Regaining Salvation...

[dirtfarmer]

What is clearly seen? Whoever does what is true. It is not clearly seen that a person who does a mission trip for the poor has pure motives. Has pure, loving intentions for those who he "appears" to help.

How do we clearly see peoples intentions and motives?

hello gr8grace, dirtfarmer here

While I agree that in cases there is plenty of room for doubt. When a person is born again there is a change in that person that can be seen by their actions, the life style change.

Are missionaries for the Church age? There are many activities that church performs that are not necessarily activities of God. Does God intend for the outreach of any church to be secular? We are told in scripture that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. How can people hear without "preaching"?

Are we really called to walk up to a stranger and ask: "If you died tonight, where would you go?" Is that more for show as to how spiritual we are than concern for that person' soul? Which is the greater witness, the life that we live daily, or our asking strangers that question? I believe that it is the life that we live daily.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The law proves everyone a sinner. There is no truthfully avoiding that conclusion.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But in the blindness that sin imposes, readers will read the above and think that from the second statement, the first is no longer true, and this is not the case.

Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

To even begin to understand the Grace (UNmerited favor) of God in Christ and His Mercy expressed in Christ, we MUST take the first conclusion quite seriously. And not claim otherwise, lest we fall into lies and hypocrisy, which is the bane of religious folk.


There are traps aplenty in the scriptures. For example, when we think it's a flesh problem, we err. It's not. Eph. 6:12 tells us we do not wrestle flesh (and blood.) But principalities, powers, wickedness etc that IS in the flesh.

Indwelling sin and evil present is not a forensic matter. Romans 7:17-21. We can't cut open the flesh and observe it. It is therefore exactly how scriptures present it, as a "spirit." And that "spirit" is disobedient in the flesh. Eph. 2:2 and 2 Cor. 4:4 show this reality of what is "in" the flesh. This enmity is of our spiritual adversary, which enmity was COMMANDED to be between man and the serpent from very early on in Genesis. The parties are in fact quite hostile and opposed to each others, WARRING constantly. Romans 7:23. Gal. 5:17 shows that this is FIXED OPPOSITION.

So, yes, we do have a war on our hands. Paul shows us that "war" is in our own flesh. It is A LAW of God Himself, that this war exists. That law is found in Gods Command that "enmity" be present between the Seed of God and the "seed" of the serpent, which is "the spirit of disobedience."

Simple lesson, hard to learn except the "hard way."


Anyone can claim that they put the "spirit of disobedience" to death or made same "obedient" or "under Grace" or "under Mercy" or "forgiven" etc etc etc. But that never happened. Those who claim such are quite blind to what they are dealing with in their own flesh.

The destruction of the spirit(s) of disobedience is reserved unto Christ Alone at the end of this present evil/wicked age.

In the meantime we all go round and round, literally "under" the blinding that is a reality of that working of the spirit of disobedience in the flesh.

The only path out of control is to admit the problem, see that it is not us as Gods children, and DIVIDE from that working seeing it as a 'foreign occupation.' An invader of the flesh if you please. That "invader" has been given that right by God Himself. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan is moved to "steal" or "resist" Gods Words where His Word is sown. And yes, this IS a present reality that everyone would serve themselves well with by understanding.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Is the "spirit of disobedience" still in control of our soul? It is not we ourselves that renders the "spirit of disobedience" powerless, it is Christ in whom is our life.

Ephesians 2:2-3 states "When in times past ye walked according to the course of this world: according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Among whom we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, and of the mind; and were by natrure the children of wrath, even as others."

What you need to understand is that salvation has 3 parts.
1) we have been saved from the penalty of sin.
2) we have been saved from the power of sin
3) we shall be saved from the presence of sin when and only when we are in the presence of our savior.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Is the "spirit of disobedience" still in control of our soul?

Scripture expressly states that sin indwells our flesh and evil is present with us. Romans 7:17-21. There is little use running away from these facts. And, because of this, there is WARRING internally just as Paul explicitly states in Romans 7:23.

Those who claim they are "exempt" from this war, I might consider have merely been sidelined by the "opposition movement."

It is not we ourselves that renders the "spirit of disobedience" powerless, it is Christ in whom is our life.

I would say that is not the case. Scriptures tell us again, clearly, that the Laws of God were quite precisely meant to provoke, empower and expose sin, so that we would know the reality of the warring in our own flesh. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56 point in the opposite direction you are attempting to posture. The law is NOT the ally of sin and evil's presence in the flesh, but it's exposer AND empowerer, because IT resists Gods Laws.

This resistance remains active "in the flesh." Anyone who has ascended to their happy happy cloud has no idea what is going on. There is in fact WAR. Romans 7:23, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17, Eph. 6:11-12 and many others speak precisely to this war of oppositions.

The spirit of disobedience remains to engage and to capture us, and this is COURTESY of our adversary:

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

People of faith who have dropped their battle gear and claim they have no warring transpiring have simply been disarmed and blinded by the enemy. They sit, happy happy CLUELESS.

What you need to understand is that salvation has 3 parts.

1) we have been saved from the penalty of sin.
2) we have been saved from the power of sin
3) we shall be saved from the presence of sin when and only when we are in the presence of our savior.

And as usual, all of the above only speaks to "one side" of the equations.

NO, God in Christ does not "execute" His Warriors NOR will He condemn them.

But we can be taken captive in the flesh by numerous deceptions of the enemies. Particularly when we "disregard" them in these equations.

Paul put ZERO confidence in his flesh for very good reasons and cause. Phil. 3:3. We don't EXCUSE "evil's presence" in Gods Name, nor do we confuse it as "only ourselves" because it's NOT. It is the presence of spiritual opposition. It was not because of the flesh, but because of the presence of evil and the sin dwelling therein.

Paul KNEW the power of God from the opposite side of the equations, SEEING this "enemy" take hold in his own mind, for example in Romans 7:7-13, which is a good EXPOSE' of what happens internally when LAW meets SIN and EVIL present.

Anyone who examines their own thoughts honestly will find WARRING therein. Jesus also tells us that we, in our current state, because of "evil thoughts," stand "defiled" in the flesh.

Whether any believer cares to see it or not, this is an internal reality. NOT an "option."

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Paul quite entirely HONESTY saw his own body as "vile" because of the internal warring with indwelling sin and evil's presence therein, IN HIS OWN mind. Phil. 3:21.

I think this is rather easy to see myself. But evil's presence does blind believers to these "internal quotients" quite easily, it seems.

Pity, really. We all sit vainly trying to justify what God condemns.

We STAND on a battlefield with adverse to The Spirit workings in our own flesh. When we heap the things of God in Christ on our enemies, justifying, covering, claiming what is ours unto them, we have been deceived.

This is a hard thing to see, but the CONDEMNATION of Christ is in fact "our ALLY."

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body."

The "general" issue that your posture represents is that believers NOW are only Gods children.

The Bible tells us that we who have believed ARE the children of God.

John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave (aorist tense) the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

The aorist tense generally means an occurrence in the past. So the right to be His children was given WHEN one believes, not in the future.

Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

This means we ARE sons WHEN we believe.

That simply isn't the case.

It is the case, as the 2 verses above show.

There is a factual WAR that transpires on earth within us, with the "spirit of disobedience."

Yes, there is. And the factual war is between our human (sinful) nature and our new spiritual nature, as Paul taught in Rom 6, 7 and Gal 5:17.

Paul pinpoints this matter here:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Yes, there it is. Clearly.

Do you see the WAR? No. It is on the INSIDE.

Of course.

Now, how friendly are you to our enemies when you heap Salvation and Grace and Mercy and "eternal security" where it doesn't belong?

I don't understand your question, therefore, cannot answer it. Where does eternal security "not belong"? Please answer. Then I can answer your question.

It's just a sight of blindness in the flesh, IMPOSED by our adversary, on the part of the claimants who can not see or perceive what is "really" going on inside, which IS WAR.

I clearly know there is war between the flesh and the Spirit. So let's move on.

When believers try to "save" the enemy, they have a TROJAN HORSE inserted into the camp.

Again, I have no idea the point here. Who is trying to "save the enemy", and more importantly, WHY would any believer want to try to do that? And what's this "trojan horse"? Specifically.

The flesh is where the WAR transpires.

I agree. Let's move on.

The War has adverse spiritual opponents.

Let's just call it the enemy. Singular.

The warring happens to transpire IN the flesh, but the flesh itself is not the "warriors" on the other side of the equation, but the "spirit(s) of disobedience." Indwelling sin and evil present is NOT forensic. We can't "see" it scientifically. Therefore it can only be spiritually adverse in nature. God Himself has committed this "WAR" to be "in" man's flesh very early on in the scriptures by placing ENMITY between the "seed" of the serpent and the SEED of the woman, Eve. Her "seed" is mankind, and from that seed our Ultimate Warrior, God Himself first in flesh, then Risen to Eternal Glory.

How about just saying the war is spiritual, not physical? Wouldn't that be shorter, and the same message?

But God in Christ has reserved the FINAL EXECUTION of the spirit(s) of disobedience to come at the END of the saga of this present life.

But none of this relates to our eternal security. Or, if it is, it hasn't been explained.

Still so eager to heap upon yourself 'eternal security?'

My confidence is because of the promise of God. Everyone should be so eager. But, just to clarify, I haven't "heaped upon myself" eternal security. It's a gift from God. Given by God. To believers. So your perspective isn't biblical.

That's fine. But understand where THE LINE in the dust pile is SECURELY DRAWN. It will not and can not extend as far as you think you see, to our spiritual adversary WARRING in the flesh.

I still have no idea why the spiritual adversary has any relevance to my eternal security.

Our spiritual adversaries are under AN ETERNAL DEATH SENTENCE.

I've already agreed to that. Matt 25:41

We are waiting for the 'final eradication.'

Nope. Not me. I'm awaiting my resurrection body. Why should anyone care about or wait for a "final eradication"?

Till then, there is WAR.

Our enemies will not be spared. Not by blinded claims or otherwise.

So, who is the one who has claimed otherwise?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body."

Your scriptural accounting remains void of the obvious.

Please explain what is 'obvious' that I've missed. Unless there is some explanation, your views are certainly not obvious to me.

We do have spiritual adversaries that "war" in our own flesh. I'm repeating this just to see if you can recognize the fact of WAR:

I have ALREADY noted that fact. So, let's move on.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

This "war" is not with the flesh, but with very real existing opponents that are, as Paul described, "NO MORE I." Romans 7:17-21. Eph. 6:11-12 shows identically WHO it is we are "warring with." It is "not us." It is "not" the flesh.

I've already noted that.

It is quite entirely foolish to grant 'eternal security' to these agents of WAR when scriptures show the opposite fate awaits them.

Are you suggesting that "these agents of WAR", being fallen angels, would be granted eternal security? Who would do that? Seriously.

Your statements continue to baffle me.

Such claims and positions are blind to what is going on.

I wish I could figure out your views.

Standing in warring flesh, claiming the opponents under Grace, Mercy, Love, forgiveness, obedience, faith etc etc will not and can not compute in this TIME OF WAR.

Please explain who, specifically, are the "opponents" so I can properly respond to your statement.

It is the time to take NO prisoners in this regard, but rather to CONDEMN them.

Could you please explain what this means?

 

[FreeGrace]

Scripture expressly states that sin indwells our flesh and evil is present with us. Romans 7:17-21.

Could you please explain whatever effect that may have on eternal security?

There is little use running away from these facts.

I, for one, would like some answers, so I'll at least understand your position.

And, because of this, there is WARRING internally just as Paul explicitly states in Romans 7:23.

Those who claim they are "exempt" from this war, I might consider have merely been sidelined by the "opposition movement."

Who is claiming to be exempt from this war??

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"Why would I think it was? I've already said that the body ends in the ground (grave). The physical body is NOT saved in any sense. The soul and spirit are saved. And will receive a resurrection body."

Were that "all" that is going on in the body, currently, you'd have your point. But as repeatedly noted the position you posture, which I DON'T disagree with is not the "whole equation."

There is also a war, currently, with spiritual adversity.

Attempting to paint the "whole pile" with eternal security will not work, nor can it work nor was it meant to work.

Tell me how you are war and WHO you are at war with, and maybe we'll see something truthful together?

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

You see on the other hand, only "eternal security." I don't because that isn't the whole story and won't be until the war is over.

This is the "expectation" of Christ:

Hebrews 10:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

 

[smaller]

The Bible tells us that we who have believed ARE the children of God.

This is tedious. I'm trying to be patient.

Does evil present with us and sin dwelling in our flesh "believe?" Does it "obey?" Is it "eternally secure?" Is it "off the hook?" "Forgiven?" "Overlooked?" Graced over? Given Mercy?

Exactly zero of that ever happened. These workings that ARE in our flesh, Christ condemned. Do we take this condemnation on? Of course. Exactly to "those workings." We don't paint them up with "eternal security."

And the people on the other side of this debate have the identical posture. Trying quite futily to drag 'evil present' and "indwelling sin" into "obedience" and "legally complaint" and "in faith" and on and on this kind of nonsense goes.

Where are the people who condemn their evil present and their indwelling sin? Are there any? Or is everyone just blind to the obvious problems of trying to fit these adverse spiritual components into compliance with the Gospel? Making same only "under Grace" or ever working to "make indwelling sin and evil present, compliant."

You understand that the general rule in play here is that evil present in anyone is NOT cooperative, nor can it be?

John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave (aorist tense) the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

The aorist tense generally means an occurrence in the past. So the right to be His children was given WHEN one believes, not in the future.

Were that "all" that is involved you'd have a point. But it's not.

Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Is this a "son of God?"

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is this "a son of God?"

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Is this "a son of God?"

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Is this a "son of God?"

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Is this a "son of God?"

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Is this a "son of God?"

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

At some point I might think a believer or two might recognize the fact of a "spiritual adversary" operating in THE FLESH.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

This is not some "dude" walking around where it can be seen with little red pointy twin horns and a long pointy tail. It is the working of "temptations" "deceptions" "error" and a myriad of other workings that are "exposed" in the scriptures referred to as 'the spirit of disobedience.'

And yes, our own "flesh" is in constant seige, because of this adversary.

Your position on the other hand is completely devoid of this basic understanding, and just wants to paint the whole pile of a "believer" as "eternally secure." Nothing could be further from the truth.

The evil present with NO MAN is justified. And this "evil present" is an "adverse spiritual working" that we CARRY in our own flesh.

So, is it just you, this evil present, or would you prefer to get the spiritual adversary into the picture as the scriptures propose?

Was Paul "evil?" Or was the evil present with Paul in actuality, "the spirit of disobedience" that WAS NOT PAUL?

Be careful with that brush. IF we claim "evil Paul" we're all in big big trouble because we just believed an evil man.

 

[FreeGrace]

Were that "all" that is going on in the body, currently, you'd have your point. But as repeatedly noted the position you posture, which I DON'T disagree with is not the "whole equation."

Please explain this "whole equation", so I can respond to it.

There is also a war, currently, with spiritual adversity.

I already know that. Please explain the "whole equation".

Attempting to paint the "whole pile" with eternal security will not work, nor can it work nor was it meant to work.

When have I done this? I have already agreed that the body cannot be saved in any sense. It will perish, and we will be given a resurrection body. I don't even know if that is in your view. Please clarify.

Tell me how you are war and WHO you are at war with, and maybe we'll see something truthful together?

I've already acknowledged what the Bible says about war. Rom 6, 7 and Gal 5. Is there something else? If so, please explain what it is.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

You see on the other hand, only "eternal security."

Because Rom 7:23 has no relevance to eternal security. But since it seems you think there is, could you explain it?

I don't because that isn't the whole story and won't be until the war is over.

Please explain the "whole story". I remain baffled at your balking at this.

This is the "expectation" of Christ:

Hebrews 10:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

And what does this have to do with eternal security?

I wish you'd explain yourself. Your view is as unclear now as ever. And to think I finally understood it yesterday.

So, please explain yourself.

Does anyone else understand his views?

 

[smaller]

Oh, that's rich. I've been asking for an explanation of your views for as long as you've been posting, and I still haven't been provided any clear explanation. I've been MORE than patient.

The information of scriptures regarding these matters is "resisted" by the working of the "spirit of disobedience."

I can point to scriptures that say "sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:8, or that it is Satan that steals Word from people's hearts, Mark 4:15, or that Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7, or that the devil tempts us internally in mind and heart, therefore the location of same is also "internal" in the flesh, Romans 9:18-24, Gal. 3:13-14, or that the flesh is and remains factually AGAINST the Spirit, Gal.5:17, but ALL of this factual information WILL be resisted "in the flesh" every time by that agent who can not "tell the truth." Nor let it be told.

Therefore it is tedious, but there are "other reasons" to employ the information regardless of agreement. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56.

Do you agree or disagree with the FACT that both john 1:12 and Gal 3:26 teach that we become children of God WHEN we believe? If you disagree, please explain how these 2 verses don't teach that.

I disagree with making 'evil present' and sin indwelling the flesh of any person "eternally secure" "under Grace" etc etc. We've been through this numerous times.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Here is that disobedience, openly identified, as "spiritual disobedience":

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In salvation, we are "divided" from that working i.e. we are shown, as Paul was shown, that it is NO MORE I. Romans 7:17-20.

What does happen is that the "warring" is engaged, in the flesh.

Regardless, Christ condemns sin dwelling in the flesh, and evil present, period. Romans 8:3. And believers really don't care to have this aspect of scriptures, condemnation, applied to their own hides, because of the spirit of disobedience therein, who RESISTS hearing of it.

Rev. 2:
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The information of scriptures regarding these matters is "resisted" by the working of the "spirit of disobedience."

I can point to scriptures that say "sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:8, or that it is Satan that steals Word from people's hearts, Mark 4:15, or that Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7, or that the devil tempts us internally in mind and heart, therefore the location of same is also "internal" in the flesh, Romans 9:18-24, Gal. 3:13-14, or that the flesh is and remains factually AGAINST the Spirit, Gal.5:17, but ALL of this factual information WILL be resisted "in the flesh" every time by that agent who can not "tell the truth." Nor let it be told.

Therefore it is tedious, but there are "other reasons" to employ the information regardless of agreement. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56.


I disagree with making 'evil present' and sin indwelling the flesh of any person "eternally secure" "under Grace" etc etc. We've been through this numerous times.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Here is that disobedience, openly identified, as "spiritual disobedience":

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In salvation, we are "divided" from that working i.e. we are shown, as Paul was shown, that it is NO MORE I. Romans 7:17-20.

What does happen is that the "warring" is engaged, in the flesh.

Regardless, Christ condemns sin dwelling in the flesh, and evil present, period. Romans 8:3. And believers really don't care to have this aspect of scriptures, condemnation, applied to their own hides, because of the spirit of disobedience therein, who RESISTS hearing of it.

Rev. 2:
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You should read farther than verse 3 in Romans 8.
Romans 8:4 " That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". What does this verse mean?
Romans 8:5 " For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Then we have verse 6
Romans 8:6 " For to be carnally minded is death: but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." So, are you carnally minded or are you spiritually minded.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You should read farther than verse 3 in Romans 8.
Romans 8:4 " That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". What does this verse mean?
Romans 8:5 " For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Then we have verse 6
Romans 8:6 " For to be carnally minded is death: but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." So, are you carnally minded or are you spiritually minded.

I'll walk where the Apostle led to follow, and speak honestly according to his measures.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

No spirit of disobedience in the FLESH can speak these truths because they are liars who can not speak the truth.

And that's precisely why The Holy Spirit laid these measures.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I've been asking for an explanation of your views for as long as you've been posting, and I still haven't been provided any clear explanation."

The information of scriptures regarding these matters is "resisted" by the working of the "spirit of disobedience."

I believe the fault lays at your feet for not answering my questions or providing clear explanations.

I can point to scriptures that say "sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:8, or that it is Satan that steals Word from people's hearts, Mark 4:15, or that Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7, or that the devil tempts us internally in mind and heart, therefore the location of same is also "internal" in the flesh, Romans 9:18-24, Gal. 3:13-14, or that the flesh is and remains factually AGAINST the Spirit, Gal.5:17, but ALL of this factual information WILL be resisted "in the flesh" every time by that agent who can not "tell the truth." Nor let it be told

So can I point to such verses.

Therefore it is tedious, but there are "other reasons" to employ the information regardless of agreement.

Unless there is a clear explanation of your views and points, the information hasn't been "employed".

I disagree with making 'evil present' and sin indwelling the flesh of any person "eternally secure" "under Grace" etc etc. We've been through this numerous times.

You still don't seem to get it. I've NEVER said anything about even trying to "make evil present and sin indwelling the flesh "eternally secure", because evil and sin do NOT have eternally secure.

This is what's so frustrating about trying to have a conversation with you. I'm made the same points as it seems you've made, but it seems you still think I believe something else.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Please explain what this has to do with eternal security.

Here is that disobedience, openly identified, as "spiritual disobedience":[

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In salvation, we are "divided" from that working i.e. we are shown, as Paul was shown, that it is NO MORE I. Romans 7:17-20.

Please explain what this has to do with eternal security.

What does happen is that the "warring" is engaged, in the flesh.

I've agreed to this.

Regardless, Christ condemns sin dwelling in the flesh, and evil present, period. Romans 8:3. And believers really don't care to have this aspect of scriptures, condemnation, applied to their own hides, because of the spirit of disobedience therein, who RESISTS hearing of it.

Please explain what this has to do with eternal security.

Rev. 2:
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

What's your point here?

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"I've been asking for an explanation of your views for as long as you've been posting, and I still haven't been provided any clear explanation."

Provided Paul's own statements of fact many times:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Eternal life to Paul and eternal death to the messenger of Satan walked in the same pair of shoes.

 

[JLB]

Does anyone else understand his views?

Yes.

Satan dwells in our flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Sin is Satan.
Satan is sin. 1 John 3:8

The "parties" involved in Christians are Satan and the person themself.

No matter what sin the Christians does, he will not be held accountable for it because it is Satan doing the sinning.

For the Christian or unbeliever the condition is the same, Satan dwells in our flesh.

All scripture s viewed through this "understanding"


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Does anyone else understand his views?

As far as I can tell?.............We are indwelt by demons and satan and we are warring with them/him as THEY are our flesh.

Instead of the body,soul and spirit of a SAVED man as tricotomus . He believes our flesh is a literal demon.........that's how I see it.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Please explain the "whole story". I remain baffled at your balking at this.

Hi FreeGrace, It has always been Satan's purpose to confuse and to call God a liar from the very beginning. From the Garden of Eden he took God's word and made Eve to question what God had told her in simple words about the Tree in the midst of the garden, and even made God out to be a liar, and that man should scrutinize the word of God. (Gen. 2:15-18) (Gen. 3:1-6).

If you believe God, there is no need to try to get an understanding from a Doctrine that does not glorify God and bring peace to your heart in mercy and grace. We are sinners all and we all need the Lord, and the simplicity of our salvation is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:1-4). All of Paul's Epistles either start or end with peace and joy in Christ.....not confusion and impatience.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life to Paul and eternal death to the messenger of Satan walked in the same pair of shoes.

Finally. Resolution of your position. And I've already noted the same.

Believers have eternal life. Fallen angels face the lake of fire.

btw, the comment about the "same pair of shoes" is immaterial and wrong. Paul was not demon possessed. It is impossible for any demon, Satan or otherwise, to indwell any believer. The reason is simple: believers are indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.

Why would anyone think that the devil could dwell where God Himself dwells??

The only issue regarding eternal life is in relation to human beings. No other kind of creature.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes.

Satan dwells in our flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Sin is Satan.
Satan is sin. 1 John 3:8

The "parties" involved in Christians are Satan and the person themself.

No matter what sin the Christians does, he will not be held accountable for it because it is Satan doing the sinning.

For the Christian or unbeliever the condition is the same, Satan dwells in our flesh.

All scripture s viewed through this "understanding"
JLB

Quite a misunderstanding then. First, Paul was never demon possessed. He misunderstands the figure of speech "thorn in the flesh".

 

[FreeGrace]

As far as I can tell?.............We are indwelt by demons and satan and we are warring with them/him as THEY are our flesh.

Instead of the body,soul and spirit of a SAVED man as tricotomus . He believes our flesh is a literal demon.........that's how I see it.

Thanks. His misunderstanding of the figure of speech was his downfall.