Restoration Theology

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again Godsgrace,


I do not believe in the "hell" of pagan religion and Greek philosophy. Take for example the most important verse on the subject, taken from the Resurrection Psalm which Peter expounds on the Day of Pentecost, soon after the Resurrection of Jesus, His Change to Immortality, His Exaltation and Ascension to Heaven to sit at God the Father's right hand in God the Father's Throne Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:20-21:
Psalm 16:8–11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Now David the initial speaker of this Psalm did go to hell, the covered place, the place where the dead are laid, and so that the smell after three or four days is not objectionable to the passer by, as expressed by Martha:
John 11:39 (KJV): Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Now David was also laid in a tomb, and he decayed back to the dust, but he states:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
But in contrast, when speaking of the Christ who would come, he says:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Adam and his descendants were sentenced to return to the dust, and not necessarily because of their own sin, such as when a babe who dies, but they partake of the mortality of man because of the Sin of Adam. Now Jesus partook of this mortality, and if he had lived to 100 he may have died, but we know that he even volunteered to die at the request of His Father, suffering at the hands of cruel men.

Now the Justice and Mercy of God is revealed here. Jesus came under the sentence of mortality, he died, and yet he had never sinned and hence the sentence of returning to the dust was not valid with Jesus, and he saw NO CORRUPTION, but was raised from the dead, as the GRAVE could not hold him. This was the means of reversal of the Law or Sentence in Eden. Not just because of the Law established in Eden, but also because of the Father's LOVE and fellowship with His Beloved Son.
Psalm 21:1–6 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever. 5 His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him. 6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

This is the essence of what Peter expounds on the Day of Pentecost, as stated in the following:
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter also applies the first phrase "that his soul was not left in hell" to Jesus as well as David himself. There is no mention of immortal souls going to heaven and hell at death, but absolutely the opposite.

Now to answer your question directly, when a child dies, they return to the dust. It is up to God and His Mercy if some of the dead children are resurrected at the beginning of the Kingdom, but in general if a child dies, then that this is the end of their existence.

The whole man is a soul. It is not a separate entity from the body and hence the words "soul sleep" is ambiguous and almost relies on the same concept as the pagan teaching that thinking must be a separate entity, while we know that our thoughts are connected in a marvelous way with our brain and if oxygen is deprived our thoughts cease.
John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

God is everywhere present by His Holy Spirit which fills heaven and earth:
Psalm 139:1–9 (KJV): 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks for your reply.
I can't agree with anything of what you've stated.
God cannot be in hell for instance.
The body is not the soul.
I hope you realize that Jesus is the ultimate revelation.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Jesus is God who took upon Himself a human body. Do you believe Jesus was 100% God/ and 100% man???

No, not in the sense that you are suggesting, along the well trodden path of the popular teaching, which is erroneous, contradictory and impossible. He is a man, and he was a specially prepared vessel to accomplish the work of salvation that no other man could do. He also fully revealed Yahweh, the One God, His Father.

The position and status of Jesus is absolutely important, but it does not agree with popular theology, and we would disagree over the meaning of the opening verses, but you in reality would reject the closing verses:
Philippians 2:4–11 (KJV): 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father, the Creator of All Things, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, now exalted to sit at God the Father's right hand, in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, by character and by resurrection. I have a thread "The Yahweh Name" which goes some way to explain my understanding of this important subject.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

christianforums.net

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again GodsGrace

Thanks for your reply.

I appreciate your interaction as it allows both perspectives to be presented for consideration.

I can't agree with anything of what you've stated.

It seems clear to me, and I was not only brought up as a child in this faith through Sunday School, but I am now 80 y.o. and more convinced than ever.

God cannot be in hell for instance.

Why not? I think that you and your co-religionists have a real problem with "hell". Did Satan create hell so that he can torture children and the wicked with flame and worms for ever? And if it is Satan's territory, is God not powerful enough to stop this travesty of justice, or are God, Jesus and Satan in agreement and collusion with this procedure?

The body is not the soul.

You need to look again at the Bible definition and the exposition of this verse in the Resurrection Chapter, a Chapter speaking to Greeks, and no mention or hint of immortal souls.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:42–50 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I hope you realize that Jesus is the ultimate revelation.

Yes, Jesus is the full revelation of His Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Greetings again Iconclast,

No, not in the sense that you are suggesting, along the well trodden path of the popular teaching, which is erroneous, contradictory and impossible.

A belief in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is essential to any person being saved and going to heaven.
Failure to declare this indicates a person is still in the realm of spiritual death, as they are not indwelt by the Spirit of God.
1cor12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Your clear denial of this means unless you seek God for mercy, you will soon be cast away at the White Throne judgment.

He is a man, and he was a specially prepared vessel to accomplish the work of salvation that no other man could do. He also fully revealed Yahweh, the One God, His Father.

God the Son , came to earth being sent by the Father. Buy any book on cults and read up on JW teaching which is the falsehood you are proclaiming.

The position and status of Jesus is absolutely important, but it does not agree with popular theology, and we would disagree over the meaning of the opening verses, but you in reality would reject the closing verses:

Yes...You do not agree that the text says He took upon a body of flesh....he existed as God , but took upon Himself a body. This denial is how we know your sad condition.

Philippians 2:4–11 (KJV): 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father, the Creator of All Things, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, now exalted to sit at God the Father's right hand, in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, by character and by resurrection. I have a thread "The Yahweh Name" which goes some way to explain my understanding of this important subject.

The Yahweh Name

The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14-15. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ...

christianforums.net

You do not have much time, you need to study this before you perish.You seem like a nice person and I would prefer to know you came to truth

Kind regards

Trevor I cannot offer you kind regards as I do not want to be partaker of your evil deeds as written here.

2jn1:
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No. They are conceived in sin,

Christ does not create nor make anything nor anyone with sin.

You can curse your children as devils from the womb, but not mine nor anyone elses, unless they are foolish enough to do the same.

children of wrath eph2:3

Which are childrend of disobedience, by disobeying God. Men become sinners by sinning themselves against God, not by others sinning. The childen are not judged guilty by the sins of the parents.

Only the soul that sins, dies to God, beginning with the first man Adam.

All sinned in Adam at conception psa51:3

You can call yourself and own wife sinners for conceiveing, as well as naming your own children after the devil.

But the marriage bed is holy and honorable, and so is conception in it.

And no person conceived by Adam, other than Eve.

Cain was evil, and Abel was righteous. And they both came from the same womb. Conception and birth has nothing to do with doing good nor evil. Being born into a godly or ungodly family can promote one or the other.

They are born in rebellion to God.

You can teach yours' to be, but I don't.

You are directly contradicting scripture.,

Show the Scripture and how. Otherwise, I directly contradict you by Scripture many times.

They died in Adam already. God does not make them sinners,

Nor dead in the womb. I've never been in Adam, and would never want to be.

I marry a woman, not a man.

Jesus does not have the exact flesh and blood of all people

Jesus Christ came in the flesh of man, by the seed of David.

He did not come with the body of some superman, which would not by my example to walk like.

Coming in some other unnatural body than of man, is pagan demigod theology.

Many unrepented sinners say Jesus came in some other flesh than their own, in order to justify not walking as He walked in the flesh.

, that is why the virgin birth was necessary.

The virgin birth was a sign of the Messiah coming in the flesh, not a necessity of coming in the flesh of man.

You cannot just string verses together and invent a new meaning.

Show how. In the meantime, I just take all verses of the Bible together and teach their simple meaning.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Neh 8)

And it contradicts your string of personal beliefs.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (Acts 2)

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Rom 1)

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Heb 2)

When you acknowledge the Lord's flesh and blood was with the seed of David and Abraham, and so of Noah and Adam, then we can continue.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth. (Acts 17)

You can also acknowledge all men have the same natural blood made by Christ, beginning with Adam. Including Jesus Christ come in natural flesh and blood, and not the 'divine' ichor of the gods.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

A belief in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is essential to any person being saved and going to heaven.
Failure to declare this indicates a person is still in the realm of spiritual death, as they are not indwelt by the Spirit of God.

If you were the Judge, then I would miss out on salvation and going to heaven, but I stand before the tribunal of Jesus, and look forward to the resurrection when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth - no heaven going or immortal souls.

Your clear denial of this means unless you seek God for mercy, you will soon be cast away at the White Throne judgment.

I need to check, but I thought the White Throne judgement is at the end of the 1000 years.

God the Son , came to earth being sent by the Father. Buy any book on cults and read up on JW teaching which is the falsehood you are proclaiming.

If you were the Postmaster at a small country town, you would be reprimanded for putting my letter in the wrong pigeon hole. The signature word for JW's is "Jehovah", but I use "Yahweh". The JW's boast of their almost exclusive use of "Jehovah" even though their earlier literature gave a reasonable exposition of how the erroneous form "Jehovah" originated. You remind me of some of the experience of Jesus, when the Jews who opposed him could not answer him, they started to label him:
John 8:31–32 (KJV): 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:48 (KJV): Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
I cannot compare my witness to Truth in any way by comparison to the great witness of Jesus who is The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, but your labeling only reveals your frustration in not being able to answer me.

Yes...You do not agree that the text says He took upon a body of flesh....he existed as God , but took upon Himself a body. This denial is how we know your sad condition.

No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. I am not at all sad, but rejoice in an understanding of this great, holy subject. You have not responded to my thread "The Yahweh Name", because Trinitarians are usually unaware of this Divine Revelation, and you could be in ignorance of this great and important Bible Theme.

You do not have much time, you need to study this before you perish.You seem like a nice person and I would prefer to know you came to truth

I am very conscious of the short time, not only my age, my health and the near return of Jesus. Your frustration or simply carelessness is revealed in the rest of your Post as you attribute to me some things that I did not say in the two last portions of your Post. You should be more careful with your editing.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Greetings again Iconclast,

If you were the Judge, then I would miss out on salvation and going to heaven, but I stand before the tribunal of Jesus, and look forward to the resurrection when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth - no heaven going or immortal souls.

I need to check, but I thought the White Throne judgement is at the end of the 1000 years.

If you were the Postmaster at a small country town, you would be reprimanded for putting my letter in the wrong pigeon hole. The signature word for JW's is "Jehovah", but I use "Yahweh". The JW's boast of their almost exclusive use of "Jehovah" even though their earlier literature gave a reasonable exposition of how the erroneous form "Jehovah" originated. You remind me of some of the experience of Jesus, when the Jews who opposed him could not answer him, they started to label him:
John 8:31–32 (KJV): 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:48 (KJV): Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
I cannot compare my witness to Truth in any way by comparison to the great witness of Jesus who is The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, but your labeling only reveals your frustration in not being able to answer me.

No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. I am not at all sad, but rejoice in an understanding of this great, holy subject. You have not responded to my thread "The Yahweh Name", because Trinitarians are usually unaware of this Divine Revelation, and you could be in ignorance of this great and important Bible Theme.

I am very conscious of the short time, not only my age, my health and the near return of Jesus. Your frustration or simply carelessness is revealed in the rest of your Post as you attribute to me some things that I did not say in the two last portions of your Post. You should be more careful with your editing.

Kind regards
Trevor

I did not read your other thread, because by denying Jesus I see all I need to. You will soon see Him as Judge.
Jesus is God

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

I did not read your other thread, because by denying Jesus I see all I need to.

My experience of Ttrintarians is that they are not really aware of the OT revelation concerning the Subject of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. They are very familiar with the various Creeds, and the few verses in the NT upon which they base their Trinity beliefs, with some variations between adherents.

You will soon see Him as Judge.

Yes, and I have some reservations about my acceptability. Abraham was reserved in approaching the Yahweh Angel, even when he was 99 y.o.

Jesus is God

Yes, but not in the sense that you claim:
John 20:28–31 (KJV): 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The title "God" is also used for the Angels and Judges in the OT, a fact that you most probably have not considered as you are a Trinitarian and most Trinitarians only visit the O.T. on this subject to try to inject the Trinity into a few O.T. passages, where this 3rd Century doctrine is not taught.

In the above passage, I believe that the title "the Son of God" when applied to Jesus in verse 31 is a greater title than the titles "Lord" and "God". But I suggest that you are not interested apart from waving a banner similar to a supporter at a political rally.

There is most probably many more modern books that trace this development, but the following is some of my quotations from a book on the development of the Trinity in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries:

History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.

Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.

Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicaea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

A belief in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is essential to any person being saved and going to heaven.
Failure to declare this indicates a person is still in the realm of spiritual death, as they are not indwelt by the Spirit of God.
1cor12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Your clear denial of this means unless you seek God for mercy, you will soon be cast away at the White Throne judgment.


God the Son , came to earth being sent by the Father. Buy any book on cults and read up on JW teaching which is the falsehood you are proclaiming.

Yes...You do not agree that the text says He took upon a body of flesh....he existed as God , but took upon Himself a body. This denial is how we know your sad condition.

You do not have much time, you need to study this before you perish.You seem like a nice person and I would prefer to know you came to truth

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[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Your clear denial of this means unless you seek God for mercy, you will soon be cast away at the White Throne judgment.

I need to check, but I thought the White Throne judgement is at the end of the 1000 years.

I had a bit of time, and yes, my reading of the following is that the Great White Throne judgement is at the end of the 1000 years, not at the beginning:
Revelation 20:7–15 (KJV): 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It is only at the end of the 1000 years that death itself will be abolished. There will be mortal nations on the earth during the 1000 years.

I believe that Jesus will soon return and raise the "responsible" dead, and judge them and also judge the faithful and some of the unfaithful who are "responsible" to judgement.
1 Peter 4:17–19 (KJV): 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
I will not at this stage elaborate on who I believe are the "responsible".

Daniel 12:1–4 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

1 Corinthians 4:1–5 (KJV): 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

2 Corinthians 5:1–10 (KJV): 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Trevor, I am being told that I cannot be open and honest with you as I have been doing.I am always honest with those I interact with. So if I cannot offer a scriptural warning like an exact quote of 2jn 1.... I cannot really be of help to you as I seek to obey scripture. Perhaps those who would coddle you, and protect you can help you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Trevor, I am being told that I cannot be open and honest with you as I have been doing.I am always honest with those I interact with. So if I cannot offer a scriptural warning like an exact quote of 2jn 1.... I cannot really be of help to you as I seek to obey scripture. Perhaps those who would coddle you, and protect you can help you.

My impression is that you are not really interested in discussing some of the items that I have mentioned, but instead you are only willing to pronounce that I am in great error and outside the pale of salvation. I do not greatly mind this, but it tells me that you are not able or willing to discuss these things simply and clearly.

I do not think I am being coddled, or protected, but I am conscious that I may be walking a very thin line, as I have been banned on other forums for my beliefs. I could name four such forums, and one of them the Moderator banned me mainly because of his belief of 1 John 5:7, which seemed to be his favourite verse despite the objection to this verse by other Trinitarians who were involved in the 21-page thread. I contributed to almost half of the Posts, covering nearly aspect of the two perspectives, Trinitarian, Biblical Unitarianism, but you seem incapable of providing your part, but resort to banner waving and so-called "Biblical" threats.

My views may be new to you, but I was introduced to the concepts of the Yahweh Name by one of our Youth Leaders at a Young People's study weekend when I was 19. This has become one of my favourite Bible subjects and themes ever since, a "first love".

I remember the weekend well. We traveled late at night after a different Friday night class, to the Southern Highlands much to the consternation of our parents due to lateness of the hour. Two of our cars followed a van, but the van did not take a turn around one of the mountain bends and ended up in the valley below. A few were injured in the van, but the driver eventually died. I was left up on the road trying to wave down a possible passing doctor, who came soon after. and recognised the problem. A sobering time. The subject of what we call "God Manifestation" really awakened my initial interest. We were in the company of two couples, who were friends from Sydney, and were primary school teachers in the area, and they were posted there for three years after graduation from Teacher's College. The boys slept in the only schoolroom and the girls in the house. One of these couples are Senior members of my meeting now, in another region, and next week he concludes his exposition of Isaiah, taking many years, giving one chapter per evening. I am the Librarian, and I have a record of ALL his talks from Isaiah 1-65, the early ones in mp3 and slides, and the more recent ones in Video, mp4 - a treasure indeed. Isaiah, Galatians and The Psalms are my favourite Books of the Bible.

Another occurrence on the weekend was that I started to court my future wife for the next four years, and we have now been happily married for 56 years, with four nice children. Yes, we have had our moments, but it could be said we are closer now than ever before, especially since my extended stay in hospital recently, a close encounter as I was resuscitated, and one nurse told me I did not have to tick that box as I had had a fair innings. Three of my children supported Joyce who is not well, and two of them came today, and another tomorrow. The other is in Canberra.

So, Iconoclast, you may try to be true to your name, and seek to break that which is not true worship, but be careful with people and especially with the Holy Things of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Greetings again Iconclast,

My impression is that you are not really interested in discussing some of the items that I have mentioned, but instead you are only willing to pronounce that I am in great error and outside the pale of salvation. I do not greatly mind this, but it tells me that you are not able or willing to discuss these things simply and clearly.

I do not think I am being coddled, or protected, but I am conscious that I may be walking a very thin line, as I have been banned on other forums for my beliefs. I could name four such forums, and one of them the Moderator banned me mainly because of his belief of 1 John 5:7, which seemed to be his favourite verse despite the objection to this verse by other Trinitarians who were involved in the 21-page thread. I contributed to almost half of the Posts, covering nearly aspect of the two perspectives, Trinitarian, Biblical Unitarianism, but you seem incapable of providing your part, but resort to banner waving and so-called "Biblical" threats.

My views may be new to you, but I was introduced to the concepts of the Yahweh Name by one of our Youth Leaders at a Young People's study weekend when I was 19. This has become one of my favourite Bible subjects and themes ever since, a "first love".

I remember the weekend well. We traveled late at night after a different Friday night class, to the Southern Highlands much to the consternation of our parents due to lateness of the hour. Two of our cars followed a van, but the van did not take a turn around one of the mountain bends and ended up in the valley below. A few were injured in the van, but the driver eventually died. I was left up on the road trying to wave down a possible passing doctor, who came soon after. and recognised the problem. A sobering time. The subject of what we call "God Manifestation" really awakened my initial interest. We were in the company of two couples, who were friends from Sydney, and were primary school teachers in the area, and they were posted there for three years after graduation from Teacher's College. The boys slept in the only schoolroom and the girls in the house. One of these couples are Senior members of my meeting now, in another region, and next week he concludes his exposition of Isaiah, taking many years, giving one chapter per evening. I am the Librarian, and I have a record of ALL his talks from Isaiah 1-65, the early ones in mp3 and slides, and the more recent ones in Video, mp4 - a treasure indeed. Isaiah, Galatians and The Psalms are my favourite Books of the Bible.

Another occurrence on the weekend was that I started to court my future wife for the next four years, and we have now been happily married for 56 years, with four nice children. Yes, we have had our moments, but it could be said we are closer now than ever before, especially since my extended stay in hospital recently, a close encounter as I was resuscitated, and one nurse told me I did not have to tick that box as I had had a fair innings. Three of my children supported Joyce who is not well, and two of them came today, and another tomorrow. The other is in Canberra.

So, Iconoclast, you may try to be true to your name, and seek to break that which is not true worship, but be careful with people and especially with the Holy Things of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

I cannot comment more than I have. Ask any questions you have to the moderator as she seems to know all things.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

I cannot comment more than I have. Ask any questions you have to the moderator as she seems to know all things.

Now you are being nasty to the Moderator who seems to be doing a reasonable job. You seem to disqualify yourself from any further discussion with me on this subject. I notice that there is a very long running thread concerning Trinitarians and Unitarians and I thought that the Opening Posts were moderate, tolerating both viewpoints reasonably well, but one or two participants had a similar stance to you, that is, accept the Trinity or you will be damned.

I decided not to participate, as there is far too much repetition, or it appears that way because of the length of the thread. I have only read a few of the early pages, and it was only when you got to the second or third page that a few Scriptures were discussed, but not at length. You may be more comfortable waving your banner in that thread, or starting one of your own.

I am not interested in "rallies" and the people that line up behind the major speaker. It reminds me of the American political circus. In Australia, we have our elections over and done with in a few weeks, and up until recently they used to swap their Prime Minister on a regular basis, mid-term.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RBDERRICK]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

I have a different perspective of human nature,

Man's 'perspective' of human nature is for philosophers, social scientists, and theologians, not for sons of God born of His divine nature.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Col 2)

The righteous judgment of God is by our works, to justify us unto life or to condemn us unto death.

There are two seeds, the seed of the woman, and this is developed by faith, with Christ at the centre, and the seed of the serpent, man and his lusts.

The seed and flesh and blood of men and women are only developed physically through food, drink, and daily activity.

It's the created souls and spirits of men and women, that grow in Christ by obedience to His will.

There is no seed of a serpent in the Bible, but only lies of the devil and his unrepented children doing his will.

Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood, (Is 57)

Jeremiah 17:9–10 (KJV): 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:

The heart of the unrepented doers of wickendness, is decietful, not the purified hearts of the obedient saints in Christ Jesus.

If this verse applies to you, then all you need do is obey God's commandment to all men everywhere, to repent of sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, and cease crucifying the Son unto themselves.

Older men and women are like serpents, while children start and may seem harmless and innocent,

Christ does not create anything sinful, and lightens all babes coming into the world.

The devil is not a creator nor maker of anything but lies. Nor does he have seed, except that of lies.

Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood, (Is 57)

but without intervention and Divine guidance and a spiritual environment from their parents reveal that they are only young snakes.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks, you to.

At this point, if you haven't done so yet, I'll need to see your acknowledgment that Christ is still the Maker of all things, including Creator of all souls of man and woman in His image. And lightens all children coming into the world.

In that way we can avoid any appearance of argument about babes being created devils from the womb, with any 'seed' of the devil sown in their flesh and hearts at conception.

You can also acknolwedge the seed of man is only natural, not spiritual in nature,

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3)

And that the natural seed of Adam, by Abraham and David, was sown by the Spirit into the flesh of Jesus Christ by the womb of Mary.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

Man's 'perspective' of human nature is for philosophers, social scientists, and theologians, not for sons of God born of His divine nature.

I am not really interested in trying to answer all aspects of your reply. I consider man is an animal created with the capacity to receive Divine ideas, and develop the Divine Character. Jesus was and is the greatest fulfilment of this potential, in that he never sinned, and on the positive side, he was as a human, the Son of God, and during his ministry, he was "full of grace and truth". Other faithful have developed, and reflect part of this glory.

Man in his natural state without much education, or the ameliorating effects of spiritual teaching and development can be very brutal and cruel. Much of mankind can be considered the seed of the serpent because they follow the lies of the serpent and the lusts of the flesh govern their lives. The seed of the woman includes those who have received spiritual enlightenment and follow Divine ways.

Yes, we are simply animals, of a higher order than the other animals, we live, we die, we return to the dust, and apart from the resurrection we would perish for ever. There is no infusion of a spirit nature directly from God at birth. We reflect the character and bodies of our parents. Jesus was a descendant of Abraham and David through Mary, thus in line to fulfill the promises to both Abraham and David. In a remarkable way, Jesus was the epitome of their faithful character, by nurture and nature.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Men are not animals. But fallen image bearers of God....but your idea is just wonderful.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Men are not animals. But fallen image bearers of God....but your idea is just wonderful.

Yes, I consider men are simply animals. All creation reflects the glory of God, but man is of a greater capacity to receive the Divine character and ways.
Psalm 49:12–20 (KJV): 12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

I am not really interested in trying to answer all aspects of your reply. I consider man is an animal created with the capacity to receive Divine ideas, and develop the Divine Character. Jesus was and is the greatest fulfilment of this potential, in that he never sinned, and on the positive side, he was as a human, the Son of God, and during his ministry, he was "full of grace and truth". Other faithful have developed, and reflect part of this glory.

Man in his natural state without much education, or the ameliorating effects of spiritual teaching and development can be very brutal and cruel. Much of mankind can be considered the seed of the serpent because they follow the lies of the serpent and the lusts of the flesh govern their lives. The seed of the woman includes those who have received spiritual enlightenment and follow Divine ways.

Yes, we are simply animals, of a higher order than the other animals, we live, we die, we return to the dust, and apart from the resurrection we would perish for ever. There is no infusion of a spirit nature directly from God at birth. We reflect the character and bodies of our parents. Jesus was a descendant of Abraham and David through Mary, thus in line to fulfill the promises to both Abraham and David. In a remarkable way, Jesus was the epitome of their faithful character, by nurture and nature.

Kind regards
Trevor

My goodness TL.
What makes you be a Christian?
The entire bible shows that we are not like animals but were created in the image of God.
What exactly do you think a Christian person SHOULD believe??

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Godsgrace,

My goodness TL. What makes you be a Christian?
The entire bible shows that we are not like animals but were created in the image of God.
What exactly do you think a Christian person SHOULD believe??

With a few words you seek to dismiss my whole belief system, and yet you do not in any way indicate what you really believe about this very complex and comprehensive subject. Perhaps you can give your own explanation of the phrase "the image of God".

Yes, Genesis 1:26-27 states very clearly that we are made in the image and after the likeness of God, and speaking to the Angels God says:
Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So we were made in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels, as stated by David, who succinctly summarises Genesis 1:26-27:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Paul also confirms this expression:
1 Corinthians 11:7 (KJV): For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Now I can understand man being made in the image and after the likeness of the Angels, as often when they appeared they were at first mistaken for men, for example when the Angel wrestled with Jacob. The writer to the Hebrews speaks about the possibility of mistaking Angels as men:
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

But even Jesus who revealed the full moral glory of God, did not reveal the physical glory of God until after his exaltation:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Acts 9:3–9 (KJV): 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 26:13 (KJV): At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

The Angels can at times also reveal this physical glory:
Matthew 28:2–4 (KJV): 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

Now another characteristic of the Angels is that they are immortal. We encounter Michael and Gabriel in the Book of Daniel and Gabriel again in Luke 1. The faithful are promised immortality after the resurrection but now we are mortal Luke 20:34-36. Even Jesus was made a mortal being, a little lower than the Angels Hebrews 2.

Now we have a few pictures of God, the Father Himself. We are given a picture of God sitting upon a Throne in heaven, with the exalted Jesus sitting at His right hand:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And a much more extensive picture of God in His Glory:
1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV): 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now that should be enough framework to discuss this subject. Considering all the above, in what way are we in the image of God, and to what extent? What are you suggesting and why do you reject my position, that man is a creature of the dust, an animal, with the capacity to receive the Divine character and ways?

Kind regards
Trevor