans 7:17 & 20.

In all your posts, there has not ever been any evidence from Scripture that this "no more I" has any relevance to eternal security.

You've not shown how it does either. Care to explain?

 

[smaller]

In all your posts, there has not ever been any evidence from Scripture that this "no more I" has any relevance to eternal security.

You've not shown how it does either. Care to explain?

There is warring internally. War demands an enemy.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is warring internally. War demands an enemy.

None of this warring has any effect on eternal security of the believer.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Of course there is warring. Paul was a bit more specific here:
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. Gal 5:17

 

[JLB]

Indeed, he most assuredly doesn't.

Some believers forget that these should not be picked up or promoted:

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Others go after these with both fists.

Both fist's indeed, not as one beating the air, but taking responsibility over my own body, to bring it under subjection.

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

The answer Paul gives is to walk according to the Spirit, according to the inward man, and not according to the flesh.

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The Choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the flesh.

• that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

The way we walk in righteousness, is to walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh

• For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5

The choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.


JLB

 

[smaller]

None of this warring has any effect on eternal security of the believer.

Look, I appreciate your sight. We might realize however that the scriptures do not revolve around a "one trick pony."

There are many constructs of thesis and antithesis therein. Every Word of God is beyond value. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Of course there is warring.

Indeed. The exercises of this present world have many Divine Purposes, in judgments.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

It is again, somewhat vain to focus on only one aspect of the statement when the entire statement is there to observe and apply, personally. Especially when "warring" is perceived. Saying "no, no only look at ONE aspect" makes little sense.

Paul was a bit more specific here:
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. Gal 5:17

Very true. He was even more specific to pinpoint the 'enemies' as adverse/disobedient spirits operating in the flesh, thereby pinpointing the presence of evil, with us. Romans 7:21.

I'd love to just not see that, but evil present is unfortunately the present internal reality of every person. And this "internal reality" is also the cause of all divisions and disputes, of all evil acts in the world, of all suffering, etc etc.

We are in fact "commanded" to overcome it. Romans 12:21. I might even consider cries to ignore it is not a Godly dictate whatsoever. We "need" to understand "eternal security" precisely to engage in those battles with evil, lest we ourselves are overcome of evil.

Evil sets many traps. Lies and hypocrisy are a couple places to avoid like the plague. It's one of the first dictates that Jesus builds disciples on.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

There are many reasons to listen to Jesus' every Word, and apply same. Not just the stuff we like.

We can observe, almost instantly, who does not care to hear the fact of "evil's presence" with them. Because same have already fallen into "hypocrisy." And the Gospel offends them:

Mark 4:
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

What offense does Jesus speak of here? It is precisely pinpointing "evil's presence" as internal. The "evil present" in the pharisees took offense at this disclosure:

Matthew 15:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

There are reasons to "pay" attention. IF we are offended, well, that's how battles with evil's presence goes, to the way of loss for such.

The very ROOT of Grace is based on our NEED, and that need is predicated because of the presence of EVIL in everyone.

You can say "it makes no difference." I'd say God Himself put this world and all it's inhabitants precisely INTO evil in order to demonstrate not only His Superiority over all things, but to also show MERCY to all who come to Him by/through His Son.

But the instant we lose this "root of reality" we fall into disrepair.

Believers who don't accept "eternal security" understand that "no evil" is allowed. What they don't understand is they can't "remove" it's presence in the flesh. And, on the other side of the coin, some postures claim "it doesn't matter."

Yes, it does matter, or the Words wouldn't be there.

 

[smaller]

Both fist's indeed, not as one beating the air, but taking responsibility over my own body, to bring it under subjection.

At least you understand there is a battle. When we claim the vile body, Phil. 3:21, which is factually opposed to the Spirit, Gal. 5:17 ISN'T vile, with evil present and indwelling sin, Romans 7:17-21, and go about to make it something OTHER than what it "really" is, it is just another deception of the flesh, and the evil therein.

Tis what it is. It ain't changing other than into dust at some point.

We are subjected quite PRECISELY to evil, that we would come to know Gods Mercy, because of our NEED that we have in this "placement" with warring internal evil in the flesh. Romans 7:23.

But some believers turn their battles to others, seeking to eternally off them, when they should turn that sight internally, upon their own evil present. And again, in doing that, the presence of evil has deceived them, directing others to be eternally destroyed for the SAME PROBLEMS that our own flesh has. Romans 7:21.

The short story is that believers who claim they have no evil present with them, as Paul DID, have issues. And those who claim "it's obedient" are climbing a wall that can not be scaled. Evil present is not "changed" into something other than what it is. It does not become "good" or "obedient." The presence of evil is meant to drive us ever further into His Grace and Mercy in Christ.

It also eliminates all blowhards in the church, because everyone has equal ground in this regard.

Those who respect "personages" have no regard for what the flesh of any man contains, and instead 'respect' what God does not.

Jude 1:16
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

God respects the flesh of NO MAN.

 

[JLB]

At least you understand there is a battle. When we claim the vile body, Phil. 3:21, which is factually opposed to the Spirit, Gal. 5:17 ISN'T vile, with evil present and indwelling sin, Romans 7:17-21, and go about to make it something OTHER than what it "really" is, it is just another deception of the flesh, and the evil therein.

Do you understand the choice?

You don't seem to, you keep talking about how the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.

We all know that the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, that's why we are told to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.

The choice for the believer is to walk according to the Spirit, or walk according to the flesh.

What choice will you make?

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

The answer Paul gives is to walk according to the Spirit, according to the inward man, and not according to the flesh.

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The Choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the flesh.

• that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

The way we walk in righteousness, is to walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh

• For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5

The choice is for the believer to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.


You will never get around the fact that we have a choice to make.


Those who overcome, will not be blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 3:5

 

[smaller]

Do you understand the choice?

Choice does not eliminate the presence of evil or indwelling sin in the flesh. Romans 7:17-21.

Paul found his own choices to be quite entirely of NO EFFECT with regards to the operations of sin, because it is quite precisely as he termed it, "NO MORE I" that does/do it.

Paul takes us through the stages, precisely, of how indwelling sin in the flesh operates, in Romans 7, and in other places. The first barrage is 'evil thoughts' which he shows in Romans 7:7-13. This 'course' can not change. Indwelling sin reacts precisely in that way, internally. Jesus taught the same facts in:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

These facts of Paul in Romans 7 and what Jesus shows above change for NO MAN.

You don't seem to, you keep talking about how the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.

Just pointing to the obvious. I'd also point to the vain futility of making claims to the contrary of these factual disclosures.

We all know that the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, that's why we are told to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.

Walking against our own evil present does not mean it's elimination from the equations, nor does choice make it "go away." The above are fixed conditions of the flesh and of evil's presence.

All legalists try to walk down a path that is in denial of the obvious. No, the evil present and indwelling sin in any flesh does not and can not "walk" in the Spirit. It walks "contrary and against" same.

When we walk in truth, with Truth, we understand that there is a difference and that difference always remains within the flesh. Claiming otherwise just brings a believer into hypocrisy.

Paul was very firm on this matter, about "are we better" than other sinners. The answer is NO. Jesus spoke the same in Luke 18 about the "religiously deluded man" who thought he was "not like the other sinners." Guess what? He wasn't just different, he was WORSE because he was A LIAR and a hypocrite.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

God has provided everyone equal defiled ground. And this is done quite precisely to show us our need of His Mercy and Grace in Christ.

We never remove that NEED and the basis for that need.

 

[JLB]

Choice does not eliminate the presence of evil or indwelling sin in the flesh. Romans 7:17-21.

Paul found his own choices to be quite entirely of NO EFFECT with regards to the operations of sin, because it is quite precisely as he termed it, "NO MORE I" that does/do it.

Yes, sin will lead you if you submit to it.

The Spirit will lead you if you submit to Him.

It is up to each believer to make the choice to:

• Walk according to the flesh, or walk according to the Spirit.
• To become a slave to sin, or become a slave to God and His righteousness.

That's why Paul learned, just like we have to learn, to:

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

If you don't bring your body under subjection, then you will walk according to the flesh, and fulfill it's lustful desires, and thus be it's slave.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

...to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18


you were slaves of sin... yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.


And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


The choice is clear:

Become a slave to sin, in which it is no longer I, who sins but the sin as a master over your life.

or

Become a slave of righteousness, in which you are set free from sin being your master.


The choice is yours.



JLB

 

[JLB]

These facts of Paul in Romans 7 and what Jesus shows above change for NO MAN.

Some of The Corinthians chose to change.

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18


...having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

The choice is yours.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The choice is yours.
JLB

No choice makes the flesh anything other than what it really is. With indwelling sin and evil present. We can throw choice at the equations all day long and it won't be anything other at the end of the day. Nor did Paul claim that any choice would change those facts.

We have a fixed state of the flesh. It is precisely bound with indwelling sin and evil present with us. Romans 7:17-21. Even further, in 1 Cor. 15:42-49 Paul takes the flesh down even further on the scale, showing it to be in "dishonor, corruption and weakness." The flesh of course does not care to hear these truths. And will instead, always claim otherwise, and contrary to the disclosures of the Spirit, as it is forced to do. Gal. 5:17.

These factual states are meant precisely for us to see our need of His Love, Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace. And believers are meant to war against it, and overcome this evil present, with good.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[JLB]

No choice makes the flesh anything other than what it really is. With indwelling sin and evil present. We can throw choice at the equations all day long and it won't be anything other at the end of the day. Nor did Paul claim that any choice would change those facts.

Nothing will remove the sin within our flesh, that not the issue.

The issue is being a slave to sin, or becoming a slave to righteousness.

Being set free from sin, or being it's slave.


Do you believe you have a choice to either be a slave to sin, or a slave to God and His righteousness?



JLB

 

[JLB]

These factual states are meant precisely for us to see our need of His Love, Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace. And believers are meant to war against it, and overcome this evil present, with good.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This is a reference to Satan, the dragon, as defined by "him" is this verse.

The law of sin in our flesh, is not Satan.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

Each person has a choice to obey the sin in our flesh, or the Spirit within us.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Obey the Spirit.
or
Obey the sin within your flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



JLB

 

[smaller]

Nothing will remove the sin within our flesh, that not the issue.

The issue is being a slave to sin, or becoming a slave to righteousness.

Being set free from sin, or being it's slave.


Do you believe you have a choice to either be a slave to sin, or a slave to God and His righteousness?

JLB

I will not be made a slave of that working by making claims contrary to Word disclosures of fact. Not interested. I know my need of God in Christ precisely because of the 'state of the flesh.' I'll speak contrary to it, as the Spirit demands to be spoken, and not seek to cover it up or justify it because that's NOT going to happen. Gal. 5:17.

Sin in the flesh remains under Gods condemnation. End of story. Romans 8:3.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I hear the red very clearly.

Paul showed the Galatians the futility of this:

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The answer is NO.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[ezrider]

Obey the Spirit.
or
Obey the sin within your flesh.

If someone continues to seek out sin so they can repent of it, are they obeying the Spirit or are they obeying sin in the flesh?

If someone continues to point out the sins of others so that they might repent, are they obeying the Spirit or are they still obeying sin in the flesh?

 

[JLB]

I will not be made a slave of that working by making claims contrary to Word disclosures of fact. Not interested.

Makes no sense.




The choice is clear:

Become a slave to sin, in which it is no longer I, who sins but the sin as a master over your life.
or
Become a slave of righteousness, in which you are set free from sin being your master
and are living your life in obedience to Jesus Christ as your Master.


The choice is yours.

"smaller, post: 1240183, member: 42"]Sin in the flesh remains under Gods condemnation. End of story. Romans 8:3.

Those who walk in the flesh are under God's condemnation.

End of story.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

[QUOTE="smaller, post: 1240183, member: 42"]John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I hear the red very clearly.

Paul showed the Galatians the futility of this:

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The answer is NO.[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why Paul warned us not to walk according to the flesh, with it's sinful desires.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

The choice is your's to make:

Walk according to the Spirit, and be led by the Spirit.
or
Walk according to the flesh, and become a slave to the sin that dwells in your flesh.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24



JLB

 

[JLB]

If someone continues to seek out sin so they can repent of it, are they obeying the Spirit or are they obeying sin in the flesh?

Those who seek out God, and humble themselves before Him, and confess their sins, and learn how to bring the body into subjection, and by the Spirit put to death the desires and deeds of the flesh, will find victory.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Look, I appreciate your sight. We might realize however that the scriptures do not revolve around a "one trick pony."

All these euphemistic terms don't help the discussion one bit. I have no idea what your point is. Please cease with these euphemisms and just speak plainly.

It is again, somewhat vain to focus on only one aspect of the statement when the entire statement is there to observe and apply, personally. Especially when "warring" is perceived. Saying "no, no only look at ONE aspect" makes little sense.

Please explain what this "statement" is that you're referring to. Only then can I respond to your comment.

He was even more specific to pinpoint the 'enemies' as adverse/disobedient spirits operating in the flesh, thereby pinpointing the presence of evil, with us. Romans 7:21.

How does any of this apply to eternal security?

I'd love to just not see that, but evil present is unfortunately the present internal reality of every person. And this "internal reality" is also the cause of all divisions and disputes, of all evil acts in the world, of all suffering, etc etc.

How does any of this apply to eternal security?

We are in fact "commanded" to overcome it. Romans 12:21. I might even consider cries to ignore it is not a Godly dictate whatsoever. We "need" to understand "eternal security" precisely to engage in those battles with evil, lest we ourselves are overcome of evil.

OK, please explain HOW one "needs to understand eternal security", with or without the quote marks.

Evil sets many traps. Lies and hypocrisy are a couple places to avoid like the plague. It's one of the first dictates that Jesus builds disciples on.

How does any of this apply to eternal security?

You can say "it makes no difference."

Do you understand why it makes no difference?

I'd say God Himself put this world and all it's inhabitants precisely INTO evil in order to demonstrate not only His Superiority over all things, but to also show MERCY to all who come to Him by/through His Son.

The problem with your view is that God didn't "put this world INTO evil". What He created was good. He did allow evil to enter into it. Big difference, though, from what you stated.

But the instant we lose this "root of reality" we fall into disrepair.

What does this mean? Again, euphemisms don't communicate.

Believers who don't accept "eternal security" understand that "no evil" is allowed. What they don't understand is they can't "remove" it's presence in the flesh. And, on the other side of the coin, some postures claim "it doesn't matter."

How is a "posture" a person? How does evil effect one's eternal security, since that IS the issue I've been trying to discuss with you? And, after all this time, I still do not know your answer to that.

Yes, it does matter, or the Words wouldn't be there.

Then PLEASE explain it, finally.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, sin will lead you if you submit to it.

The Spirit will lead you if you submit to Him.

It is up to each believer to make the choice to:

• Walk according to the flesh, or walk according to the Spirit.
• To become a slave to sin, or become a slave to God and His righteousness.

• Could you explain specifically how a believer submits either to sin or to the Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who walk in the flesh are under God's condemnation.

Interesting. Yet, Jesus said this about those who have believed in Him:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does NOT come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The ONLY WAY one can be said to be "in Christ Jesus" is through believing in Him and being sealed with the Holy Spirit OF promise, FOR the day of redemption. Epoh 1:13

And...there are no verses about how this seal can be broken and losing our position IN Christ Jesus.