Resurrections A Challnege For futurists

[Ashua]

OK but you need to answer me first. I'll pretend this is not your admission of failure.
True Messiah or false messiahs?

Now man up and answer the challenge ,keep to topic or dont bother.

True messiahs. Men who bore the title Messiah and were endorsed by God Almighty.

 

[Hitch]

Try to re- post #20 something isnt working porperly.

Never mind got through

 

[Ashua]

Ok Quote for us all the passages you can find speaking of multiplied resurrections.

Because I can quote every writer who speaks to the issue in the singular, good luck.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4-6

Notice how the word UNTIL signifies that the rest of the dead were not revived UNTIL a thousand years AFTER the first resurrection?

 

[Hitch]

Notice how the word UNTIL signifies that the rest of the dead were not revived UNTIL a thousand years AFTER the first resurrection?

Exactly where in you chosen passage does it mention bodily resurerrction ?

What was John's location when he saw this?

Was this recorded as a vision or an actuall event ?

I have a thread wrt R 20, you should use your greater understanding and demolish every point line by line.

 

[Hitch]

True messiahs. Men who bore the title Messiah and were endorsed by God Almighty.

There is one Christ, just as there is one God.

 

[jasoncran]

There is one Christ, just as there is one God.

the king of babylonan nebuchanazar is refered to in isiah as the lord's annoited one.

 

[Hitch]

the king of babylonan nebuchanazar is refered to in isiah as the lord's annoited one.

So was Saul .

 

[jasoncran]

So was Saul .

messiah in hebrew means annoited one , or as i say the man with the job to do for the lord.

hamashiach is the word there i think.

 

[Ashua]

Exactly where in you chosen passage does it mention bodily resurerrction ?

What was John's location when he saw this?

Was this recorded as a vision or an actuall event ?

I have a thread wrt R 20, you should use your greater understanding and demolish every point line by line.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 (New King James Version)

A Glorious Body

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?†36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[a] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.†The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[c] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[d] the image of the heavenly Man.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (King James Version)

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Luke 9:28-32 (King James Version)

28And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (King James Version)

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (King James Version)

2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

PART 2 COMING UP

 

[Ashua]

So was Saul .

Yes. Many "Messiahs" in the Old Testament. Now tell me where the plural Machayachim is found. I doubt you will find it and I didn't even bother to see if it was there before I posted this. I am putting my own embarrassment on the line here.

 

[Hitch]

messiah in hebrew means annoited one , or as i say the man with the job to do for the lord.

hamashiach is the word there i think.

Yet there remains but one Christ. Note the upper case C.

If Ashua wants to play a word game , I dont care, a word game and scriptural useage comparisons are not the same thing..

If Ashua you or any one wants to go on about R 20 then they should address the thread First Resurrection.

 

[jasoncran]

Yet there remains but one Christ. Note the upper case C.

If Ashua wants to play a word game , I dont care, a word game and scriptural useage comparisons are not the same thing..

If Ashua you or any one wants to go on about R 20 then they should address the thread First Resurrection.

the word Christ isnt in the hebrew lexicon, in hebrew its something else, though the septugiant has it.

 

[Hitch]

Yes. Many "Messiahs" in the Old Testament. Now tell me where the plural Machayachim is found. I doubt you will find it and I didn't even bother to see if it was there before I posted this. I am putting my own embarrassment on the line here.

Corinthians 15:35-58 (New King James Version)

A

Glorious Body

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[a] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[c] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[d] the image of the heavenly Man.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (King James Version)

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Singular

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



Luke 9:28-32 (King James Version)

28And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

King James Version (KJV)



1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

the dead shall be raised, this must be 'all who are in the gaves' that Jesus spoke of right ?

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (King James Version)

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.



2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (King James Version)

2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Excatly where does this say anything about more than one resurrection ?

 

[Ashua]

1 John 3:2-3 (King James Version)

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Philippians 3:20-21 (King James Version)

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Psalm 17:15 (KJV)

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him.

Romans 6:5-8 (NKJV)

What is He like? How shall be appear to us as He is? How does the Bible describe this likeness of His which will be imputed to us at the second coming?

Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him.

Lk 9:28-32 (NKJV)

...and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Mt 17:2-3 (NKJV)

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. -John 20:27-29

(His resurrected body still bore the marks of the Cross)

... and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen."

Re 1:13-18 (NKJV)

Both beautiful and frightening.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Re 19:11-16 (NKJV)

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Lk 24:36-43 (NIV)

...when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

2 Th 1:10 (NKJV)

He was glorified in the transfiguration and in Revelation. We will also be glorified.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NIV)

 

[Ashua]

Yet there remains but one Christ. Note the upper case C.

If Ashua wants to play a word game , I dont care, a word game and scriptural useage comparisons are not the same thing..

If Ashua you or any one wants to go on about R 20 then they should address the thread First Resurrection.

Uppercase C? That was added by translators. Give me a break. Often you will see me leave proper nouns in lower case and other times capitalize words that should not be capitalized. --This is something I usually do intentionally to show respect for it. If God calls anyone Machiyach, I am going to show respect and capitalize it. The Hebrew and Greek didn't do that, nor did their language markers suggest significance in the word Christos or Mashiyach that would be equivalent to special 'capitalization'

You are the one playing word games demanding I supply a plural for resurrection when the CONTEXT creates one.

What's next? When you say things like the capital C in Christ or the all caps in LORD are part of the text and not added for significance by translators..Do you believe the chapters and verse divisions are also part of the original text?

 

[Ashua]

Corinthians 15:35-58 (New King James Version)

A Singular Escatly where does this say anything about more than one resurrection ?

Singular? More than one resurrection? No you don't.

I posted the Revelation verse which proves there are two resurrections and all you could do was qualify the topic by saying a BODILY resurrection and THAT is what those verses, as well as the second part addresses. It shows the resurrection includes new BODIES as well. The numbers game you are playing was addressed in Revelation. The rest of the dead shall not live again UNTIL the thousand years are up and blesses are those who take part in the FIRST resurrection that the SECOND death has no power on them.

I also like how you called the one verse singular. Read the context of it. It says that resurrection will include a state of incorruption. So if the damned are raised as part of that resurrection, does that mean they are also given am incorrupt status? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

[Hitch]

[QUOTE=Ashua;492792]What is He like? How shall be appear to us as He is? How does the Bible describe this likeness of His which will be imputed to us at the second coming?






(His resurrected body still bore the marks of the Cross)



Both beautiful and frightening.





Lk 24:36-43 (NIV)



He was glorified in the transfiguration and in Revelation. We will also be glorified.[/QUOTE]
I dont get your point.

I bolded everything that came through I dont know what the trouble is. Not that it makes any difference , What is your point?

 

[Hitch]

Singular? More than one resurrection? No you don't.

I posted the Revelation verse which proves there are two resurrections and all you could do was qualify the topic by saying a BODILY resurrection and THAT is what those verses, as well as the second part addresses. It shows the resurrection includes new BODIES as well. The numbers game you are playing was addressed in Revelation. The rest of the dead shall not live again UNTIL the thousand years are up and blesses are those who take part in the FIRST resurrection that the SECOND death has no power on them.

I also like how you called the one verse singular. Read the context of it. It says that resurrection will include a state of incorruption. So if the damned are raised as part of that resurrection, does that mean they are also given am incorrupt status? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Hmmm I see one resurrection here, in one 'hour' . Where is your needed time break ? You need a thousand years give or take right?



But just before Jesus said the above he said;

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Tell me if you think this refers to bodily resurrection . What does 'passed from death unto life' mean ' ?

Why does this passage actually come first in John book ?

And just a little later Jesus told us when the resurrection would take place;

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

But when Paul says these people have been raised upto heavenly places in Christ I reckon hes not speaking of the body, but of passing from death in sin to life in the Spirit.

Paul says something similar here;

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Ye are risen with him, did Paul have readers in heaven or is he speaking of a spirtual reality ?

I'll wager your timing doesnt jibe. Mine does.
And I dont know about you but I think 39,40 are speaking of bodily resurrection .

 

[Alabaster]

Revelation 20:5-6 NLT
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

If there is only one resurrection, why does John say, 'first'? Next....


Revelation 20:12-13 NLT
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

 

[Hitch]

Revelation 20:5-6 NLT
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

If there is only one resurrection, why does John say, 'first'? Next....


Revelation 20:12-13 NLT
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

John said 'first' because that how he remembered Jesus explaining it; But more importantly its a matter of priority, spiritual resurrection is required bodily resurrection is not.


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (spiritual Any one who has everlasting life is free of the Second Death ) )
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (bodily)

(notes added)