Rethinking the Biblical Definition of the Triune Nature of God

[JohnD]

I posted this in another thread and inadvertently derailed the discussion with it. This was purely unintentional. But I thought these points were too important to not delve into them in a thread of their own.

I am thoroughly Trinitarian.

But the two flaws I could find in doctrines of Trinitarian theology is that

1. it built a lot of the doctrine on the say so of men (the so called apostles' creed for example is wrong in its first claim... which I will explain...)

2. it did not go far enough into biblical scrutiny of the Triune nature of the one God

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

Since the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning... the Father of Adam is Jesus (preincarnate).

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


These passages prove many things.

God the Word was the lone Creator in the beginning.

His name is YHVH (Isaiah 44:24 LORD = YHVH in Hebrew).

He is the Father of creation (which answers the questions raised about "everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6)

The Apostle's creed begins in error "I believe in God the Father Creator of Heaven and Earth..." It was God the Son who created all things created in the beginning not God the Father....

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The language here is misused by the cultists (JW's in particular) to make it sound as though the Father created the worlds with Jesus as a tool of his... {I scratch my head at that too} ...when one is desperate as JW's are who have the truth siding against them, you have to resort to all sorts of subterfuge. The language here simply states that the one in the Godhead who did all the creating was the Word (who became the Son in the incarnation).



This same chapter dispels the Eternal Son doctrine...


Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


The underlined establishes a progression from what was not to what will be. And we look back on it as it came to be.


Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):


John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.


We tend to trip over the limitations of human language. When teaching a study on the Trinity I use the following clinical basis:


God is three equal individuals


A. God the Authority (who we call the Heavenly Father who is always described as the ultimate authority and the one to whom all submit including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit).


B. God the Word (simple, the Bible already names him)


c. God the Author (2 Peter 1:20-21 says he authored the Bible and in that sense he is the Father of the Bible / inspiration of the prophets and revealing of Jesus Christ to the world)


All three are unique, all three are Spirit, all three are Holy, all three are Fathers... so you see how the uniformed trip over terms used to describe each and distinguish them at the same time.


The Bible also establishes the unique distinction of each for example, Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of the Father (John 1:14) if that same Father is the Father of Adam (Luke 3:38) or any of the other sons of God passages in Genesis 6 and in Job 1,2, and 38.


We are children of the Father of Jesus by adoption.



Romans 8:15 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Another aspect about the incarnation of Jesus is that he had to submit to his Father as his God.



Hebrews 10:5-7 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Matthew 27:46 (KJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


In the incarnation he had to be like us in the he had to submit to a God who is not himself even though in his Spirit he is God the Word equal to God the Father (Philippians 2:5 / John 5:18).


Oh, and the name YHVH (LORD / Jehovah / Yahweh) is like a surname (last name)...



Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


THE name of
THE Father and of
THE Son and of

THE Holy Spirit


YHVH


And Jesus' Hebrew name is YHVH Shua YHVH Saves (Yehoshua shortened to Yeshua in Greek Iesous in latin Jesous in ENlgish Jesus)


Another thing that trips people up sometimes is that each individual in the Godhead can and does speak for the Godhead in individual language.



I AM God there is no other...


Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


It is a manner of speaking. The Supreme Chancellor in Star Wars said "I am the Senate!" Same manner of speaking.

 

[JohnD]

I can appreciate how points in this thread can set off "cult alert" warnings in one's mind. Several points sound like what the cults say, but rather than leading to their other than Trinitarian theologies, I do the opposite and show how these points actually bolster Trinitarian doctrine and establish a Bible base for truth rather than some extra-biblical creed (which as I pointed out in the post above is actually in error). I assure you all that I am Trinitarian in theology and doctrine because it is biblical. Three coexisting, co-eternal, coequal individuals of Spirit are the one God.

1 John 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—


Recap of John 1:1-2, but notice the additional information that the Word (of Life) is an eternal life (or God) which was with (God) the Father...

John 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.


The cults try to depersonalize the Word even though it clearly states the Word is God. Setting aside the article argument of the Jehovah's Witnesses who got it from the Christadelphians... easily answered in John 20:17 which if their missing article mumbo jumbo defrocked the Word of deity then it must defrock God the Father too.


1 John 1:1-2 puts person hood right back into the preincarnate Jesus... which simply reading to John 1:14 would have done in the first place.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Bible also establishes the unique distinction of each for example, Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of the Father (John 1:14) if that same Father is the Father of Adam (Luke 3:38) or any of the other sons of God passages in Genesis 6 and in Job 1,2, and 38.

I think your taking a very simple concept of "Trinity" a Greek word never but by Theophilus of Antioch who did use the Word trias there is absoultly no concept of a triune God in the bible anywhere, and if God was Triune then It would have been mentioned several times.

Trinity is a man made doctrine. It's not a bible Doctrine. Even the Eternal Godhead with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is man made as the couple places mentioned and translated Godhead includes us in the Godhead and the body. Trinity does not included man in the family of God or Godhead bodily.

Then you want to do your own study John? To prove this doctrine? That was never done and a Modelist position to prove something in scripture that can't be proved. It's not good enough. Modelist do this, they try to prove it through scripture, trinity never did.

The Catholic Church was the first Church to incorporate the doctrine. That was long before Baptist came around and adopted it. Why baptist would adopt a Catholic adopted doctrine is beyond me...

The fight was what the Catholic Church rejected coming out of Alexandria ( BAD SCHOOL OF gods) and the original concept of trinity that Jesus was a demi part of God. That was rejected and not accepted.

The problem was that to make Jesus God as scripture calls him then you had to believe in Polytheism, and that was not going to wash either. So, they came up with the Trinity concept. All 3 bare their own record and witness, all 3 are God, but ................... There is one God.

It's very simple John, why go complicate it? There are 3 that are 1.

The problem is pride........ because in every trinity doctrine.......... The first being the Catholic Stated long ago it is a mystery of the Christian faith. It's a mystery John!!! How there can be 3 Gods but really there is one God. The methodist say it's a puzzle, the Baptist tell us the finite man cannot understand it and the creed covers itself with the mystery clause.

It's only a modelist that comes in trying to prove something by scriptures and you going to run into a mess of contradictions real quick.

There are 3 that are 1. Believe it by faith or don't but trying to explain it? When Paul tells us that it's a mystery that husband and wife are one flesh?

Three coexisting, co-eternal, coequal individuals of Spirit are the one God.

You picked that coequal up from somewhere.................. most say there is a 1st, 2nd and 3rd person in the Godhead. In that order, that would be some variation of the doctrine.

Oneness:

That would be 1 are 3, not 3 are 1

Mike.

 

[teddy trueblood]

“Recap of John 1:1-2, but notice the additional information that the Word (of Life) is an eternal life (or God) which was with (God) the Father...

“John 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.


“The cults try to depersonalize the Word even though it clearly states the Word is God. Setting aside the article argument of the Jehovah's Witnesses who got it from the Christadelphians... easily answered in John 20:17 which if their missing article mumbo jumbo defrocked the Word of deity then it must defrock God the Father too.â€

I certainly don’t “try to depersonalize the Word†(ho Logos) of John 1:1. But I have discovered that he is not called ‘God’ in John 1:1c.

The word in question at John 1:1c is θεος (theos in English letters). Notice that this form of the word ends in ‘s.’ Theos can be used to mean ‘God’ or ‘god.’ Also notice that, as used in John 1:1c, theos stands alone. That is, it has no modifiers such as “almighty theos,†or “theos of Israel, or “theos to me,†etc.

Not only do such modifiers cause the use of the definite article (‘the’ in English) to be used irregularly, but theos at John 1:1c does not use them either.

The next point is that when John (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke also) clearly meant “God†when writing theos, he always used the definite article (‘the’ in English - ho in Greek): ho theos. (You can tell that o in NT Greek is pronounced ‘ho’ if it has a tiny c-shaped mark above it - ὁ.)

You can test this ho theos use means ‘God’ in John’s writings yourself with a good interlinear NT and concordance.

John - 17 total - 2 without article refer to Jesus; 1 w/o article has modifier (‘God of you’); 14 with article refer to God.

First John - 13 total - All 13 use the article and refer to God.

Rev. - 20 total - 1 without article refers to God (but has modifier: “God to youâ€); remaining 19 with article and refer to God.

So out of 50 uses of theos, 46 use the article and refer to God. The only exceptions are the 2 in modern NT texts which clearly refer to the Word (the Son of God) and 2 which refer to God without the article, but have prepositional modifiers. (Complete list available on request.)

Numerous trinitarian sources admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods (partial list available on request).

Not only does John 20:17 use theon (instead of theos), but it also has a prepositional modifier.

 

[JohnD]

Umm...

John 1:1 does refer to the Word as God. Former Watchtower Circuit Overseer Peter Barnes who started Equipers apologetics ministry once he came to faith in the true Christ said that the Bible states that there are only two kinds of gods in the Bible:

1. True God
2. false god

Are you teddy trueblood calling the preincarnate Christ a false god?

Because the Greek grammar of John 1:1 is the noun kai noun the word was with the god and god was the word in which the article is not necessary and is often left out to show the nouns are linked or of the same kind.

Furthermore the Bible clearing indicates that Jesus created all things created in the beginning...

John 1:3 (NASB95)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


Colossians 1:16 (NASB95)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.


Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,



here it not only says twice that he did it alone but calls him YHVH...


Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth.


Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning Jesus preincarnate created the heavens and the earth.


Genesis 1:1 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[teddy trueblood]

“John 1:1 does refer to the Word as God. Former Watchtower Circuit Overseer
Peter Barnes who started Equipers apologetics ministry once he came to faith in
the true Christ said that the Bible states that there are only two kinds of gods
in the Bible:

“1. True God
“2. false god

“Are you teddy
trueblood calling the preincarnate Christ a false god?â€

Of course not!

Please carefully read the last 2 paragraphs of my last post.

If you have any real information concerning my research of John 1:1c; theos; and “a godâ€/“gods,†please give it. I want only the truth of John 1:1c

 

[Brother Mike]

Furthermore the Bible clearing indicates that Jesus created all things created in the beginning...

John 1:3 (NASB95)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Only in bibles that support some Oneness doctrine.......................... This is not the original Trinity Creed. It's making the 2nd person the 1st person and you can only have one creator. The Father God.

This is borderline Modelist thinking, or even worse a hint of oneness.

Let us examine John, and why bring up JW's??? That does not even make sense to even mention them in a bible discussion. Your taking what they believe wrong to make a point? Let's get serious here.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

We have a concept here John is trying to portray. The word, the Word with, the word was and same as God, back to with God at the beginning.

Psa_138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

We know the Word is not the spiritual and physical Jesus. We know this because Jesus both mentioned His word and His Father's word, so we don't just slam the son of God into some spiritual concept of a Word.

His name means the Word though.

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In the last days, the only word coming is that spoken by his Son. Jesus the son of God. Once again this is the Word that was sent, it came through Jesus, His name means the Word, but Jesus is not some word part of the Father. That would be Modelist thinking, not trinity thinking.

God sent the Word, the Word was His son coming to give the Word in the last days. We don't boil the Son of God down into some strange Word concept. He is a person, Not some part of a God machine called the Word.

Jesus created all things?

No, the KJV messed this up trying to manipulate the scripture to prove some concept of Trinity. The scribes of the KJV believed in only ONE GOD and a concept of Trinity so they doctored some Greek words but it ended up being oneness which has yet to be invented until 1914. The oneness uses the KJV screwed up scriptures to prove their point is right over the Trinity Concept. Know your history!!!

Jesus is made creator in 2 scriptures in the KJV............... The 3rd they missed it and gave a scripture contradiction.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by (DIA) him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (DIA) him, and for him:

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2 scriptures make Jesus the creator, One scriptures makes His Father creating everything because of Jesus and for Jesus. Everything the Father did, was through and because of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus. The problem is how the KJV translated one Greek Word. (DIA)

DIA= By

Strongs:
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;

DIA is something that has to go through something else. By reason of, because of, for this purpose........ so on.

The YLT: translates it correctly.......

Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

all things had to got through Jesus, because of Jesus for Jesus. This was the act of the Father.

DIA- Thayer..........
2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this account

This puts all 3 scriptures back in line with Hebrews that God the father made everything for his son and through his son. Making him heir of all things.

I'll let you figure out the Word was made flesh part. remember to keep your understanding of the word making thing consistant and you will get it.

right now your a modelist as this does not sound like Trinity....... preincarnate???? That is oneness talking there......

Mike.

 

[reba]

closed for moderator review.

 

[Sparkey]

The age-old argument about the nature of God is going to be very difficult to resolve by us for all men. Men have discussed this at length elsewhere over the course of of the centuries. Modelists and those that support variations of Oneness may reply as may those who subscribe to the several "variations" of Trinitarian beliefs. Seems to me that this subject belongs in the Apologetics and Theology forum.

I'm moving the thread so that the conversational flow may continue. Please be aware that even in Ye Old, all members are directed to avoid unwanted spiritual advice and to treat each other with respect. For instance, telling me that I am a [insert your term here] is unwanted spiritual advice, right? How is somebody other than me a greater expert on my beliefs than me? Just saying.

 

[Free]

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

This is not correct. There is only one Father mentioned in Scripture and it is not the pre-incarnate Christ. Jesus is never referred to as the Father, or a Father, but only the Son.

Since the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning... the Father of Adam is Jesus (preincarnate).

Nothing you post shows either points of these to be the case.

The Apostle's creed begins in error "I believe in God the Father Creator of Heaven and Earth..." It was God the Son who created all things created in the beginning not God the Father....

The Creed is quite correct in it's statement.

Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):

Please provide Scriptural support that Jesus was "A Father".

The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.

No, that is not what John 1:14 says.

There really is too much that is not quite right in your post that I don't have the time to address at the moment.

 

[Butch5]

I posted this in another thread and inadvertently derailed the discussion with it. This was purely unintentional. But I thought these points were too important to not delve into them in a thread of their own.

I am thoroughly Trinitarian.

But the two flaws I could find in doctrines of Trinitarian theology is that

1. it built a lot of the doctrine on the say so of men (the so called apostles' creed for example is wrong in its first claim... which I will explain...)

2. it did not go far enough into biblical scrutiny of the Triune nature of the one God

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

Since the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning... the Father of Adam is Jesus (preincarnate).

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


These passages prove many things.

God the Word was the lone Creator in the beginning.

His name is YHVH (Isaiah 44:24 LORD = YHVH in Hebrew).

He is the Father of creation (which answers the questions raised about "everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6)

The Apostle's creed begins in error "I believe in God the Father Creator of Heaven and Earth..." It was God the Son who created all things created in the beginning not God the Father....

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The language here is misused by the cultists (JW's in particular) to make it sound as though the Father created the worlds with Jesus as a tool of his... {I scratch my head at that too} ...when one is desperate as JW's are who have the truth siding against them, you have to resort to all sorts of subterfuge. The language here simply states that the one in the Godhead who did all the creating was the Word (who became the Son in the incarnation).



This same chapter dispels the Eternal Son doctrine...


Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


The underlined establishes a progression from what was not to what will be. And we look back on it as it came to be.


Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):


John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.


We tend to trip over the limitations of human language. When teaching a study on the Trinity I use the following clinical basis:


God is three equal individuals


A. God the Authority (who we call the Heavenly Father who is always described as the ultimate authority and the one to whom all submit including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit).


B. God the Word (simple, the Bible already names him)


c. God the Author (2 Peter 1:20-21 says he authored the Bible and in that sense he is the Father of the Bible / inspiration of the prophets and revealing of Jesus Christ to the world)


All three are unique, all three are Spirit, all three are Holy, all three are Fathers... so you see how the uniformed trip over terms used to describe each and distinguish them at the same time.


The Bible also establishes the unique distinction of each for example, Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of the Father (John 1:14) if that same Father is the Father of Adam (Luke 3:38) or any of the other sons of God passages in Genesis 6 and in Job 1,2, and 38.


We are children of the Father of Jesus by adoption.



Romans 8:15 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Another aspect about the incarnation of Jesus is that he had to submit to his Father as his God.



Hebrews 10:5-7 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Matthew 27:46 (KJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


In the incarnation he had to be like us in the he had to submit to a God who is not himself even though in his Spirit he is God the Word equal to God the Father (Philippians 2:5 / John 5:18).


Oh, and the name YHVH (LORD / Jehovah / Yahweh) is like a surname (last name)...



Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


THE name of
THE Father and of
THE Son and of

THE Holy Spirit


YHVH


And Jesus' Hebrew name is YHVH Shua YHVH Saves (Yehoshua shortened to Yeshua in Greek Iesous in latin Jesous in ENlgish Jesus)


Another thing that trips people up sometimes is that each individual in the Godhead can and does speak for the Godhead in individual language.



I AM God there is no other...


Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


It is a manner of speaking. The Supreme Chancellor in Star Wars said "I am the Senate!" Same manner of speaking.

Hi John D,

The first question I would ask, for clarification is, Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one and the same? You said,

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

 

[JLB]

23 And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


In the context of this scripture, who is the scripture referring to?


31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


In the context of this scripture, who is the scripture referring to?

Who are the ones that this scripture defines.


JLB

 

[JohnD]

I posted this in another thread and inadvertently derailed the discussion with it. This was purely unintentional. But I thought these points were too important to not delve into them in a thread of their own.

I am thoroughly Trinitarian.

But the two flaws I could find in doctrines of Trinitarian theology is that

1. it built a lot of the doctrine on the say so of men (the so called apostles' creed for example is wrong in its first claim... which I will explain...)

2. it did not go far enough into biblical scrutiny of the Triune nature of the one God

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

Since the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning... the Father of Adam is Jesus (preincarnate).

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


These passages prove many things.

God the Word was the lone Creator in the beginning.

His name is YHVH (Isaiah 44:24 LORD = YHVH in Hebrew).

He is the Father of creation (which answers the questions raised about "everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6)

The Apostle's creed begins in error "I believe in God the Father Creator of Heaven and Earth..." It was God the Son who created all things created in the beginning not God the Father....

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The language here is misused by the cultists (JW's in particular) to make it sound as though the Father created the worlds with Jesus as a tool of his... {I scratch my head at that too} ...when one is desperate as JW's are who have the truth siding against them, you have to resort to all sorts of subterfuge. The language here simply states that the one in the Godhead who did all the creating was the Word (who became the Son in the incarnation).



This same chapter dispels the Eternal Son doctrine...


Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


The underlined establishes a progression from what was not to what will be. And we look back on it as it came to be.


Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):


John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.


We tend to trip over the limitations of human language. When teaching a study on the Trinity I use the following clinical basis:


God is three equal individuals


A. God the Authority (who we call the Heavenly Father who is always described as the ultimate authority and the one to whom all submit including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit).


B. God the Word (simple, the Bible already names him)


c. God the Author (2 Peter 1:20-21 says he authored the Bible and in that sense he is the Father of the Bible / inspiration of the prophets and revealing of Jesus Christ to the world)


All three are unique, all three are Spirit, all three are Holy, all three are Fathers... so you see how the uniformed trip over terms used to describe each and distinguish them at the same time.


The Bible also establishes the unique distinction of each for example, Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of the Father (John 1:14) if that same Father is the Father of Adam (Luke 3:38) or any of the other sons of God passages in Genesis 6 and in Job 1,2, and 38.


We are children of the Father of Jesus by adoption.



Romans 8:15 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Another aspect about the incarnation of Jesus is that he had to submit to his Father as his God.



Hebrews 10:5-7 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Matthew 27:46 (KJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


In the incarnation he had to be like us in the he had to submit to a God who is not himself even though in his Spirit he is God the Word equal to God the Father (Philippians 2:5 / John 5:18).


Oh, and the name YHVH (LORD / Jehovah / Yahweh) is like a surname (last name)...



Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


THE name of
THE Father and of
THE Son and of

THE Holy Spirit


YHVH


And Jesus' Hebrew name is YHVH Shua YHVH Saves (Yehoshua shortened to Yeshua in Greek Iesous in latin Jesous in ENlgish Jesus)


Another thing that trips people up sometimes is that each individual in the Godhead can and does speak for the Godhead in individual language.



I AM God there is no other...


Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


It is a manner of speaking. The Supreme Chancellor in Star Wars said "I am the Senate!" Same manner of speaking.

Hi John D,

The first question I would ask, for clarification is, Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one and the same? You said,

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

No.

God the Father (of Jesus) is not our Father except through adoption. Jesus (preincarnate) created all things Colossians 1:13-16 all alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24). The only thing the Father of Jesus created was the body of Jesus (hence he is the Father of Jesus).

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


Jesus preexisted this (as God the Word)... but the distinction between the two is eternal past present future.


It is precisely these kind of terminology entanglements is why I go to the clinical:


The one God is:


Individual A
Individual B
Individual C


A is not B or C
B is not A or C
C is not A or B


Or as I have come to describe:


God the Authority (who we refer to as the Heavenly Father)

God the Word (who we refer to as Jesus)

God the Author (who we refer to as the Holy Spirit)


Trinitarian.



Three unique individuals coequal coexisting all deity = one God.


Triune.

 

[JohnD]

This is not correct. There is only one Father mentioned in Scripture and it is not the pre-incarnate Christ. Jesus is never referred to as the Father, or a Father, but only the Son.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


He is a son to the Heavenly Father (Hebrews 1:5, Hebrews 10:5, John 1:14 which says he is the ONLY get that ONLY begotten of the (Heavenly) Father...) but Jesus (preincarnate is our Creator John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Isaiah 44:24, John1:10, Hebrews 1:2 making him the preincarnate Jesus the Father of creation and to wit the Father of Adam Luke 3:38).

Nothing you post shows either points of these to be the case.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was the son of God (the Word).

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of (God) the Father:

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Adam and the sons mentioned in Genesis 6 and in Job 1 and Job 2 and Job 38 are sons of God the Word the Creator of all things in the beginning.

The Creed is quite correct in it's statement.

Nope as I showed it's not. The Father was present (1 John 1:2) as was the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2) but God the Word created all things created in the beginning (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16) alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24). And again (again and again and again till you "get it") the ONLY O*N*L* Y begotten of the Father (John 1:14) is the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):

Please provide Scriptural support that Jesus was "A Father".

Okay. Once again.

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Jesus was the lone creator (Isaiah 44:24 hence the son Adam was of the Father Jesus preincarnate).

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.

No, that is not what John 1:14 says.

John 1:14 says Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father. Hebrews 1:5 says that makes him his Father.

There really is too much that is not quite right in your post that I don't have the time to address at the moment.

So far you haven't been correct once, so don't worry about it.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus (preincarnate) created all things Colossians 1:13-16 all alone by himself

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Your having a KJV scripture contradiction here. Jesus did not create all things as shown by this scripture. Nothing contradicts and I believe I already explained this. This scripture says it Was God the father who spoke to us in these last days through his Son, whom God has appointed heir of all things and God created all things for and because of His son which he also made the Worlds for his son.

Your missing one Greek Word the KJV could have done a whole lot better Job in keeping consistent with the rest of the scriptures. They translated it "OK" but it's not really what the Word means.

Father= Creator 1st person of the God Head.
Jesus = 2nd person in Godhead. Son, the Vehicle our redeemer used to save the World. Jesus a slave of God, the Saviour.
Holy Spirit = The eternal power by which God creates and does things through the Word. 3rd person in the Godhead.

All give an account and bare record as one, and are one.

I would try it again.

JLB gave a hint to how this works.............

Mike.

 

[JohnD]

It's all biblically Trinitarian, and it's really all so simple once you remove the false examples and false interpretations and false creeds attributed to Apostles who never heard of them...

It is as easy to understand as the family of Adam when there was Adam, Eve, and Abel the three were one (family) one (race) one (surname "adam" or "man") yet they were three individuals...

This is NOT to say God is a family. It is merely one example of a compound oneness or compound unity many others of which I could use like a corporation of three, etc. Echad in the Shma (Deuteronomy 6:4) can mean a compound unity as it does in Genesis 2:24 they two shall be one flesh (echad).

When you learn these aspects of trinitarian theology you will be better equipped to deal with those who get it wrong like the Oneness Pentecostals (modalists and sabellianists) or those who deny the deity of Jesus like the J.W.s. Or the polythesists like the Mormons.

You don't have to buy into the notion that you cannot understand the Trinity (once you learn the uniqueness of each and how only God the Word became the Savior and only God the Authority is the ultimate authority that even the other two in the Godhead submit to and only God the Author inspired the prophets writing or non-writing meaning he wrote the Bible through the prophets... God the Word and God the Authority did not)... These things buttress the doctrine of the Trinity with biblical evidence to support it.

 

[JohnD]

Jesus (preincarnate) created all things Colossians 1:13-16 all alone by himself

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Your having a KJV scripture contradiction here. Jesus did not create all things as shown by this scripture. Nothing contradicts and I believe I already explained this. This scripture says it Was God the father who spoke to us in these last days through his Son, whom God has appointed heir of all things and God created all things for and because of His son which he also made the Worlds for his son.

Your missing one Greek Word the KJV could have done a whole lot better Job in keeping consistent with the rest of the scriptures. They translated it "OK" but it's not really what the Word means.

Father= Creator 1st person of the God Head.
Jesus = 2nd person in Godhead. Son, the Vehicle our redeemer used to save the World. Jesus a slave of God, the Saviour.
Holy Spirit = The eternal power by which God creates and does things through the Word. 3rd person in the Godhead.

All give an account and bare record as one, and are one.

I would try it again.

JLB gave a hint to how this works.............

Mike.

Quote the whole passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB95)
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


I am even using the New American Standard.


Or here the New king James

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NKJV)
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;


Or even the Nearly Inspired Version


Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.


You supply the word Father but all the texts I quote plus the one I did not quote (KJV) all merely say "God"


In the past G O D spoke...



That's potentially all 3 of them.


Right?


This astounds NT believers o find that the Fatherhood of God was not as big a topic in the OT as in the NT.


Anyway... all the Hebrews 1:2 text is saying that through the Son God created all things created.



Take the three Trumps we are familiar with from the tv show the Apprentice. Donald Sr., Ivanka, and Donald Jr.



The Trump family fortune was amassed by Donald Sr. This is How Hebrews 1:2 is speaking about the Godhead and the creation of the worlds.

 

[JohnD]

This is trinitarian doctrine.

I am not even saying anything like open your minds...

Rather I am saying open your Bibles.

It is biblical.

 

[Brother Mike]

In the past G O D spoke...



That's potentially all 3 of them.


Right?

The context is the one Jesus Called his Father, that would be God who had the son. So even though I did supply the Word God (Father) it was the son who spoke to us in the last days by which God (Father made all things for and made heir of everything God (Father) made.

MSG: (Not that this is a great bible mind you)
Heb 1:2 Recently he spoke to us directly through his Son. By his Son, God created the world in the beginning, and it will all belong to the Son at the end.

Your trying to remake the Trinity Doctrine and it's already been remade several times by several denominations. I am not so sure we need yet another version of it. I'll stick to the original though and oldest formed version.

If you change it then it's no longer a Trinity Doctrine, because the Trinity Doctrine is a man concept, not a Word concept. Man came up with the idea, the language, the whole concept.

Do a study of the History of the Doctrine itself. How Rome at one time was against it, then adopted it, was the first Church to adopt it. What they rejected and kept. How it crept into the Protestant doctrines.

It's a fascinating study.

You supply the word Father but all the texts I quote plus the one I did not quote (KJV) all merely say "God"


In the past G O D spoke...



That's potentially all 3 of them.

Paul is just referring to One...... Paul never called Jesus God, not once. He always separated them. John Called Jesus the one True God, Thomas called Jesus God, God the father called Jesus God.
The triune concept was not in the bible and the Greek for Triune did not appear until Tertullian use the Greek word for grouping of 3's. He first came up with the concept, which Rome rejected because of His view on Jesus which was way off.

Jesus is not the Creator though. God Made everything for and because of His son, by whom God saved the World our redeemer using His son.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

It was His father that sent him to the cross. The creator who made all things for his son.

Jesus prayed, if it be thy will take the cup from me........ If there be any other way, I am all ears.

The Father never responded, it was the Father who saved mankind by the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That Word "BY" means the same thing Hebrews said......... God made all things for and through his son. Everything God did was for the Son.

By= DIA

A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through

All things done and made were through and because of the Son Jesus. Just like Hebrews tells us.
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Col_1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Everything was made though, because of and for Jesus.

All 3 scriptures line up.

In the past G O D spoke...



That's potentially all 3 of them.

You have to remove that modelist thinking as none of them are the same, each bare their own account, Each is very specific and their own person. It's not just all 3 of them.

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit............ (Though we are missing the scripture on that one, but for Trinity sake, fine)

There are 3 of them. They are not the same persons, do not have the same functions, each their own God.

If that were not the case we would have no mediator between God or men........... Modelist believe we don't have a mediator, along with oneness.

Jesus is does not think like His father, Like the Holy Spirit. That is why there is a mediator.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

God the Father can't do that. He can't understand that, He was never here in the Flesh. Only Jesus can the son.

This is why Jesus is the Mediator between God and man.

So JohnD.................... I understand you would like to figure this out scripturally, but your going to just have to accept that as Husband and wife are one flesh, So are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ONE.

Paul said that was a mystery.

The Trinity Doctrine says it's a mystery.

Methodist say it's a Puzzle.

If you want to solve the mystery, then you have to be labeled a modelist or oneness.

That is just how it is, it's a mystery that we believe by faith.

Be blessed.

Mike.

 

[Butch5]

I posted this in another thread and inadvertently derailed the discussion with it. This was purely unintentional. But I thought these points were too important to not delve into them in a thread of their own.

I am thoroughly Trinitarian.

But the two flaws I could find in doctrines of Trinitarian theology is that

1. it built a lot of the doctrine on the say so of men (the so called apostles' creed for example is wrong in its first claim... which I will explain...)

2. it did not go far enough into biblical scrutiny of the Triune nature of the one God

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

Since the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning... the Father of Adam is Jesus (preincarnate).

Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


These passages prove many things.

God the Word was the lone Creator in the beginning.

His name is YHVH (Isaiah 44:24 LORD = YHVH in Hebrew).

He is the Father of creation (which answers the questions raised about "everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6)

The Apostle's creed begins in error "I believe in God the Father Creator of Heaven and Earth..." It was God the Son who created all things created in the beginning not God the Father....

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The language here is misused by the cultists (JW's in particular) to make it sound as though the Father created the worlds with Jesus as a tool of his... {I scratch my head at that too} ...when one is desperate as JW's are who have the truth siding against them, you have to resort to all sorts of subterfuge. The language here simply states that the one in the Godhead who did all the creating was the Word (who became the Son in the incarnation).



This same chapter dispels the Eternal Son doctrine...


Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


The underlined establishes a progression from what was not to what will be. And we look back on it as it came to be.


Jesus is A Father. He is not THE Father (or put this way, Jesus is not his own Father):


John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


The Creator is the Father of what he creates. In this case the body of Jesus his Father created for him and John 1:14 says this is the only creation of God the Father.


We tend to trip over the limitations of human language. When teaching a study on the Trinity I use the following clinical basis:


God is three equal individuals


A. God the Authority (who we call the Heavenly Father who is always described as the ultimate authority and the one to whom all submit including God the Son and God the Holy Spirit).


B. God the Word (simple, the Bible already names him)


c. God the Author (2 Peter 1:20-21 says he authored the Bible and in that sense he is the Father of the Bible / inspiration of the prophets and revealing of Jesus Christ to the world)


All three are unique, all three are Spirit, all three are Holy, all three are Fathers... so you see how the uniformed trip over terms used to describe each and distinguish them at the same time.


The Bible also establishes the unique distinction of each for example, Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of the Father (John 1:14) if that same Father is the Father of Adam (Luke 3:38) or any of the other sons of God passages in Genesis 6 and in Job 1,2, and 38.


We are children of the Father of Jesus by adoption.



Romans 8:15 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Another aspect about the incarnation of Jesus is that he had to submit to his Father as his God.



Hebrews 10:5-7 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Matthew 27:46 (KJV)
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


In the incarnation he had to be like us in the he had to submit to a God who is not himself even though in his Spirit he is God the Word equal to God the Father (Philippians 2:5 / John 5:18).


Oh, and the name YHVH (LORD / Jehovah / Yahweh) is like a surname (last name)...



Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


THE name of
THE Father and of
THE Son and of

THE Holy Spirit


YHVH


And Jesus' Hebrew name is YHVH Shua YHVH Saves (Yehoshua shortened to Yeshua in Greek Iesous in latin Jesous in ENlgish Jesus)


Another thing that trips people up sometimes is that each individual in the Godhead can and does speak for the Godhead in individual language.



I AM God there is no other...


Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


It is a manner of speaking. The Supreme Chancellor in Star Wars said "I am the Senate!" Same manner of speaking.

Hi John D,

The first question I would ask, for clarification is, Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one and the same? You said,

To begin with, our God and Father (to be perfectly clinical) is Jesus Christ (preincarnate). He is not the Heavenly Father (who is our Father by adoption).

I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

No.

God the Father (of Jesus) is not our Father except through adoption. Jesus (preincarnate) created all things Colossians 1:13-16 all alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24). The only thing the Father of Jesus created was the body of Jesus (hence he is the Father of Jesus).

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


Jesus preexisted this (as God the Word)... but the distinction between the two is eternal past present future.


It is precisely these kind of terminology entanglements is why I go to the clinical:


The one God is:


Individual A
Individual B
Individual C


A is not B or C
B is not A or C
C is not A or B


Or as I have come to describe:


God the Authority (who we refer to as the Heavenly Father)

God the Word (who we refer to as Jesus)

God the Author (who we refer to as the Holy Spirit)


Trinitarian.



Three unique individuals coequal coexisting all deity = one God.


Triune.

Ok, I agree with you to a point. I don't agree with the co-equal part. Jesus said the Father is great than He is. I also disagree that The Father is Jesus' Father because He created His physical body. The early Christians taught that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Jesus said that He had come out of God. It is this coming out of God that I believe makes Him the Son and the Father His Father.