Revelation 13:7a

[GodsGrace]

It's problematic to look at any believer in the natural senses and see the entirety of ourselves as saved. The natural person of all of us will not be saved. That will be, essentially, left behind. See 1 Cor. 15:43-49 for the event sequencing. There is a first/natural condition, and within that, the promise of the Gospel, by faith, in latter condition. This means by process of elimination, that the natural man fails or passes in favor of the latter, at the points of departure.

In other words, the hope of our salvation resides in the New Body, not the old one. In the meantime we're stuck with the conditions of the natural person, regardless.

Smaller,

You're right that we're "stuck" with the conditions of the natural man. But not to despair as some might. We can be overcomers if we keep our eye on the cross. We're always open to failure but our spirit is conforming to Christ's spirit.

1 Cor 15 is speaking to the resurrection, but we could begin now. Behold old things are passed away, all things are new.

In Christ we are new creatures. I think that if we can see ourselves this way, it'll go a long way to helping us with our sin nature.

You know, like if we're told we're apes, we'll tend to act like an ape might. If we're told we're children of God and have Christ's spirit in us, we'll tend to act more like what Jesus was teaching in the beatitudes.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

I prefer the facts of scripture, even if I don't like them. They are true, regardless.

IF I read the condition of the natural man, even believers, it's quite easy to see that we, in the natural, are planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body that dies because of sin.

This is also noted as a condition of the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. So, no, there is no remedy. It's a purposeful God Given conflict that we have been placed "into" in this present life. It's not an "all" or nothing deal on only the good side of the ledgers.

 

[GodsGrace]

I prefer the facts of scripture, even if I don't like them. They are true, regardless.

IF I read the condition of the natural man, even believers, it's quite easy to see that we, in the natural, are planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body that dies because of sin.

This is also noted as a condition of the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. So, no, there is no remedy. It's a purposeful God Given conflict that we have been placed "into" in this present life. It's not an "all" or nothing deal on only the good side of the ledgers.

Wow.
WHAT facts of scripture are you referring to? You have to be talking about Romans and the sin nature. You could confirm.

You feel there's no remedy? What exactly did Jesus save us for? Just to go to heaven? What about here on earth? Doesn't the Kingdom of God start here??

And what do you mean that the conflict between the flesh and the spirit is a "God-given conflict that we've been placed into in this present life."

God did this to us on purpose? What for?

These are new ideas to me.
I hope you respond but I have to go till tomorrow.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Wow.
WHAT facts of scripture are you referring to? You have to be talking about Romans and the sin nature. You could confirm.

There are many citings. What I was "directly" referring to is Paul's depiction of OUR natural state of affairs, primarily from 1 Cor. 15:43-49. In that we can clearly see that the natural body is "weak," "corrupt" "dishonorable" and doomed to failure. It is in short, a body that dies because of sin.

There is no way to "remedy" the matters of weakness, corruption and dishonor INTO the Spirit. That simply can not happen. We all bear and have factual adversity to the Spirit, because of these "universal" to mankind facts of being in a natural body. These are what make the flesh contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

And also yes, Paul and John speak and teach extensively on this exact subject throughout the N.T. in many many ways.

You feel there's no remedy?

Absolutely NOT. Not as long as we are in a flesh/natural body. The flesh is factually against the Spirit. There is no dodging available. If we try to dodge these facts we are instantly turned into lying hypocrites as an anti-reward from the Spirit.

We have to be honest about having sin to even be IN TRUTH. 1 John 1:8. If anyone thinks they are sinless in their natural body they are just common liars and posers.

What exactly did Jesus save us for?

There are many DIVINE REASONS why we as believers have been placed into adversity. And they are GOOD and HEAVENLY reasons. We are not required to deny our adverse situation, but to recognize WHY.

One of those reasons is to foster HOPE. Hope is a Divine Matter. Love, that is GOD, Himself HOPES. Therefore we learn HOPE as well. We also experience the total necessity of Divine Mercy because we NEED Divine Mercy. Therefore we "experience" this, His Mercy, not as some abstract mental baloney, but as a REAL GENUINE recognition of NEED because of our ADVERSE situation.

I could wax on, but I'd HOPE you see the point. We should not "cover up" our adversity by lying hypocrisy, but recognize it, truthfully. When we do we get an ADDITIONAL reward of the Spirit, which is HONESTY. One of the finest fruits to ever be yielded on the VINE of Christ. I love honesty, don't you? God does too. He LOVES it when we are honest, even if that means eating some HUMBLE PIE about the reality of our condition in the natural. So, a HUMBLE PIE meal is in order for GODS CHILDREN. We basically have our FACES planted into it and are FORCED to eat it. This again is a requirement for ETERNAL EXISTENCE.

Humbleness. Smallness if you prefer. Deference toward another if you prefer. Upholding someone else at YOUR expense with NO reward. This is all part of the "experience" of humble pie.

And what do you mean that the conflict between the flesh and the spirit is a "God-given conflict that we've been placed into in this present life."

God has quite purposefully planted us all in an existence composed of both good and EVIL.

Both serve His Purposes. God IS entirely Great Enough and entirely powerful enough to make GOOD or even Perfect arise from this conflict of being planted in "imperfection." No different than a beautiful stalk of wheat arises and bears fruit out of the darkness of the ground, wherein there is dung. These are COMPLIMENTARY toward the YIELD, even though the DUNG is cast away and used up.

That is Divine Sovereignty at HIS FINEST. To use adversity to bring about MARVELS and WONDERS.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That will be you and I.

Now you're talking.

 

[dianegcook]

Now you're talking.

And I say, Amen...

 

[dianegcook]

Hi Dianegcook,

I'll reread re the churches.

You say this which is interesting to me:

But when they deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither premeditated, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

This is a general idea, I find. Sometimes you'll be talking to someone and words come to you for witnessing and you're not even sure how they got to you.

Thanks.

Wondering
P.S. It was a good dizzy! : )

Lol

I was trying to answer different issues in one post.
Someone said the rapture was in Rev.4:
How could that be when in Rev.1:6, says He hath made us kings and priest?
Rev.1:10, John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, this is referring to the day of the Lord, not the Sabbath, which is referring to 2Peter 3:8-10
Evil rudiments will be burnt, the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Thus, no flesh.
Rev. Is not in chronological order.
John was shown these visions,things that were before, present and future .
Right before the beginning of the millenium, during the millennium, and after the millennium.
The seals I was referring to in Daniel 12:4
O Daniel , shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge increased.
Daniel 12:9-10
Go thy way Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Which leads to the opening of the seals in Rev.6:1-17
Which is upon the forehead of the 144,000.
I believe this is the knowledge of the trumps that are about to sound.
The trumps are the action of the seals.
They recognize the trumps when sounded.

God's wrath, vials, are being poured on the beast and those who receive his Mark in their foreheads.

How many times does God's wrath come? One

As we see in Rev.6:17 it states the great day of His wrath is come.(seals)
Rev.11:18, it states and thy wrath is come. (Trump)
Rev.16:1, pour out the vials of wrath of God (vials)

So I see at least, that in someway, the seals, trumps and vials are the same.

Hope, I didn't make you dizzy again, lol.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Lol

I was trying to answer different issues in one post.
Someone said the rapture was in Rev.4:
How could that be when in Rev.1:6, says He hath made us kings and priest?
Rev.1:10, John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, this is referring to the day of the Lord, not the Sabbath, which is referring to 2Peter 3:8-10
Evil rudiments will be burnt, the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Thus, no flesh.
Rev. Is not in chronological order.
John was shown these visions,things that were before, present and future .
Right before the beginning of the millenium, during the millennium, and after the millennium.
The seals I was referring to in Daniel 12:4
O Daniel , shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge increased.
Daniel 12:9-10
Go thy way Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Which leads to the opening of the seals in Rev.6:1-17
Which is upon the forehead of the 144,000.
I believe this is the knowledge of the trumps that are about to sound.
The trumps are the action of the seals.
They recognize the trumps when sounded.

God's wrath, vials, are being poured on the beast and those who receive his Mark in their foreheads.

How many times does God's wrath come? One

As we see in Rev.6:17 it states the great day of His wrath is come.(seals)
Rev.11:18, it states and thy wrath is come. (Trump)
Rev.16:1, pour out the vials of wrath of God (vials)

So I see at least, that in someway, the seals, trumps and vials are the same.

Hope, I didn't make you dizzy again, lol.

Did you just say the rapture was a week from Tuesday?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Did you just say the rapture was a week from Tuesday?

Om MAAAN! I gotta get ready!

 

[Corn Pop]

I would think if there was a rapture scripture would clearly say there is a rapture and everyone would agree there is a rapture.

Just like scripture says there is a God and everyone agrees there is a God.

Mans mind dreams and fantisise to much, go off path.

 

[dianegcook]

Did you just say the rapture was a week from Tuesday?

I must have you spending also, lol
No,
As stated , don't believe in the so called rapture, especially, pretrib.
The gathering of the saints, does not happen till after the tribulation.
Matt.24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27
Don't believe in the left behind doctrine.....

 

[th1b.taylor]

I would think if there was a rapture scripture would clearly say there is a rapture and everyone would agree there is a rapture.

Just like scripture says there is a God and everyone agrees there is a God.

Mans mind dreams and fantisise to much, go off path.

The scriptures do, indeed, state the Rapture will happen but there you go, just as most that are not studying the scriptures go, assuming that because the word 'Rapture' is not found in the scripture it must not be true. This is the same false argument used to dispute, if that term can, actually, be used, the Triune God. Rapture codifies the principal of the catching away, and it is just that simple.

 

[Corn Pop]

The scriptures do, indeed, state the Rapture will happen but there you go, just as most that are not studying the scriptures go, assuming that because the word 'Rapture' is not found in the scripture it must not be true. This is the same false argument used to dispute, if that term can, actually, be used, the Triune God. Rapture codifies the principal of the catching away, and it is just that simple.

Well if the weeds get pulled first, and the wicked gets reaped first, like scripture says, I sure would not like to be a part of the so called 'rapture'.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I must have you spending also, lol
No,
As stated , don't believe in the so called rapture, especially, pretrib.
The gathering of the saints, does not happen till after the tribulation.
Matt.24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27
Don't believe in the left behind doctrine.....

I don't believe in Christmas...
I don't believe in Luther...
I don't believe in Easter...
I don't believe in Calvin...

I just believe in Jesus...

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well if the weeds get pulled first, and the wicked gets reaped first, like scripture says, I sure would not like to be a part of the so called 'rapture'.

Dan,
It is impossible for me to help with the scriptures you believe demonstrate this "heresy" you mention here. I would like to address them but I can, only, if you tello me where this fallacy isw rooted.

 

[Eugene]

Well if the weeds get pulled first, and the wicked gets reaped first, like scripture says, I sure would not like to be a part of the so called 'rapture'.

Dear Brother kiwidan, are you somehow confusing the following scripture with the rapture of the Church?

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This occurs at a time just prior to the thousand year reign of Christ, and to illustrate who He is speaking of the next scriptures show them to be those taken in Judgment during Noah’s time. The taking away was the bad part to await judgment at the Great White Throne.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not (those marrying and giving in marriage) until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[smaller]

Don't know where kiwidan is on the subject, but he is right in what he is citing. The tares will be taken and gathered up first before there can be any sort of rapture. It is an identical showing to other scriptures of similar nature, such as the dividing of the nations in Matt. 25.

There will be a 'separation' first.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Don't know where kiwidan is on the subject, but he is right in what he is citing. The tares will be taken and gathered up first before there can be any sort of rapture. It is an identical showing to other scriptures of similar nature, such as the dividing of the nations in Matt. 25.

There will be a 'separation' first.

Smaller,
Would you, please, break Chapter 25 down and demonstrate how you arrive at this conclusion? Chapter 25, as nearly as I can make it, presents three pictures, word illustrations, of Heaven. I know I am not the smartest man in the world but, even, going out of context I cannot arrive at the point you have just tried to make.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
Would you, please, break Chapter 25 down and demonstrate how you arrive at this conclusion? Chapter 25, as nearly as I can make it, presents three pictures, word illustrations, of Heaven. I know I am not the smartest man in the world but, even, going out of context I cannot arrive at the point you have just tried to make.

Point made was this, the citing that kiwidan is referencing, even though he didn't cite it, from Matt. 13. Please notice what comes FIRST.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I am referencing the separation, tare from wheat. And the same separation, goat from sheep in Matt. 25.

I personally am NOT convinced that there will be any form of rapture until the tares are gathered away FIRST, just as Jesus noted. That being said I do accept "some form" of rapture and I see that as depicted by Paul in Phil. 3:21, but it could very well transpire right here on terra firma. We do see the Temple coming DOWN upon the earth near the end.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Earth cleansed of enemies. Those who await us return to earth after cleansing. When I say "return to earth" that doesn't mean I think they are in outer space or another planet. Those who have died are with Christ in the heavenly realm. There is no "pinpointed" location for this as in geography. It is the realm of the Spirit and I don't think that entails geography.

I could tell you exactly how it's going to happen but you wouldn't believe me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Point made was this, the citing that kiwidan is referencing, even though he didn't cite it, from Matt. 13. Please notice what comes FIRST.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I am referencing the separation, tare from wheat. And the same separation, goat from sheep in Matt. 25.

I personally am NOT convinced that there will be any form of rapture until the tares are gathered away FIRST, just as Jesus noted. That being said I do accept "some form" of rapture and I see that as depicted by Paul in Phil. 3:21, but it could very well transpire right here on terra firma. We do see the Temple coming DOWN upon the earth near the end.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Earth cleansed of enemies. Those who await us return to earth after cleansing. When I say "return to earth" that doesn't mean I think they are in outer space or another planet. Those who have died are with Christ in the heavenly realm. There is no "pinpointed" location for this as in geography. It is the realm of the Spirit and I don't think that entails geography.

I could tell you exactly how it's going to happen but you wouldn't believe me.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
Mat 13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.
Mat 13:36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Mat 13:39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found, and hid; and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a merchant seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 and having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,
Mat 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea.
Mat 13:52 And he said unto them, Therefore every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

But you see, without contextual understanding it is, indeed possible to go to your understand here but god is infinitely more wise than we and He knew, when He had this chapter recorded that context would be required. The above verses, quoted by myself, are the explanation Jesus gave for the parable of the Tares and the wheat. These verses are about the End, a good thousand years after the Rapture event.