Rev 18 The fall of Babylon

[shad]

What is this chapter talking about?

 

[Ret]

What is this chapter talking about?

Rev 18 The fall of Babylon....
Tells of the ending of the personality of Satan and his family which,
on this earth, began in Gen 2.

 

[Adstar]

Foretells of the destruction of the false religion that had it's origins in Babylon but has survived till the present day in modified form.

The Harlot of Babylon is satans harlot, but once the anti-Christ comes to power he will be finished with his harlot and as the scriptures reveal the beast that the harlot sits upon will hate her and destroy her.

Revelation 17
16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[shad]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Shad,

It is a revisiting of Psalms 1, or the Didache, which was written before Revelation. It is a common theme throughout Scriptures, my friend...

There are two ways. One way leads to eternal life. One leads to eternal separation from God. "Do not return to your old ways - have faith and hope in the promise" is the theme of this section of Revelation. It is not about a specific "religion", but about mankind in general when he strays from the "Way". "Fornication" is seen as a straying from the ways of the Lord, both throughout the OT and here. Read it again with this understanding and it will make more sense. What "reigns over the kings of the world"? Man's sinful desires...By using apocalyptic language, "John" uses another literary genre that reflects the two ways set before all men, a battle between "nations".

Regards

 

[shad]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Shad,

It is a revisiting of Psalms 1, or the Didache, which was written before Revelation. It is a common theme throughout Scriptures, my friend...

There are two ways. One way leads to eternal life. One leads to eternal separation from God. "Do not return to your old ways - have faith and hope in the promise" is the theme of this section of Revelation. It is not about a specific "religion", but about mankind in general when he strays from the "Way". "Fornication" is seen as a straying from the ways of the Lord, both throughout the OT and here. Read it again with this understanding and it will make more sense. What "reigns over the kings of the world"? Man's sinful desires...By using apocalyptic language, "John" uses another literary genre that reflects the two ways set before all men, a battle between "nations".

Regards

Your interpretation is clever way to face your organization's spiritual sins.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What is this chapter talking about?

Rev 18;2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice,saying,Babylon the great is fallen,is fallen and is become the habitation of devils,and the hold of every foul spirit,and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

A falling away-apostasy

 

[whirlwind]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Babylon, to me, is false religion....all religions have some false aspect to them. Catholic, Protestant, Hinda, Islam, Evangelical...you name it as they all have some form of man's doctrine or man's misunderstanding or idolatry. It is part of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The branches have some good fruit and...some bad fruit. God wants us to COME OUT OF HER!

Everything taught by anyone, anywhere and at any time must be documented in His Word or it shouldn't be believed.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

His light, the (voice of the bridegroom), and the bride (His children) will not be part of Babylon the great whore when she is destroyed. It is difficult for those steeped in religion to accept this but Christianity is not a religion...it is a way of life.

 

[researcher]

What is this chapter talking about?

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.


Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
Mat 23:35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luk 11:43 Woe unto you Pharisees!
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God,
I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute;
Luk 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation.

1Th 2:14 ... even as they did of the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

 

[francisdesales]

Your interpretation is clever way to face your organization's spiritual sins.

Rather than your constant accusations, why don't you actually present some sort of explanation? I am not impressed with your holier-than-thou attitude. We all have committed spiritual sins. Even those of the "church of one" who think they are now beyond sin now that they follow themselves...

 

[francisdesales]

Babylon, to me, is false religion....all religions have some false aspect to them. Catholic, Protestant, Hinda, Islam, Evangelical...you name it as they all have some form of man's doctrine or man's misunderstanding or idolatry. It is part of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The branches have some good fruit and...some bad fruit. God wants us to COME OUT OF HER

God wants us to come out of "her", fleshy ways, the ways of the "world" for which John often defines the "Way of Evil". John was not telling us that all religions are false or have false aspects in them. Nowhere does John suggest the idea that we are to cut ourselves off with our bibles tightly clenched in our little fingers condemning all other people in groups who worship God.

Everything taught by anyone, anywhere and at any time must be documented in His Word or it shouldn't be believed.

Please document where you found that in the bible. By your own rule, you have denied your rule... It is a tradition of men that denies the Word of God.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

His light, the (voice of the bridegroom), and the bride (His children) will not be part of Babylon the great whore when she is destroyed. It is difficult for those steeped in religion to accept this but Christianity is not a religion...it is a way of life.

This has nothing to do with a specific organized religion! Men are deceived by sin, individually and as a group. Many are deceived that abortion is OK in all cases. Which "religion" teaches that? None. it is something from the Deceiver, it is sin that tempts us to take a different Way rather than the Lord's Way. In John's words, it is the light vs the darkness. The ways of the world. The flesh vs the spirit. it's all the same. Two ways. One leads to eternal life, which is Christ. The other does not.

John himself belonged to an organized religion. It is ridiculous to pretend that he was writing that people should "come out of her"! "Come out of her" is to run from the fornication of idolatry and worship of self (which the church of one likes to establish as a key tenant of its "faith")

Regards

 

[whirlwind]

Babylon, to me, is false religion....all religions have some false aspect to them. Catholic, Protestant, Hinda, Islam, Evangelical...you name it as they all have some form of man's doctrine or man's misunderstanding or idolatry. It is part of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The branches have some good fruit and...some bad fruit. God wants us to COME OUT OF HER

God wants us to come out of "her", fleshy ways, the ways of the "world" for which John often defines the "Way of Evil". John was not telling us that all religions are false or have false aspects in them. Nowhere does John suggest the idea that we are to cut ourselves off with our bibles tightly clenched in our little fingers condemning all other people in groups who worship God.

So...you think I am condemning anyone that worships God? :crazy :biglaugh First...I didn't realize I was condeming anyone. Second...I am speaking about religion, churchiosity...not groups that worship God.

Everything taught by anyone, anywhere and at any time must be documented in His Word or it shouldn't be believed.

Please document where you found that in the bible. By your own rule, you have denied your rule... It is a tradition of men that denies the Word of God.

How silly that comment is. :naughty Come on Francis. If you compared what you are taught with His Word you would understand you shouldn't worship Mary or call the pope Holy Father. If some of the charismatic sects read His Word with understanding...they would know picking up snakes isn't what God was talking about. If the Episcopalians read His Word they would know you don't install a gay bishop to head the church. If the Baptists read with understanding they would know there was no such thing as a rapture. It goes on and on and on. All man-made traditions or doctrines. Are they bad people? I don't know. How would you feel if you wrote the Bible only to have mankind grind it in the dirt?

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

His light, the (voice of the bridegroom), and the bride (His children) will not be part of Babylon the great whore when she is destroyed. It is difficult for those steeped in religion to accept this but Christianity is not a religion...it is a way of life.

This has nothing to do with a specific organized religion! Men are deceived by sin, individually and as a group. Many are deceived that abortion is OK in all cases. Which "religion" teaches that? None. it is something from the Deceiver, it is sin that tempts us to take a different Way rather than the Lord's Way. In John's words, it is the light vs the darkness. The ways of the world. The flesh vs the spirit. it's all the same. Two ways. One leads to eternal life, which is Christ. The other does not.

Yes, men are deceived but the pulpits are full of the deceivers.

John himself belonged to an organized religion. It is ridiculous to pretend that he was writing that people should "come out of her"! "Come out of her" is to run from the fornication of idolatry and worship of self (which the church of one likes to establish as a key tenant of its "faith")

Regards

John was a Christian. Christianity is not a religion but a way of life. So, if someone is part of a religion, and many do good things , then just be certain to compare what is taught with what He teaches. :amen

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Yes ,Jesus is speaking to christians.He is telling them the same thing he told them in the gospels.Babylon the great is Jerusalem.Jesus is telling the christians in Judea to not be partakers of the sins that will be commited in Judea.And that they should flee..

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

In other words ,when those in Judea are given the mark of the beast,dont plan on taking any trips to Judea.At least not untill they are cast out of the kingdom.

 

[whirlwind]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Yes ,Jesus is speaking to christians.He is telling them the same thing he told them in the gospels.Babylon the great is Jerusalem.Jesus is telling the christians in Judea to not be partakers of the sins that will be commited in Judea.And that they should flee..

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

In other words ,when those in Judea are given the mark of the beast,dont plan on taking any trips to Judea.At least not untill they are cast out of the kingdom.

Babylon is much larger than Jerusalem...it is the world. Those that will take the mark are also...worldwide. Remember, Satan comes to make war with the saints:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is us...Christians!

 

[francisdesales]

So...you think I am condemning anyone that worships God? :crazy :biglaugh First...I didn't realize I was condeming anyone. Second...I am speaking about religion, churchiosity...not groups that worship God.

It appears you are belittling people who go to church, judging them all to be part of "Babylon".

"Churchiosity" is an anachronistic concept. It does not fit in with the OT concepts relating to the use of "Babylon" and "whore" in Sacred Scriptures. These refer to sin and idolatry, not going to church in body only...

Please document where you found that in the bible. By your own rule, you have denied your rule... It is a tradition of men that denies the Word of God.

How silly that comment is. :naughty Come on Francis.

Excuse me for asking for any sort of Scriptural support for your illogical idea. I hadn't realized that logical arguments were termed "silly" where you come from...

If you compared what you are taught with His Word you would understand you shouldn't worship Mary or call the pope Holy Father.

First, Catholics don't worship Mary. Second, Pope MEANS "Father" - of course we call him "holy father"...

If some of the charismatic sects read His Word with understanding...they would know picking up snakes isn't what God was talking about. If the Episcopalians read His Word they would know you don't install a gay bishop to head the church. If the Baptists read with understanding they would know there was no such thing as a rapture. It goes on and on and on.

LOL! The problem is that ALL of these people use the Scriptures to support their heresies, just as you do! That is the exact reason why Christ established an heirarchy within His Church, with the power to bind and loosen. God's Word is revelation. Not proof texting to support any sort of action that the human mind can come up with, like refusing to worship God in communion with other people...

All man-made traditions or doctrines. Are they bad people? I don't know. How would you feel if you wrote the Bible only to have mankind grind it in the dirt?

Probably the same way I would feel if someone willfully sinned against me...

Yes, men are deceived but the pulpits are full of the deceivers.

So is this forum, I have learned...

John was a Christian. Christianity is not a religion but a way of life. So, if someone is part of a religion, and many do good things , then just be certain to compare what is taught with what He teaches. :amen

Perhaps you need to look up the word "religion" in the dictionary, rather than railing against communities coming together to worship God. Religion IS a way of life that attempts to reach out to God. It is not merely a set of beliefs. Thus, your point falls. John's first chapters ADDRESSES VISIBLE COMMUNITIES - CHURCHES!

Your "church of one" idea is just not biblical. This is why you cannot understand Revelation to be just another book, using apocalyptic literature, to warn Christians of straying from the WAY to the way of the world. It uses OT symbolism to express a common theme in the Scriptures.

All attempts to tie this in with an historical figure of recent day is a total waste of ink. John was writing to people of the first and second century who could care less about 2000 years later.

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Babylon is much larger than Jerusalem...it is the world. Those that will take the mark are also...worldwide. Remember, Satan comes to make war with the saints:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is us...Christians!

No,Babylon is only a city.
Rev 17;18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It is a very good discription in Rev of Jerusalem as it is today .I had this conversation with someone else not so long ago so these scriptures are still fresh on my mind.This first verse is speaking of Babylon in rev 18 and the second is speaking of Jerusalem in the gospel.If Jerusalem is not Babylon the great then one of these scriptures must be wrong.The only way both scripture can be true is if Babylon the great is Jerusalem.

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

See what I mean?

 

[whirlwind]

Babylon is much larger than Jerusalem...it is the world. Those that will take the mark are also...worldwide. Remember, Satan comes to make war with the saints:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is us...Christians!

No,Babylon is only a city.
Rev 17;18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It is a very good discription in Rev of Jerusalem as it is today .I had this conversation with someone else not so long ago so these scriptures are still fresh on my mind.This first verse is speaking of Babylon in rev 18 and the second is speaking of Jerusalem in the gospel.If Jerusalem is not Babylon the great then one of these scriptures must be wrong.The only way both scripture can be true is if Babylon the great is Jerusalem.

Babylon is the great city but the great city is not Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the holy city. The great city is the world...and Satan runs it.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.


If Jerusalem is not Babylon then one of these verses must be wrong.
The only way both verses can be true is if Jerusalem is Babylon.
Now which of these verses do you say is wrong?

 

[francisdesales]

No,Babylon is only a city.
Rev 17;18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Jerusalem NEVER literally reigned over the kings of the earth. Nor did Rome...

This clearly refers to a spiritual "ruler". Sin rules over ALL kings of the earth, the worldlings.

It is a very good discription in Rev of Jerusalem as it is today .I had this conversation with someone else not so long ago so these scriptures are still fresh on my mind.This first verse is speaking of Babylon in rev 18 and the second is speaking of Jerusalem in the gospel.If Jerusalem is not Babylon the great then one of these scriptures must be wrong.The only way both scripture can be true is if Babylon the great is Jerusalem.

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

You are making a major exegetical error. You are taking a metaphor from two different books, by two different authors, and DEMANDING that they mean the same thing. Metaphors do not have to take on the same meaning for all time. For example, does the word "Rock" ALWAYS refer to God? Of course not, since Jesus calls Simon "ROCK". Peter is not God. It is a metaphor refering to the solidity of Simon's faith.

Matthew speaks about hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Revelation speaks about the People who follow sin, noted as harlots, whores in the OT.

Jesus notes that the Pharisees were hypocrites, just as their "fathers", who said one thing and then slayed the prophets of God. Clearly, Revelation is not speaking the same way. John is NOT saying that "hypocrites" are slaying the Christians or the Apostles. Gentile Romans were. He is refering to the OT useage of the term, not to Christ's useage of the term.

Regards

 

[whirlwind]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.


If Jerusalem is not Babylon then one of these verses must be wrong.
The only way both verses can be true is if Jerusalem is Babylon.
Now which of these verses do you say is wrong?

Neither one. We know that Babylon is that great city but the question is...what is the great city:


There are many mentions of cities in the Bible and quite a variety of those: Strong city, priest city, city of David, city of the Lord, tumultuous city, joyous city, rebellious city, golden city, royal city, etc., but the city this post is concerned with is....The Great City.

Genesis 10:8-12 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, "Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord." And the beginning of his kingdom was BABEL, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh ( and the city Rehoboth) and Calah, And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a GREAT CITY.
The first Biblical mention of a "great city" is Nineveh, associated with Babylon (Iraq of
today).

Joshua 10:2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a GREAT CITY, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men thereof were mighty.
Mighty # 1368 gibbor ~ powerful, by impl. warrior, tyrant, champion, chief, excel, giant,
man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.

Mighty men often mean...giants, offspring of the fallen angels. Here, this great city, was
feared because "all the men thereof were mighty" - all the men were giants! So, the "
great city" is connected to Babylon and the fallen angels.

Jeremiah 22:6-9 For thus saith the Lord unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto Me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire. And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, 'Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this GREAT CITY?' Then they shall answer, 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them.'

God is speaking to the king of Judah but He is not speaking about the city of Jerusalem. It is
instead the "house of Judah" and they are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. He is
telling that house that if they worship other gods then He will send destroyers.

Some say this references the time Jerusalem was invaded by the Roman general Titus in 70AD but....God is not speaking to the city of Jerusalem here, it is instead the "house of Judah" He is addressing. So, what city does God mean when He says, "many nations shall pass by this city," for that city is the "great city?"

This prophesy will happen in the end of days for it is written that those that are in her, the "choice cedars" are to be "cast into the fire" and that is repeated in [Revelation 18:18 below] The cedars are symbolic of people while the choice cedars are those in high positions that helped this Great City. When are those "choice cedars" cast into the fire? In the "time of the harvest" which is the end of days.....

Jonah 1:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before Me."

Jonah 3:2-3 "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee" So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding GREAT CITY of three days' journey.

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"

Here we have the great city shown as Nineveh, the capital of the ancient kingdom and empire of Assyria, situated about two hundred and fifty miles north of Babylon. This is part of the kingdom of Nimrod.

Nineveh was a literal city while the "great city" is not. Nineveh was a type of the great city and all she stands for. It is interesting to me to see God speaking of "sparing" some of those in the great city, in the future sense. Why? Because they are misled...don't know their left from their right. And that is because of their false teachers. The great city is full of false religion, idol worship, apostasy.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This was shocking to me but I finally realized....THIS IS NOT JERUSALEM BEING SPOKEN OF. Yes, Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, actually in the outskirts...beyond the gate, but this "great city" is not a literal location. For that reason it is referred to as "spiritually" being called "Sodom and Egypt." Which just means wickedness. Egypt is symbolic of the world, worldly lusts and desires and you know what Sodom is all about.....evil, wickedness. That wickedness is what crucified our Lord and is what will kill the witnesses. It is not a place, the great city is Satan's realm....evil.