Resurrections A Challnege For futurists

[Alabaster]

John said 'first' because that how he remembered Jesus explaining it;

Nice try.

 

[Ashua]

[QUOTE=Ashua;492792]What is He like? How shall be appear to us as He is? How does the Bible describe this likeness of His which will be imputed to us at the second coming?






(His resurrected body still bore the marks of the Cross)



Both beautiful and frightening.





Lk 24:36-43 (NIV)



He was glorified in the transfiguration and in Revelation. We will also be glorified.[/QUOTE]
I dont get your point.

I bolded everything that came through I dont know what the trouble is. Not that it makes any difference , What is your point?

The point of that is that the "new body" we will have at the resurrection will be a body indeed. It wont be the same body we have now or the bodies of dust that lie in the grave ---but a second body.

 

[Ashua]

John said 'first' because that how he remembered Jesus explaining it;


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (spiritual Any one who has everlasting life is free of the Second Death ) )
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (bodily)

(notes added)

I like this:

8Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We have two separate resurrections here. One to life and one to damnation.

Revelation, once again says that those who take part in the FIRST resurrection will reign with Christ a thousand years, while the rest of the dead REMAIN in the grave until the thousand years is up.

I really don't know how to even approach this anymore. It is so terribly simple and somehow you have this new idea that there is only one resurrection. Who taught you this?

 

[Hitch]

I like this:



We have two separate resurrections here. One to life and one to damnation.

in one 'hour' an hour in which all who are in the graves hear and come forth LOL

Revelation, once again says that those who take part in the FIRST resurrection will reign with Christ a thousand years, while the rest of the dead REMAIN in the grave until the thousand years is up.

Do believers reign today? Do passed on believers sit with Christ or are they lost to the cause? Do the evil have any influence after they die physically?

I really don't know how to even approach this anymore. It is so terribly simple and somehow you have this new idea

LMBO

that there is only one resurrection. Who taught you this?

Jesus Christ.

Frankly I dont think you're capable , but I could be wrong.

 

[Hitch]

The point of that is that the "new body" we will have at the resurrection will be a body indeed. It wont be the same body we have now or the bodies of dust that lie in the grave ---but a second body.

Well that is unlikely. Jesus was raised in the same body that died, as so every one who was raised in scripture. For a guy hung up on resurrection you stray far from the point.

At any rate none of that adds up to multiple resurrections.

 

[Hitch]

Nice try.

Yeah ,just as it appears in scripture.

 

[Hitch]

Re: Resurrections A Challnege For futurists

Originally Posted by Ashua
Singular? More than one resurrection? No you don't.

I posted the Revelation verse which proves there are two resurrections and all you could do was qualify the topic by saying a BODILY resurrection and THAT is what those verses, as well as the second part addresses. It shows the resurrection includes new BODIES as well. The numbers game you are playing was addressed in Revelation. The rest of the dead shall not live again UNTIL the thousand years are up and blesses are those who take part in the FIRST resurrection that the SECOND death has no power on them.

I also like how you called the one verse singular. Read the context of it. It says that resurrection will include a state of incorruption. So if the damned are raised as part of that resurrection, does that mean they are also given am incorrupt status? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.




27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Hmmm I see one resurrection here, in one 'hour' . Where is your needed time break ? You need a thousand years give or take right?



But just before Jesus said the above he said;


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.




Tell me if you think this refers to bodily resurrection . What does 'passed from death unto life' mean ' ?

Why does this passage actually come first in John book ?

And just a little later Jesus told us when the resurrection would take place;


39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

But when Paul says these people have been raised upto heavenly places in Christ I reckon hes not speaking of the body, but of passing from death in sin to life in the Spirit.

Paul says something similar here;

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Ye are risen with him, did Paul have readers in heaven or is he speaking of a spirtual reality ?




I'll wager your timing doesnt jibe. Mine does.
And I dont know about you but I think 39,40 are speaking of bodily resurrection
​

 

[Alabaster]

Yeah ,just as it appears in scripture.

It doesn't say that everyone, righteous and wicked will be resurrected at the exact same time. That is an overview teaching that all will come out of their graves to their respective destinies. From the rest of scripture we know that the details are that the righteous have one appointment with resurrection while the wicked have theirs at the end of all things.

You have to take the whole scripture into consideration. You cannot build a doctrine or a refutation on one verse. That verse is not distinct---it is a general statement only.

 

[Hitch]

It doesn't say that everyone, righteous and wicked will be resurrected at the exact same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

That is san overview teaching that all will come out of their graves to their respective destinies. From the rest of scripture we know that the details are that the righteous have one appointment with resurrection while the wicked have theirs at the end of all things.

LOL You almost said last day

You have to take the whole scripture into consideration. You cannot build a doctrine or a refutation on one verse. That verse is not distinct---it is a general statement only.

LOL You keep with the whole of scripture bit and in reality you have nothing but your peculiar interpretation of a single line in the most obscure book of the canon , a passage describing a vision. And with that bulwark you deny the plainest statements our Lord uttered;

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Tell me again why these are not difintive statements???

But thats not enough ,there more teaching from John setting the resurrection at the last day, for mankind;

1. John 11:24
   Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
   John 11:23-25 (in Context) John 11 (Whole Chapter)
2. John 12:48
   He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Oh yeah thats Jesus talking so it has nothing to do with modern futurism.

 

[Ashua]

in one 'hour' an hour in which all who are in the graves hear and come forth LOL Do believers reign today? Do passed on believers sit with Christ or are they lost to the cause? Do the evil have any influence after they die physically? LMBO

Now you are twisting the words to be inclusive of everyone who is dead. It says the dead in general will hear and those who DO hear will be given life. It does not say everyone who is dead in their graves will hear and be restored to life, both righteous and wicked. It just says that the dead will hear.

I could say:

The Christians on this forum believe that the Bible speaks of two separate resurrections. --and I would be right.-- Now, obviously one here does not. But I never said "every Christian here believes in two separate resurrections" Only that some representation of that type here believes that.

I could say "America is a country of capitalists"
Notice how not everyone here believes in capitalism? We have quite a few socialists and communists and so on within the category of America; as those who will be resurrected on the first end of the thousand years will be within the category of the dead and also the unjust dead will take part in a later resurrection.

When Israel was in exile in Babylon... There were I believe 3 different waves of exile that took place. Not one big mass exile. You could have said that the Jews were exiled before the second and third wave. Stop trying to bend Scriptures by adding to them. It NEVER said "ALL OF THE DEAD". The LORD warns you not to add or diminish from His Word.

Frankly I dont think you're capable , but I could be wrong.

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. -Acts 26:28

Jesus Christ apparently wasn't able to get through to everyone at his first coming either.

Oh Hey! What do you know. Totally unintentional. How many times does the lexicon say comings in plural? I guess Jesus only came once and the Book Of Revelation and the "rapture" (If there is such a thing I have not really given sufficient consideration to the argument of) and satan is bound in hell and the New Jerusalem is established and the believers are ruling the nations with Christ now. Last but certainly not least, the dead have also been resurrected and this must all be a past event. Must be only ONE coming of Christ sense the Bible never expressly uses the word "comings". That is exactly what you based your theory around. The absence of the plural of the word "resurrection". Now I am applying that argument to the word coming. Your argument, your logic. Not mine. I have a sneaking suspicion that is what you believe too.

 

[jasoncran]

so my grandparents when they get a body agian will have alzheimers again, hitch?

 

[Hitch]

so my grandparents when they get a body agian will have alzheimers again, hitch?

Depends on how feeble your god is Jason. As I recall Jesus said God could raise up children of Abe from stones. That God can render corruptible into incorruptible.
The argument can be made that no one as yet whos body had disintegrated has been raised. We also know that deterioration begins before the corpse has cooled. So it becomes a matter of degree. I dont pretend to know or understand the mechanism ,as I said, by the pattern of revelation we know all who have been raised were raised in the body that died.
The tomb was empty. Bodily resurrection by definition requires a formerly dead body to be quickened. This is what our pattern ,Jesus , recieved. Its obvious that somehow the problems associted with maiming, disease and disintegration will be taken care of, but I dont know of any specifics in that regard in scripture, excepting the pattern, so I dont think its important.

 

[Hitch]

Now you are twisting the words to be inclusive of everyone who is dead. It says the dead in general will hear and those who DO hear will be given life. It does not say everyone who is dead in their graves will hear and be restored to life, both righteous and wicked. It just says that the dead will hear.

LOL You are aware that Christ returns to raise the dead and render final judgement arent you? Or is that yet another 'new' doctrine you're ignorant of?

I could say:

The Christians on this forum believe that the Bible speaks of two separate resurrections. --and I would be right.-- Now, obviously one here does not. But I never said "every Christian here believes in two separate resurrections" Only that some representation of that type here believes that.

I could say "America is a country of capitalists"
Notice how not everyone here believes in capitalism? We have quite a few socialists and communists and so on within the category of America; as those who will be resurrected on the first end of the thousand years will be within the category of the dead and also the unjust dead will take part in a later resurrection.

When Israel was in exile in Babylon... There were I believe 3 different waves of exile that took place. Not one big mass exile. You could have said that the Jews were exiled before the second and third wave. Stop trying to bend Scriptures by adding to them. It NEVER said "ALL OF THE DEAD". The LORD warns you not to add or diminish from His Word.

LOL Its says all who are in the graves ,,, dead people are in graves , Jr Im not adding a thousand year GAP


28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Between the blue and the red you are.

Jesus Christ apparently wasn't able to get through to everyone at his first coming either.

Oh Hey! What do you know. Totally unintentional. How many times does the lexicon say comings in plural? I guess Jesus only came once and the Book Of Revelation and the "rapture" (If there is such a thing I have not really given sufficient consideration to the argument of) and satan is bound in hell and the New Jerusalem is established and the believers are ruling the nations with Christ now.

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Did you mean this new Jerusalem ?

Last but certainly not least, the dead have also been resurrected and this must all be a past event.

Well since you've decided to go on here what you need to do is extact such evidence as you can from my posts that says this, or be man enough to admit you've blundered again, but you and I both already know you;re not man enough to do iether , dont we ?

Must be only ONE coming of Christ sense the Bible never expressly uses the word "comings". That is exactly what you based your theory around. The absence of the plural of the word "resurrection".

Actually jr the other day, #10, I posted exactly what that fact proves, you lose again

Now I am applying that argument to the word coming. Your argument, your logic. Not mine. I have a sneaking suspicion that is what you believe too.

Now how about you answer # 47?

 

[Alabaster]

Billions of people will be in their graves at the time of Judgment after the Millennium. they will be raised, of course, but the righteous will have been raised long before, received their rewards and will have been reigning with Jesus for a millennium at least up to that point.

 

[Hitch]

Billions of people will be in their graves at the time of Judgment after the Millennium. they will be raised, of course, but the righteous will have been raised long before, received their rewards and will have been reigning with Jesus for a millennium at least up to that point.

So that must be why Jesus said;

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


But what is it you have against ol Laz?

Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.



LOL

 

[Alabaster]

So that must be why Jesus said;

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


LOL

That's right. All of His own will be raised on the last day designated for the righteous.

 

[Hitch]

That's right. All of His own will be raised on the last day designated for the righteous.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The righteous huh? You must have a different definition of righteous.

 

[Alabaster]

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The righteous huh? You must have a differnt definition of righteous.

That is Judgment Day. The righteous do not stand in that Judgment.

 

[Hitch]

That is Judgment Day. The righteous do not stand in that Judgment.

22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


LOL Judgement Day , the last day, the day of the resurrection . Just like the Creed says;

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

 

[Alabaster]

22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


LOL Judgement Day , the last day, the day of the resurrection . Just like the Creed says;

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

The day that the righteous rise is not Judgment Day. LOL!