Revelation 1: an alternate study.

[Stormcrow]

Show it to me spiritually and I will take my words back, that you speak of carnal things.

Jesus spoke of the fall of Jerusalem and Judaism and did so from the moment He entered the city for His last Passover!

If you want to blame anyone for "carnality" here, blame Him!

 

[Broncobilly1972]

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. John says he was in the spirit on the Lords day, he is speaking of spiritual things, spiritual things which you are trying to show as purely physical events, if a thousand years is as a day in Gods eyes, how can you explain shortly as just a few years, as we know years?

 

[Hitch]

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. John says he was in the spirit on the Lords day, he is speaking of spiritual things, spiritual things which you are trying to show as purely physical events, if a thousand years is as a day in Gods eyes, how can you explain shortly as just a few years, as we know years?

Because the opening verses of the Apocalypse are literally understood.

Or we can play your game and say Jesus has another 1,000 years in the grave, ya up to it?

 

[Broncobilly1972]

You're really good at twisting words into what you think they should be

 

[Hitch]

You're really good at twisting words into what you think they should be

On the contrary Billy if anything in the Apocalypse is plain and meant to be taken at face value it is;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[Stormcrow]

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Exactly the point of this whole thread: how could anyone reading these letters to the churches then be blessed by the words in them if they weren't going to happen more than 2,000 years later?

And Hitch is exactly right: why is a day like a thousand years to the Lord when talking about "soon", but three days in the grave is always a literal 3 days???

Are we to take from the "spiritualizers" here that Christ is still in the grave and will be for another 1,000 years??? After all, if a day is as a thousand years to the Lord and He doesn't really communicate to us in terms we can understand, then obviously Christ is still in the grave and not at the right hand of the Father!

False doctrine never stands up to reasonable scrutiny, and Dispy/Futurism is false doctrine!

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm going to be taking a little time off before getting another installment up on this thread. I went to the doctor today and was given several courses of antibiotics to deal with a severe abdominal infection. Much pain. Much fatigue. Need much sleep.

Peace, out y'all.

 

[Vic C.]

I'm going to be taking a little time off before getting another installment up on this thread. I went to the doctor today and was given several courses of antibiotics to deal with a severe abdominal infection. Much pain. Much fatigue. Need much sleep.

Peace, out y'all.

Yeow! I pray God heals you quickly... and I do mean quickly. ;)

 

[Hitch]

Come out of him ye foul heartburn demon!!!

 

[Codger]

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Revelation 1:1-2 (NASB)

Revelation 1:1-3 establishes several key things about everything that follows in the rest of the book.

First, this is a vision of Christ revealed in heaven. Up to this point, the only testimony we have of the risen, ascended, glorified Christ in heaven comes from Stephen as he is about to be stoned to death (Acts 7:55-56), and Paul's Damascus road conversion (Acts 9:3-7). The book of Revelation was written to a wider audience so that they could know Christ was in heaven and God was in utter and complete control of things. It begins as a message of hope for the church undergoing intense persecution of which John is a "fellow partaker."

Second, it establishes that the contents of the book come from no less than God Himself, communicated to John through an angel.

Third, it establishes that the events of the book are soon to occur as they relate to John and his audience, the seven churches in Asia. This is such an important point that it is repeated throughout the book. These prophesied events were not meant for us living 2,000 years later! This is further born out by this verse:

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

Dear Stormcrow - Did you ever wonder who wrote the first three verses of Rev 1? It certainly wasn't John.

 

[Hitch]

Dear Stormcrow - Did you ever wonder who wrote the first three verses of Rev 1? It certainly wasn't John.

Ok Who was it? Jimmy Hoffa?

 

[Stormcrow]

Come out of him ye foul heartburn demon!!!

Diverticulitis with possible perforated colon...If the drugs don't clear this up or pain gets worse, I'm off to ER and possible surgery.

 

[Sinthesis]

Dear Stormcrow - Did you ever wonder who wrote the first three verses of Rev 1? It certainly wasn't John.

How can you be so certain?

 

[Hitch]

Diverticulitis with possible perforated colon...If the drugs don't clear this up or pain gets worse, I'm off to ER and possible surgery.

Exorcism failed again eh?


Best wishes thought&prayers Storm.

 

[Codger]

How can you be so certain?

Amplified Bible (AMP)

Revelation 1

1[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,

Would John have said it in this way? I don't think so. It's obvious to me that it was written by the scribe who duplicated the letter. He is also quoting John from his text. John's letter begins with the 4th verse.

Verses 1-3 was originally written on the outside of the scroll in its origin. This made it easy to identify the scroll in a library as it is rather cumbersome to unroll a scroll to determine its content. When the letter was transferred to codex - vs 1-3 was added to the beginning text of the letter.

 

[Hitch]

Amplified Bible (AMP)

Revelation 1

1[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,

Would John have said it in this way? I don't think so.

Did you ever wonder who wrote the first three verses of Rev 1? It certainly wasn't John. Conjecture is far from certainty .

It's obvious to me that it was written by the scribe who duplicated the letter. He is also quoting John from his text. John's letter begins with the 4th verse.

Verses 1-3 was originally written on the outside of the scroll in its origin. This made it easy to identify the scroll in a library as it is rather cumbersome to unroll a scroll to determine its content. When the letter was transferred to codex - vs 1-3 was added to the beginning text of the letter.

How many times have you personally seen the scroll? Where is it? Is there only one?

 

[Stormcrow]

Verses 1-3 was originally written on the outside of the scroll in its origin. This made it easy to identify the scroll in a library as it is rather cumbersome to unroll a scroll to determine its content. When the letter was transferred to codex - vs 1-3 was added to the beginning text of the letter.

I presume the point of this information is to call into question the timeliness of John's letters to the churches: as in "soon" and "at hand" are not part of the book?

If so, let's assume for the sake of argument you're right. That doesn't in any way, shape, or form negate the other verses that address the imminence of the prophecy as events that were about to unfold:

Only hold fast what you have until I come. Revelation 2:25 (ESV)

How could the church at Thyatira do this if His coming weren't going to happen for another 2,000+ years?

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (ESV)

How could the church at Philadelphia "hold fast what they have" if He weren't coming for another 2,000+ years?

And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.” “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Revelation 22:6-7 (ESV)

Revelation 22:6 uses the same words in Revelation 1:1, meaning that even if what you said is true about the first three verses of the book, it changes nothing about the writer's intent to convey imminence and immediacy.

Furthermore, how could the original "keepers" of the "words of the prophecy of this book" be blessed by keeping it if His coming weren't going to happen for another 2,000+ years?

The blessings and warnings written to those churches were meant for them, not us.

And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Revelation 22:10-11 (ESV)

Verse 10 is a direct allusion to Daniel 12:4,9:

"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Daniel 12:4,9 (NASB)

Daniel's prophecy in chapter 12 was meant for the "end time" and the book was sealed for that reason. John was told to leave his book open, because the "end time" had arrived. Understand what that meant through the eyes of an observant Jew of the 1st century, and the rest will fall into place for you.

It's got nothing to do with us.

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (ESV)

Another allusion to Daniel 12, this time verses 1-3.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22:18-19 (ESV)

How could any of the original recipients of John's letters suffer the consequences of adding to or taking away from the book if the events in it weren't going to happen for another 2,000+ years?

And finally,

He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Revelation 22:20 (ESV)

Again, even if the first three verses of Revelation are only a scribe's index, it doesn't change any other verse in the book that deals with the urgency, imminence, and immediacy of the rest of John's work.

Exhausted. I'm out.

 

[Vic C.]

Diverticulitis with possible perforated colon...If the drugs don't clear this up or pain gets worse, I'm off to ER and possible surgery.

I know a couple people who had the operation and they are doing fine. It's almost become a routine operation. Go for it. It'll probably be the best decision in the long run.

I pray God guides all those involved in treating your ailment.

 

[Richasher777]

Reba, stormcrow, etc
I mean this in love but when you look at the bible from start to finish you have sections given over to future events, kingdoms and the leaders which will arise.
Take the exchange between Daniel and Nebachanezzar in Daniel 2 the desciption of not only Nebachanezzars kingdom but other future kingdoms.*
Then go for example to Zechariah,*describing Alexander the great, cut down in his youth, 2 kingdoms becoming one.
Gods description of the anti Christ kingdom is simular. The beast that was not and yet is, the beast that sustains the head wound and yet comes back to life.Rev 13:13.
It's quite clear in its interpretation as to a kingdom. I put to you it's Turkey and the ottoman empire coming back to life.
From my experience dealing with Islamist, they are practicing a supernatural Shia law to bring nations and people under its authority. They are active and well organised. As a believer to stand in this period, you need to at least double your bible reading from say 1/2 to 1 hour. And dramatically increase your level of prayer. The effects of their ritual practicing supernatural Shia law, is like a blanket of unbelief. Hence it has the capacity to bring about a great falling away.
They are mainly active in this activity between the hours of 10:30pm to 4:00 am.
If you live near a large church or a mosque that practices the Wahhabi sect, then they will be active.
I encourage you, do not handle this warning foolishly.
If you aren't baptised in the holy ghost and speaking in tongues, seek it out.
This is not as you have spoken out in the past, labelling it as speculation but what I have said is truth. Seek the Lord, his peace rest upon what has been said.

 

[Stormcrow]

Reba, stormcrow, etc
I mean this in love but when you look at the bible from start to finish you have sections given over to future events, kingdoms and the leaders which will arise.
Take the exchange between Daniel and Nebachanezzar in Daniel 2 the desciption of not only Nebachanezzars kingdom but other future kingdoms.*
Then go for example to Zechariah,*describing Alexander the great, cut down in his youth, 2 kingdoms becoming one.
Gods description of the anti Christ kingdom is simular. The beast that was not and yet is, the beast that sustains the head wound and yet comes back to life.Rev 13:13.
It's quite clear in its interpretation as to a kingdom. I put to you it's Turkey and the ottoman empire coming back to life.
From my experience dealing with Islamist, they are practicing a supernatural Shia law to bring nations and people under its authority. They are active and well organised. As a believer to stand in this period, you need to at least double your bible reading from say 1/2 to 1 hour. And dramatically increase your level of prayer. The effects of their ritual practicing supernatural Shia law, is like a blanket of unbelief. Hence it has the capacity to bring about a great falling away.
They are mainly active in this activity between the hours of 10:30pm to 4:00 am.
If you live near a large church or a mosque that practices the Wahhabi sect, then they will be active.
I encourage you, do not handle this warning foolishly.
If you aren't baptised in the holy ghost and speaking in tongues, seek it out.
This is not as you have spoken out in the past, labelling it as speculation but what I have said is truth. Seek the Lord, his peace rest upon what has been said.

I disagree with almost everything you wrote here, but don't have the time, energy or inclination to deal with your post point-by-point.

Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs. What you're not entitled to is your own facts. I've gone to great lengths to put the facts before people reading this thread. Take them or leave them. I'm too tired to care, really.