Revelation 13:7a

[Eugene]

How does God choose who will go first and who will remain through the first half?

Dear Sister wondering, concerning the catching up of saints we can go to Rev 4:1 and find the viewpoint to begin with.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (John to heaven), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

In Rev 4:4 we see the 24 elders, and in Rev 4:6 there are the four beast (or living ones as some bibles interpret). These are saints caught up to God prior to the tribulation, or as Rev 3:10 calls the first three and one half years of tribulation; “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” We see these with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation beginning.

Next there are a great multitude of Christians arrive in heaven in Rev 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Who are they? Rev 7:14 And . . . These are they which came out of great tribulation (Remember these are Christians), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This just shows two groups, and there is a third all of Israel being sealed in Rev 7:4-8, and shown in Mt Sion with Jesus in Rev 14:1, the heavenly Jerusalem.

You asked “How does God choose who will go first and who will remain through the first half?”
Basically that is what Revelation chapters two and three is telling us. Five portions of the one Church is told to repent such as the following scripture, and there is consequence.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (No longer putting Jesus first as they did at first)
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

You started well, but now are lacking, and your assembly, or those that fit this description no longer are in first place as you were.

Notice the difference with what is told to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10, one of the two parts of the Church commended: (basically – because you have patiently kept My word) Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world.

Our walk in Christ will determine our place in heaven; some will be kings and priests according to Rev 5:10, and others that come out of great tribulation in have a different place. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

There’s much more to this but hope this gives you a little insight into the purpose of a relationship with our Savior.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
.

 

[Chopper]

WHY does the rest of the church have to pass through the first half of the tribulation?

You mean there are two tiers of christians? How does God choose who will go first and who will remain through the first half? Isn't Jesus supposed to save all of us?

Wondering

I'm really glad that you asked me this question my Dear Sister. Just look at the folk who attend the Church that you attend. You will see some folk who have a very good testimony for living a serious lifestyle for the Lord Jesus. Other's are not very serious and I call them "pew warmers". They're saved, but the world has trapped them into a so-so Christianity. They will need some persecution to solidify their commitment to their Savior, and the first half of the Tribulation will do exactly that and then they will be gathered to Jesus at that half way point.

Now those who constantly have a serious lifestyle for Jesus constitutes the Bride of Jesus. They are the "elect" of God,

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love. 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

These only, are the ones who are gathered to Jesus before the Tribulation period begins. It is part of their reward for being so faithful to our Lord in letting Him work His work thru them....I hope this helps, if not, keep asking.

I'm curious, you are 69 years old, I'm only 6 years older than you. When did you receive Jesus as your Savior. The reason that I ask is, you seem to have a good grasp of the Scriptures. Either you've been a student of God's Word for a long time or there's a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit going on in your heart and mind. Either way, I'm impressed.

 

[smaller]

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:"

Who are these saints?

Satan has waged war withIN man from the beginning of man.

 

[smaller]

The Great Tribulation is the time of our final dividing, from our enemies, internal.

The question is more along the lines of "who" is this Great Tribulation meant for?

Not for us, but against our internal adversaries.

It is the final cut apart of two parties. It is the time of Glory for the Saints, and woe upon the enemies, unseen, as they "lose" their places "in man."

It is termed the time of Jacob's Trouble. Why is the question. Jacob came before his father as an imposter, a poser, a liar, even as a thief.

YET he was telling the truth. He shows us that God Prevails in the end, when his name was changed to Israel, which is GOD PREVAILS.

Genesis 32:28
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Definition:
Israel = "God prevails"

Breaking the term Israel down further, even in the meaning of the name, it boils down to power over the contemptuous body.

It is the body of contempt, that Jacob carried before his father. And in that, he spoke truthfully. Even while seeming to be a liar to surface readers.

 

[smaller]

In Paul's terminology of this matter, it is essentially the destruction of the "vile body." The "natural body" in it's current "vile" or "contemptuous" state of affairs, will no longer exist. And it will not because it is against The Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

The Spirit and the flesh are 'contenders,' and are opposed to one another.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We can read of the state of the natural man and the natural body, here, in painstaking details, where Paul shows us our "current state" in the natural body, and our Promised Body, that is free from the former troubles.

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now, you might ask, where is it written that Adam was sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness? And likewise all mankind that followed, bears these same dire conditions of fact. That is seldom, if ever, taught. Yet Paul says "so it is written."

It has always been the plan of God to have first, the natural, THEN the Spiritual, extracted from this present environment. Scripture likens this to a seed. It is planted in darkness, grows from the darkness of the earth, springs forth into daylight, grows, and is then harvested. This is how God operates His Field. His Garden.

 

[dianegcook]

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:"

Who are these saints?

It depends on how you read Rev. And Daniel
Daniel had seals that could not be opened .
Rev. We have seals being opened to His Elect.
The beginning of Rev. Is the Lord's day, the day of the Lord.
And what happens on the Lord's day? Day of the Lord?
2 Peter3:10
All evil rudiments burnt with fire.
There is no longer flesh.
That is when He gathers, His Elect from the 4 winds and rule from Jerusalem, for a thousand years. As in 2Peter 3:8, one day is with the Lord a 1000 years, and a thousand years as 1 day. The Lord's day.
And the Elect will reign with Christ, a thousand years. Millennium.
Now, as I stated before, one must understand how to read it.
The seals are the knowledge, that are opened to the Elect, as in Daniel says, the wise will understand.
This gives them knowledge that recognizes the trumps that are about to sound.
The seal of God in His forehead.
The trumps really are the seals, but in action.
The Dragon is after the saints, cause some to die spiritually, by deceiving them.
I do not believe in the pretrib rapture, thus the saints are us, if we are still alive when He comes.
As in Rev.chapter 9, Apollyon, Satan, and his fallen angels can not touch the ones that have this seal.
The others will accept the Mark of the beast in their forehead, because they were deceived by the Dragon, Apollyon.
The ones sealed will know that this beast is the false one.
Keep their virginity, in a spiritual sense.
My beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear Sister wondering, concerning the catching up of saints we can go to Rev 4:1 and find the viewpoint to begin with.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (John to heaven), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

In Rev 4:4 we see the 24 elders, and in Rev 4:6 there are the four beast (or living ones as some bibles interpret). These are saints caught up to God prior to the tribulation, or as Rev 3:10 calls the first three and one half years of tribulation; “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” We see these with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation beginning.

Next there are a great multitude of Christians arrive in heaven in Rev 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Who are they? Rev 7:14 And . . . These are they which came out of great tribulation (Remember these are Christians), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This just shows two groups, and there is a third all of Israel being sealed in Rev 7:4-8, and shown in Mt Sion with Jesus in Rev 14:1, the heavenly Jerusalem.

You asked “How does God choose who will go first and who will remain through the first half?”
Basically that is what Revelation chapters two and three is telling us. Five portions of the one Church is told to repent such as the following scripture, and there is consequence.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (No longer putting Jesus first as they did at first)
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

You started well, but now are lacking, and your assembly, or those that fit this description no longer are in first place as you were.

Notice the difference with what is told to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10, one of the two parts of the Church commended: (basically – because you have patiently kept My word) Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world.

Our walk in Christ will determine our place in heaven; some will be kings and priests according to Rev 5:10, and others that come out of great tribulation in have a different place. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

There’s much more to this but hope this gives you a little insight into the purpose of a relationship with our Savior.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
.

Eugene,

I never would have seen this. Something went wrong or I missed it, probably.

Wanted to thank you. I know the purpose for my relationship - which is more than one - but Revelation makes me a little crazy so I thank you for the input.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm really glad that you asked me this question my Dear Sister. Just look at the folk who attend the Church that you attend. You will see some folk who have a very good testimony for living a serious lifestyle for the Lord Jesus. Other's are not very serious and I call them "pew warmers". They're saved, but the world has trapped them into a so-so Christianity. They will need some persecution to solidify their commitment to their Savior, and the first half of the Tribulation will do exactly that and then they will be gathered to Jesus at that half way point.

Now those who constantly have a serious lifestyle for Jesus constitutes the Bride of Jesus. They are the "elect" of God,

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love. 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

These only, are the ones who are gathered to Jesus before the Tribulation period begins. It is part of their reward for being so faithful to our Lord in letting Him work His work thru them....I hope this helps, if not, keep asking.

I'm curious, you are 69 years old, I'm only 6 years older than you. When did you receive Jesus as your Savior. The reason that I ask is, you seem to have a good grasp of the Scriptures. Either you've been a student of God's Word for a long time or there's a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit going on in your heart and mind. Either way, I'm impressed.

Chopper,

Don't be so impressed. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. But to answer your question, it's the first reason - however the second reason must be present also, no? In all our lives, I mean. I was about 28 when I met Jesus. Am planning to keep on learning!

Just so you know, Daniel and Revelation give me big problems. I just can't go there. I admire persons who can understand as you do. Dianegcook made me dizzy with her post no. 26!

The pew warmers. I know what you mean. But I always wonder if they know salvation. Not that I should judge someone's soul, but you do wonder. How I understand it is that you're saved or you're not. After salvation there are different gifts, to different degrees - some do more work, some less. I think this is what you're referring to in different words. To me a pew warmer is not saved.

So being spared the tribulation is a reward for service. But then where does our trust in Jesus come in? Aren't we trusting in Him for everything? You're saying some part of it depends on our works. This is interesting, I'd never thought of it this way. It would be the same as our "place" in heaven as a reward.

Wondering

 

[Eugene]

So being spared the tribulation is a reward for service. But then where does our trust in Jesus come in? Aren't we trusting in Him for everything? You're saying some part of it depends on our works. This is interesting, I'd never thought of it this way. It would be the same as our "place" in heaven as a reward.

Hi Sister wondering, I thought I would just respond to this one part of your reply.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. How? She certainly isn't saved by works. (Tit 3:5)
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. This word is interpreted as "a righteous act or deed" by Strong's Concordance. In other words, not all the Church will be a part of the bride of Christ just by birth.
My thoughts.
.

 

[smaller]

Hi Sister wondering, I thought I would just respond to this one part of your reply.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. How? She certainly isn't saved by works. (Tit 3:5)
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. This word is interpreted as "a righteous act or deed" by Strong's Concordance. In other words, not all the Church will be a part of the bride of Christ just by birth.
My thoughts.
.

For a point of order Eugene, Rev. 2-3 tells us exactly "how" that transpires.

How? When each member finally listens to the entirety of what is said to all the churches.

There are and has been for several hundreds of years now so many various sights of these matters of the 7 churches. If we read properly though each member [should] heed every Word spoken therein. At some point His Own Spirit will lead that charge and THEN the other matters of Revelation will UNFOLD.

The Bride in the longer term senses is comprised of many i.e. there are probably more that have passed on and are waiting then there are presently on the earth.

 

[Eugene]

For a point of order Eugene, Rev. 2-3 tells us exactly "how" that transpires.

How? When each member finally listens to the entirety of what is said to all the churches.

There are and has been for several hundreds of years now so many various sights of these matters of the 7 churches. If we read properly though each member [should] heed every Word spoken therein. At some point His Own Spirit will lead that charge and THEN the other matters of Revelation will UNFOLD.

The Bride in the longer term senses is comprised of many i.e. there are probably more that have passed on and are waiting then there are presently on the earth.

I believe I understand and agree with what you have said.
.

 

[smaller]

I believe I understand and agree with what you have said.

Imagine that! heh heh

 

[dianegcook]

Chopper,

Don't be so impressed. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. But to answer your question, it's the first reason - however the second reason must be present also, no? In all our lives, I mean. I was about 28 when I met Jesus. Am planning to keep on learning!

Just so you know, Daniel and Revelation give me big problems. I just can't go there. I admire persons who can understand as you do. Dianegcook made me dizzy with her post no. 26!

The pew warmers. I know what you mean. But I always wonder if they know salvation. Not that I should judge someone's soul, but you do wonder. How I understand it is that you're saved or you're not. After salvation there are different gifts, to different degrees - some do more work, some less. I think this is what you're referring to in different words. To me a pew warmer is not saved.

So being spared the tribulation is a reward for service. But then where does our trust in Jesus come in? Aren't we trusting in Him for everything? You're saying some part of it depends on our works. This is interesting, I'd never thought of it this way. It would be the same as our "place" in heaven as a reward.

Wondering

Sorry, I made you dizzy, lol
There is only 2 churches He found no fault.
Smyrna and Philadelphia
Philadelphia, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Yes, we will be tried, I will not find Satan tempting, but rather an abomination.

Smyrna
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer, behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that he may be tried, and shall have tribulation 10 days, be thou faithful unto death, and I will give them a crown of life.

Mark 13:9-11
They shall deliver you up to councils, in the synagogues, ye shall be beaten, brought up before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

But when they deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither premeditated, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Hour of temptation......

 

[smaller]

If "all" the church members are to "listen" to what the Spirit is saying, then they all likewise have "faults" they should turn and face. That's the simple lesson of Rev. 2-3. To listen is to heed the facts of our faults. When we DO listen, we will hear and see of the workings of evil in ourselves, and these being sourced from Satan and devils. It's unpleasant to hear of it, as this tends to offend us, but that's a vital part of the discourses.

 

[th1b.taylor]

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:"

Who are these saints?

That will be you and I.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Sister wondering, I thought I would just respond to this one part of your reply.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. How? She certainly isn't saved by works. (Tit 3:5)
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. This word is interpreted as "a righteous act or deed" by Strong's Concordance. In other words, not all the Church will be a part of the bride of Christ just by birth.
My thoughts.
.

Absolutely. We are not saved by birth. The pharisees told Jesus they were sons of Abraham - but that was not enough.

Chopper was talking about the fact that not all the saved will be raptured at the beginning. So i was just asking why not. His reply had something to do with "works", being ready, being faithful. Just wanted to make sure I understood.

Ephesians 2:8 works for me.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Absolutely. We are not saved by birth. The pharisees told Jesus they were sons of Abraham - but that was not enough.

Chopper was talking about the fact that not all the saved will be raptured at the beginning. So i was just asking why not. His reply had something to do with "works", being ready, being faithful. Just wanted to make sure I understood.

Ephesians 2:8 works for me.

Wondering

It's problematic to look at any believer in the natural senses and see the entirety of ourselves as saved. The natural person of all of us will not be saved. That will be, essentially, left behind. See 1 Cor. 15:43-49 for the event sequencing. There is a first/natural condition, and within that, the promise of the Gospel, by faith, in latter condition. This means by process of elimination, that the natural man fails or passes in favor of the latter, at the points of departure.

In other words, the hope of our salvation resides in the New Body, not the old one. In the meantime we're stuck with the conditions of the natural person, regardless.

 

[GodsGrace]

If "all" the church members are to "listen" to what the Spirit is saying, then they all likewise have "faults" they should turn and face. That's the simple lesson of Rev. 2-3. To listen is to heed the facts of our faults. When we DO listen, we will hear and see of the workings of evil in ourselves, and these being sourced from Satan and devils. It's unpleasant to hear of it, as this tends to offend us, but that's a vital part of the discourses.

When I read about the different churches, I see that each one has a fault.
Also, Jesus does something in or for each church.

For instance, for Ephesus He will remove the lampstand out of its place.
To Smyrna He will give the crown of life.
To Pergamum He will make war against them.
To Thyatira he will give authority over the nations.
To Sardis He will confess the overcomers name to the Father.
To Philadelphia He will make the overcomer a pillar in the Temple.
To Laodicea the overcomer will sit on the Throne.

Of course, I don't know what it all means.
To me it just means to hang on tight and be an overcomer.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I made you dizzy, lol
There is only 2 churches He found no fault.
Smyrna and Philadelphia
Philadelphia, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Yes, we will be tried, I will not find Satan tempting, but rather an abomination.

Smyrna
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer, behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that he may be tried, and shall have tribulation 10 days, be thou faithful unto death, and I will give them a crown of life.

Mark 13:9-11
They shall deliver you up to councils, in the synagogues, ye shall be beaten, brought up before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

But when they deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither premeditated, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Hour of temptation......

Hi Dianegcook,

I'll reread re the churches.

You say this which is interesting to me:

But when they deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither premeditated, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

This is a general idea, I find. Sometimes you'll be talking to someone and words come to you for witnessing and you're not even sure how they got to you.

Thanks.

Wondering
P.S. It was a good dizzy! : )

 

[smaller]

When I read about the different churches, I see that each one has a fault.
Wondering

Indeed. So if we are listening to "all" the Words, we will hear of our faults. And, if we are really listening, we will pinpoint the "source" of the problems/faults. That is always a bit unpleasant to deal with, personally. Most of the time that side of the ledgers passes by our hearing. It's the nature of the subject matter for this to happen. We only like the good parts, and insulate ourselves from what we don't like. It's almost magical how a little voice will come into our heads and say "this doesn't apply to YOU because YOU are a believer." I learned that that is the voice of the deceiver.

Oddly over the courses of life, in business, I learned that to understand problems is to identify what they are and why they exist. This may have helped me to focus more on the problematic side of the scriptures, to see why this is so. It's not always popular sight, but there are many Spiritual Gems to be had in that direction. One of those gems is recognizing the operation of deception.

Yes, all the Words of God apply to EVERY believer. Even the ones we don't like.