Resisting "the Mystery of God"

[Willie T]

Seriously (and I do mean it) there really are a lot of smart people here. But many of us are just too danged opinionated for it to be of much use to anyone else.

 

[jasonc]

Seriously (and I do mean it) there really are a lot of smart people here. But many of us are just too danged opinionated for it to be of much use to anyone else.

I know what you are saying and I was poking at you. the more I think I know, I don't know. since jesse mentioned doing over perfectly correct doctrine. the former is more important to Jesus then perfect doctrinal understanding.

end times isn't that important as some say.

 

[Willie T]

Did you ever notice how much of "doctrine" Jesus DIDN'T preach?

 

[jasonc]

Did you ever notice how much of "doctrine" Jesus DIDN'T preach?

remember I view jesus through jewish eyes. the rabbis didn't fight over doctrine but how to apply torah. note that torah does include the afterlife, divorce and other things that jesus addressed. so he was correcting them on how to live the torah.

 

[Jesse]

Truthfully, I am fairly certain I'm almost as smart as a bar of soap.

Certainly...

Most of us aren't.....haha

 

[Jesse]

Did you ever notice how much of "doctrine" Jesus DIDN'T preach?

Yes, He did - He preached my doctrine! lol

 

[Willie T]

remember I view jesus through jewish eyes. the rabbis didn't fight over doctrine but how to apply torah. note that torah does include the afterlife, divorce and other things that jesus addressed. so he was correcting them on how to live the torah.

An interesting note to ponder. Thank you.

 

[Jesse]

remember I view jesus through jewish eyes. the rabbis didn't fight over doctrine but how to apply torah. note that torah does include the afterlife, divorce and other things that jesus addressed. so he was correcting them on how to live the torah.

I agree with Willie, this is interesting.

It's the doing part, and after 400+ years of silence I can understand why some Pharisees were so legalistic.

Unfortunately some people believe ALL Pharisees were this way, but my understanding is that many of them understood the importance of cleansing themselves from the inside, too.

 

[Willie T]

There were Pharisees who were sympathetic to Jesus, and actually warned Him of certain dangers,

 

[Jesse]

There were Pharisees who were sympathetic to Jesus, and actually warned Him of certain dangers,

I wonder if these eventually God blessed for their kindness and opened their eyes of who He was???

 

[jasonc]

I wonder if these eventually God blessed for their kindness and opened their eyes of who He was???

you should read up on the houses of shimei and hillel.

the lineage of hillel to paul

hillel-gameliel-saul who became paul.

 

[Malachi]

but doctrine doesn't always make disciples, does it?

Jesse,
We can (and must) go only by what Scripture reveals. A disciple would be a mature Christian, and a mature Christian is called a "complete" Christian (translated as "perfect" below).

2 Tim 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So what does it take to go from a "babe in Christ" to a "mature Christian"? You will notice above that everything starts with "doctrine" and ends in "good works". Without doctrine, a babe in Christ will be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4:14). The confusion in Christendom today is because of a lack of sound doctrine. A solidly grounded Christian can withstand the attacks of the Devil and be a good disciple.

Christ went into every town and village (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) teaching the Truth (doctrine), (3) healing and ministering to the physical and spiritual needs of people, and (4) doing good works constantly. He also spent long hours in prayer. That's what He expects of His disciples.

 

[Sinthesis]

It is a virus when dealing with the supernatural and with Divine revelation:

Wouldn't you say rationalism is useful when dealing with fraudulent claims imitating the supernatural, or cultic revelation masquerading as divine?

Since Christianity regards REVELATION as the chief source and test of knowledge, rationalism is the enemy of revelation. Thus a virus meant to destroy faith and enthrone human reason above God.

The revealed source and test of knowledge with regards to theology is the bible. Rationalism is a tool that strengthens faith in God by exposing as unbiblical the unchristian doctrines false teachers claim to derive from the bible.

This speaks of the reasonableness of the Gospel. Not rationalism and led to theological liberalism and unbelief.

Yes, the Gospel is reasonable, rational even, and need not lead to unbelief in the Gospel.

Why not? It is rationalism that attacked the inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the Bible. Indeed the authority of the Bible as the Word of God was attacked by rationalism.

The bible can survive any rationalist attacks against it, unlike the scriptures of other faiths. The inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the holy bible as the word of God can't be defeated by rationalism. Rather, only certain interpretations of biblical passages can be shown to be less than ideal as a description of reality when compared rationally with other possible biblical interpretations. The problem is that people really don't want to give up their interpretations even if a more rational one conforms just as well, or even better, to biblical principles.

 

[veryberry]

In last days the mystery of God will be replaced with full assurance of understanding.

Eph 3:3-5 - How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Eph 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God has made known the mystery. He wants us to fully understand the mystery. Paul's epistles are where we learn the mystery of God and have full assurance and understanding. Ignorance will not be an excuse.

 

[smaller]

Wouldn't you say rationalism is useful when dealing with fraudulent claims imitating the supernatural, or cultic revelation masquerading as divine?

The revealed source and test of knowledge with regards to theology is the bible. Rationalism is a tool that strengthens faith in God by exposing as unbiblical the unchristian doctrines false teachers claim to derive from the bible.

Yes, the Gospel is reasonable, rational even, and need not lead to unbelief in the Gospel.

The bible can survive any rationalist attacks against it, unlike the scriptures of other faiths. The inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the holy bible as the word of God can't be defeated by rationalism. Rather, only certain interpretations of biblical passages can be shown to be less than ideal as a description of reality when compared rationally with other possible biblical interpretations. The problem is that people really don't want to give up their interpretations even if a more rational one conforms just as well, or even better, to biblical principles.

Well said above.

There are various forms of reasoning or rationalism. Theology itself as a field of study deals entirely with matters of spiritual reasoning, which tend toward eternal matters and concepts that other forms of rationalism can't deal with. The opening poster seems to have a hard time, perhaps, with some schools of theology stemming from the German Protestants. Personally I've found some of their members exceptionally sound in their theological concepts and methodologies. Very uplifting and edifying. I'd say the same with certain scholars of orthodoxy. I will entertain theologians from outside of traditional schools that aren't considered christian such as Mormons just to hear their theological reasoning, and believe it or not, some of their concepts have hints of theological merit as well. No one who steps into the field of theology is going to be empty handed in their entirety.

I would agree with him that in some arenas of higher learning some have derived essentially Godless conclusions. That seems to happen in every sect as the people with greater intelligence coupled with greater abilities to manipulate tend to take over systems over the course of time. It happens everywhere. Part of the human condition. After a time you have to disconnect from these types of systems because the people are corrupted by their "higher reasoning" combined with adverse force. And that can happen anywhere, even if they might have a lot of things scripturally correct.

The field of theology remains a freestanding arena. The only unfortunate thing about the field itself is that sooner or later it has to play to the masses to make it pay, and that's really where the wheels come off of various schools because it has to sell itself to the masses in order to crank the money grinder for the proponents. We see this in the capitalist structures here in America played out horrendously. And that is also usually the path that corruption takes.

A lot of theology ends up pandering to the audience for cash.

 

[smaller]

Eph 3:3-5 - How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Eph 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God has made known the mystery. He wants us to fully understand the mystery. Paul's epistles are where we learn the mystery of God and have full assurance and understanding. Ignorance will not be an excuse.

Those types of subjects. Mysteries. Are extremely difficult territory. They defy capture in their entirety by nature. Where you say there is no excuse for example I'd say it's only a miracle to be able to enter into the Mystery of Faith to begin with. Paul only saw in part. So does everyone see only in part. That is a sound theological premise that everyone should keep in mind and acknowledge as a sign of their own sound understandings.

It's when people pick up these concepts and begin to trash others with them, insisting they have the whole enchilada to the detriment of others that they have themselves fouled up entirely. That is just not good theology. In the field in general, theology tends to bring out some of the worst tendencies of human nature. That is kind of how the sinful human nature reacts to the Word and it's one of the early lessons of the field. We can readily see manipulating, nearly psychopathic controlling leaders in many religious arenas. It's an area that I am personally sensitive to and reject any such approaches as being legitimate.

James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Probably the best line of testing there is, above, there from James to apply to any speaker.

 

[Jesse]

Well said above.

There are various forms of reasoning or rationalism. Theology itself as a field of study deals entirely with matters of spiritual reasoning, which tend toward eternal matters and concepts that other forms of rationalism can't deal with. The opening poster seems to have a hard time, perhaps, with some schools of theology stemming from the German Protestants. Personally I've found some of their members exceptionally sound in their theological concepts and methodologies. Very uplifting and edifying. I'd say the same with certain scholars of orthodoxy. I will entertain theologians from outside of traditional schools that aren't considered christian such as Mormons just to hear their theological reasoning, and believe it or not, some of their concepts have hints of theological merit as well. No one who steps into the field of theology is going to be empty handed in their entirety.

I would agree with him that in some arenas of higher learning some have derived essentially Godless conclusions. That seems to happen in every sect as the people with greater intelligence coupled with greater abilities to manipulate tend to take over systems over the course of time. It happens everywhere. Part of the human condition. After a time you have to disconnect from these types of systems because the people are corrupted by their "higher reasoning" combined with adverse force. And that can happen anywhere, even if they might have a lot of things scripturally correct.

The field of theology remains a freestanding arena. The only unfortunate thing about the field itself is that sooner or later it has to play to the masses to make it pay, and that's really where the wheels come off of various schools because it has to sell itself to the masses in order to crank the money grinder for the proponents. We see this in the capitalist structures here in America played out horrendously. And that is also usually the path that corruption takes.

A lot of theology ends up pandering to the audience for cash.

This is amazingly insightful, blew me away. It answers several of my questions about structure and dynamics of organizations - including churches. Thanks for posting it.

 

[jasonc]

ok, so the bible give such insight that we can understand HIM fully?

on that note:
1) how does a God die and also not according to acts chapter one fully know all things? Jesus said he didn't know when the Father would restore isreal and the times of the seasons of that.
2)How does the trinity not be real and not hard to grasp?
3) What does the Father look like? He isn't shown in any imagery in any of the Books.


I can go on for a while with that on things I have pondered.

 

[Jesse]

Jesse,
We can (and must) go only by what Scripture reveals. A disciple would be a mature Christian, and a mature Christian is called a "complete" Christian (translated as "perfect" below).

2 Tim 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So what does it take to go from a "babe in Christ" to a "mature Christian"? You will notice above that everything starts with "doctrine" and ends in "good works". Without doctrine, a babe in Christ will be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4:14). The confusion in Christendom today is because of a lack of sound doctrine. A solidly grounded Christian can withstand the attacks of the Devil and be a good disciple.

Christ went into every town and village (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) teaching the Truth (doctrine), (3) healing and ministering to the physical and spiritual needs of people, and (4) doing good works constantly. He also spent long hours in prayer. That's what He expects of His disciples.

Hi Malachi,
I'm not meaning to downplay the importance of doctrine, and definitely there needs to be some rationalization form the hearer in order to comprehend. We also do need to have at least some knowledge in order to follow Christ, yet we don't all need to be scholars in order to do the same.

Our faith is what produces works, not our doctrine, the issue is we are not being taught to be disciples, people don't understand the concepts of picking up our cross daily (some people have no clue they are supposed to), dying to self so we can love others, etc.. I just think we have been indoctrinated enough and that is part of the problem, after all true religion is taking care of the widows and the orphans.

 

[jasonc]

Hi Malachi,
I'm not meaning to downplay the importance of doctrine, and definitely there needs to be some rationalization form the hearer in order to comprehend. We also do need to have at least some knowledge in order to follow Christ, yet we don't all need to be scholars in order to do the same.

Our faith is what produces works, not our doctrine. I just think we have been indoctrinated enough and that is part of the problem, after all true religion is taking care of the widows and the orphans.

<like> yeah what he said.