Regaining Salvation...

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is really a far out question. Where in the world did that come from? And you're STILL not explaining yourself. Just more and more ridiculous questions that have NO BEARING on eternal security."

Where then is adverse judgment of God applied in your pat one sided formula? Does it exist?

Good grief! I asked for an explanation of what this so-called "equation" and now changed to "formula"? And this is all I get? Another far out question that makes no sense.

It seems that you really do not know how to communicate.

We know it exists:

What? An equation? A formula? What?

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you hear only "eternal life?" I hear condemnation, quite clearly.

I guess what is coming through clear enough is that you don't believe in eternal life or eternal security.

How does Rom 8:3 have anything to do with eternal life? It speaks of Christ condemning sin in the flesh.

So, please explain what that mean to you.

 

[smaller]

How does any of this relate to eternal security?

Do you think the indwelling sin and evil present with Paul's flesh was "eternally secure?"

I don't. Sorry.

It was, and is, and REMAINS so today, as Paul said it was, condemned. Romans 8:3. I see no point in equating "eternal security" where it doesn't belong. They are opposing terms. Staring at one doesn't vacate the other.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'd like a clarification. Do you believe that a born again person continues to sin, regardless of frequency?

hello Free Grace, dirtfarmer here

I do not believe that a person that has received salvation continues in sin.

I do believe that it is possible for a believer to commit sins.
Galatians 6:1 " Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meeksness, considering thyself; lest thou also be tempted."

Living under or by grace is not a free pass to commit sins, but is a life of love from and for God in his service.
Galatians 5:6 " For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcisiom, but faith which worketh by love."

 

[dirtfarmer]

I am not apt to be kind to indwelling sin and evil present. Nor will I be made a liar or a hypocrite by that working, by saying I don't have these identically as Paul stated for himself. Not interested.

Paul provided us Godly and Spiritual INsight toward these matters:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We are to bear this "contrariness" toward our own flesh. Not as it's ally, but it's opposer. IF some see otherwise, then let them condone to their own perils.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Have you been renewed by the Spirit?

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Have you been renewed by the Spirit?

Yes, and the Spirit has not led me to justify and/or condone indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh. But to be contrary to it, and condemn it. I understand it's not a pleasant meal for the flesh nor will or can the flesh accept it.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes, and the Spirit has not led me to justify and/or condone indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh. But to be contrary to it, and condemn it. I understand it's not a pleasant meal for the flesh nor will or can the flesh accept it.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

hello smaller. dirtfarmer here

How have I condoned or justified "indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh"?

I believe both scriptures referenced.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller. dirtfarmer here

How have I condoned or justified "indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh"?

I believe both scriptures referenced.

Whether we judge the flesh accurately or not the conclusions of scripture aren't changing.

The flesh, regardless of "continuing" in sins, which implies that a believer is or can make themselves sinless, is simply not true.

Sin dwells in the flesh and evil is present therein, period. Romans 7:17-21 changes for no man in the flesh, not even an Apostle.

Therefore it, the flesh with these factual conditions, can not be justified in His Sight, just as scripture states. Romans 3:20.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Do those who no longer believe in Jesus Christ, still have the Son?

JLB, There is a difference between those who believe Christ (no faith) and those who believe and put their faith in Christ (born again believers) (John 12: 42-43; Luke 12:8-9; John 11:46-53).
A born again believer is sealed (kept) Has a new man in his being (a creation of God). He has begotten us again (Acts 8:37-40) The eunuch believed in Christ (trusted Christ with his soul) The religious leaders of Israel knew He was the Christ, and they should have ushered Him in, but instead, the would not receive Him (John 1:11). The Church is a mixture of tares and wheat. Many of the warnings in Scripture are to the deceived and self righteous. All born again believers are guaranteed to see the face of God (Eph. 1:11-14) A born again believer will never quit believing, how could he, he has the witness of Christ in him. But those who believed without faith, have noting to do with Christ at all. For it is by faith that we become the Sons of God. Those who believe without faith are double minded. The born again believer has assurance and fellowship.

There were 10 virgins who were expecting to meet the Lord. Five of them had faith and were filled with the Holy Spirit, ever ready to be with the Lord with constant fellowship. Five of the self righteous virgins who expected to be with the lord by their works and not faith, Void of the Holy Spirit knew not the seasons. (Matt. 24:32-35) And when they saw the Five virgins that had The Holy Spirit ascending to be with the Lord,(Matt. 24:40-41) they cried out to the five ascending virgins, please give us what you have that we many ascend with you. (Matt. 24:36-51) But the five ascending virgins had each what was given them and it could not be put in broken vessels. (Matt. 9:17)

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you think the indwelling sin and evil present with Paul's flesh was "eternally secure?"

Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body.

It was, and is, and REMAINS so today, as Paul said it was, condemned. Romans 8:3. I see no point in equating "eternal security" where it doesn't belong.

OK, apparently your whole point is that the physical body isn't saved. That has NEVER been a part of eternal security anyway.

They are opposing terms. Staring at one doesn't vacate the other.

What am I "staring" at? And how does staring "vacate" something else? Your statements continue to be perplexing, to say the least.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you think the indwelling sin and evil present with Paul's flesh was "eternally secure?"

Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body.

It was, and is, and REMAINS so today, as Paul said it was, condemned. Romans 8:3. I see no point in equating "eternal security" where it doesn't belong.

OK, apparently your whole point is that the physical body isn't saved. That has NEVER been a part of eternal security anyway.

They are opposing terms. Staring at one doesn't vacate the other.

What am I "staring" at? And how does staring "vacate" something else? Your statements continue to be perplexing, to say the least.

But, at least, it appears your view has become clear; the physical body is not part of eternal security. That's correct.

However, I seriously doubt that anyone who believes in eternal security would even consider the physical body as what is being secure.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello Free Grace, dirtfarmer here

I do not believe that a person that has received salvation continues in sin.

I do believe that it is possible for a believer to commit sins.

OK, they will continue to sin, but not continue in sin. Is that right?

Galatians 6:1 " Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meeksness, considering thyself; lest thou also be tempted."

Living under or by grace is not a free pass to commit sins, but is a life of love from and for God in his service.
Galatians 5:6 " For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcisiom, but faith which worketh by love."

Amen!

 

[OzSpen]

I said: A wheat plant with no wheat is a weed.

You answered, No.

Then you say... The parable of the wheat and the tares is that of wheat and look-alike wheat. That's why modern translations have wheat and weeds??

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

Did you understand what I said about the marijuana plants.

A male marijuana plant does not produce "fruit", but is considered a weed.

A stem with leaves, but no buds, though it's still marijuana.

Likewise the wheat and tares:

It looks the same while growing, and can only be distinguished when the wheat puts forth it fruit, and the tares does not.

That's the point I was making.

JLB

A wheat plant with no wheat is still a wheat plant, but an unproductive wheat plant.

 

[dirtfarmer]

OK, they will continue to sin, but not continue in sin. Is that right?


Amen!

hello FreeGrace. dirtfarmer here
They will be overtaken by a fault, but will not continue in sin.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Whether we judge the flesh accurately or not the conclusions of scripture aren't changing.

The flesh, regardless of "continuing" in sins, which implies that a believer is or can make themselves sinless, is simply not true.

Sin dwells in the flesh and evil is present therein, period. Romans 7:17-21 changes for no man in the flesh, not even an Apostle.

Therefore it, the flesh with these factual conditions, can not be justified in His Sight, just as scripture states. Romans 3:20.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You did not quote the qualifying phrase of Romans 3:30; "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is nothing in the flesh that is pleasing to God. Christ is the only one that the Father said "I am well pleased" with. We are not trying to justify the flesh, but we are mortifying (putting to dead) the flesh by Christ living in us.

 

[gr8grace3]

but we are mortifying (putting to dead) the flesh by Christ living in us.

There could be doctrinal BOOKS written on this subject alone.

But if we are focused on the flesh and trying to make our flesh better or trying to clean up our flesh.............we are still living in the flesh.

The Spiritual way of life or the Christian way of life is living spiritual. It has nothing to do with stopping sin or killing the flesh. Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

The majority of believers are focused on "killing the flesh" from their "good" side and are still focused on their flesh and have no clue of the unique spiritual life the Lord Jesus Christ has for each and every believer.

Jesus Christ Himself isn't worried about us "killing our flesh".......He took care of that. He is concerned about believers living the spiritual life. There is no time for the flesh(human good or sinning), if we are living the spiritual life He has prepared for us.


Are we sin focused?
Or
Are we Son focused?

 

[dirtfarmer]

There could be doctrinal BOOKS written on this subject alone.

But if we are focused on the flesh and trying to make our flesh better or trying to clean up our flesh.............we are still living in the flesh.

The Spiritual way of life or the Christian way of life is living spiritual. It has nothing to do with stopping sin or killing the flesh. Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

The majority of believers are focused on "killing the flesh" from their "good" side and are still focused on their flesh and have no clue of the unique spiritual life the Lord Jesus Christ has for each and every believer.

Jesus Christ Himself isn't worried about us "killing our flesh".......He took care of that. He is concerned about believers living the spiritual life. There is no time for the flesh(human good or sinning), if we are living the spiritual life He has prepared for us.


Are we sin focused?
Or
Are we Son focused?

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

John 3:21 Berean Study Bible: " But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out by God."

"The Just shall live by faith"

If we are truly spiritual we are Son focused.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

John 3:21 Berean Study Bible: " But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out by God."

"The Just shall live by faith"

If we are truly spiritual we are Son focused.

What is clearly seen? Whoever does what is true. It is not clearly seen that a person who does a mission trip for the poor has pure motives. Has pure, loving intentions for those who he "appears" to help.

How do we clearly see peoples intentions and motives?

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You did not quote the qualifying phrase of Romans 3:30; "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law proves everyone a sinner. There is no truthfully avoiding that conclusion.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But in the blindness that sin imposes, readers will read the above and think that from the second statement, the first is no longer true, and this is not the case.

Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

To even begin to understand the Grace (UNmerited favor) of God in Christ and His Mercy expressed in Christ, we MUST take the first conclusion quite seriously. And not claim otherwise, lest we fall into lies and hypocrisy, which is the bane of religious folk.

There is nothing in the flesh that is pleasing to God.

There are traps aplenty in the scriptures. For example, when we think it's a flesh problem, we err. It's not. Eph. 6:12 tells us we do not wrestle flesh (and blood.) But principalities, powers, wickedness etc that IS in the flesh.

Indwelling sin and evil present is not a forensic matter. Romans 7:17-21. We can't cut open the flesh and observe it. It is therefore exactly how scriptures present it, as a "spirit." And that "spirit" is disobedient in the flesh. Eph. 2:2 and 2 Cor. 4:4 show this reality of what is "in" the flesh. This enmity is of our spiritual adversary, which enmity was COMMANDED to be between man and the serpent from very early on in Genesis. The parties are in fact quite hostile and opposed to each others, WARRING constantly. Romans 7:23. Gal. 5:17 shows that this is FIXED OPPOSITION.

So, yes, we do have a war on our hands. Paul shows us that "war" is in our own flesh. It is A LAW of God Himself, that this war exists. That law is found in Gods Command that "enmity" be present between the Seed of God and the "seed" of the serpent, which is "the spirit of disobedience."

Simple lesson, hard to learn except the "hard way."

Christ is the only one that the Father said "I am well pleased" with. We are not trying to justify the flesh, but we are mortifying (putting to dead) the flesh by Christ living in us.

Anyone can claim that they put the "spirit of disobedience" to death or made same "obedient" or "under Grace" or "under Mercy" or "forgiven" etc etc etc. But that never happened. Those who claim such are quite blind to what they are dealing with in their own flesh.

The destruction of the spirit(s) of disobedience is reserved unto Christ Alone at the end of this present evil/wicked age.

In the meantime we all go round and round, literally "under" the blinding that is a reality of that working of the spirit of disobedience in the flesh.

The only path out of control is to admit the problem, see that it is not us as Gods children, and DIVIDE from that working seeing it as a 'foreign occupation.' An invader of the flesh if you please. That "invader" has been given that right by God Himself. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan is moved to "steal" or "resist" Gods Words where His Word is sown. And yes, this IS a present reality that everyone would serve themselves well with by understanding.

 

[smaller]

Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body.

The "general" issue that your posture represents is that believers NOW are only Gods children. That simply isn't the case. There is a factual WAR that transpires on earth within us, with the "spirit of disobedience."

Paul pinpoints this matter here:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Do you see the WAR? No. It is on the INSIDE.

Now, how friendly are you to our enemies when you heap Salvation and Grace and Mercy and "eternal security" where it doesn't belong?

It's just a sight of blindness in the flesh, IMPOSED by our adversary, on the part of the claimants who can not see or perceive what is "really" going on inside, which IS WAR.

When believers try to "save" the enemy, they have a TROJAN HORSE inserted into the camp.

OK, apparently your whole point is that the physical body isn't saved. That has NEVER been a part of eternal security anyway.

The flesh is where the WAR transpires. The War has adverse spiritual opponents. The warring happens to transpire IN the flesh, but the flesh itself is not the "warriors" on the other side of the equation, but the "spirit(s) of disobedience." Indwelling sin and evil present is NOT forensic. We can't "see" it scientifically. Therefore it can only be spiritually adverse in nature. God Himself has committed this "WAR" to be "in" man's flesh very early on in the scriptures by placing ENMITY between the "seed" of the serpent and the SEED of the woman, Eve. Her "seed" is mankind, and from that seed our Ultimate Warrior, God Himself first in flesh, then Risen to Eternal Glory.

But God in Christ has reserved the FINAL EXECUTION of the spirit(s) of disobedience to come at the END of the saga of this present life.

Until then, the spirit of disobedience still remains in and with the flesh of all mankind. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 ALL PINPOINT exactly "who" the ENEMY is. It is not 'man' only in the flesh. It is man and the spirit of disobedience IN the flesh, blinding, capturing, and yes, SINNING by doing so. Satan "savors" the things of men. Matt. 16:23, Luke 22:31.

Still so eager to heap upon yourself 'eternal security?' That's fine. But understand where THE LINE in the dust pile is SECURELY DRAWN. It will not and can not extend as far as you think you see, to our spiritual adversary WARRING in the flesh.

Our spiritual adversaries are under AN ETERNAL DEATH SENTENCE.

We are waiting for the 'final eradication.'

Till then, there is WAR.

Our enemies will not be spared. Not by blinded claims or otherwise.

 

[smaller]

Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body.

Your scriptural accounting remains void of the obvious. We do have spiritual adversaries that "war" in our own flesh. I'm repeating this just to see if you can recognize the fact of WAR:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

This "war" is not with the flesh, but with very real existing opponents that are, as Paul described, "NO MORE I." Romans 7:17-21. Eph. 6:11-12 shows identically WHO it is we are "warring with." It is "not us." It is "not" the flesh.

It is quite entirely foolish to grant 'eternal security' to these agents of WAR when scriptures show the opposite fate awaits them.

Such claims and positions are blind to what is going on.

Standing in warring flesh, claiming the opponents under Grace, Mercy, Love, forgiveness, obedience, faith etc etc will not and can not compute in this TIME OF WAR.

It is the time to take NO prisoners in this regard, but rather to CONDEMN them.