Revelation 3:10

[dirtfarmer]

No I wasn't, but agree that when applied in the right context all scripture edifies.

Dear Brother dirtfarmer, thanks so much for going into this, and I am interested in your thinking as to where there are animal sacrifices mandated to the Church in seven separate locations of Asia.

In fact I'm adding this next scripture to qualify my thinking on this. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Thanks.

hello Eugene, dirtfarmer here

There is no mandate to the seven churches in Revelation for animal sacrifices, but there are mandates for those in those seven churches to be overcomers.
Chapter 2
v10 be faithful unto the end to receive crown of life
v11 he that overcometh will not be hurt of the second death.
v17 to him that overcometh will eat hidden manna and receive a white stone with a new name.
v26 to him that overcometh power over the nations & will rule with a rod of iron
Chapter 3
v5 he that overcometh shall be clothed in white raiment & name will not be blotted out of the book of life
v10 kept from temptation that will come upon all the earth (tribulation?)
v12 he that overcometh will be made a pillar in the temple of God & shall go out no more
v 21 he that overcometh will be granted to seat with Christ in his throne.

Do these things that are granted to the seven churches sound as if it is the body of Christ or does it seems like things that will happen during the earthly kingdom that is promised to Israel?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Brother Douglas Summers, I agree with this also, but what I'm asking is what of those that don't faithfully keep the word of God (Rom 3:10). The entire Church will indeed be translated prior to the middle of the week of tribulation when the abomination of desolation attempts to sit as God before the people, or tries to take that holy place that only God has, but in Rev 7:9 John is shown a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Are these washed in the blood of the Lamb our brethren?)
Now above I emboldened the elders who were already in heaven. They were there round about the throne in Rev 4:4, and there were four beasts or living one in Rev 4:6 with Jesus before the temptation even began.

Let me hold off here lest I get too involved for anyone to understand, and I'll await your reply.

hello Eugene, dirtfarmer here

I know that I am not Douglas Summers, but I will give you where I believe the "great multitude of Revelation 7:9 & 14 comes from.
In Matthew 25:31-46 we have the judgment of the nations that are left after the "rapture and the marriage supper" of Christ. The nations will be judged as to how they helped or didn't help God's earthly people, the Jews. This is the separation of the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from his goats." The sheep nations are those that helped ISRAEL because that didn't have the mark of the beast and could not buy nor sell. The goat nations are those that turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the nation of ISRAEL and didn't help them during the tribulation.

I am sure that Douglas Summers will have a better explantion, but this is how I understand the great multitude.

 

[Eugene]

Brother dirtfarmer, would those of Rev 2:17 qualify for eternal life any differently than we do, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus? In other words, what is overcoming the world other than being born of God?
What must I do to be saved?
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Those in your house can be saved the same way.)

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

v10 kept from temptation that will come upon all the earth (tribulation?)

The entire tribulation is in two three and one-half year parts; the hour of temptation, and the the time of Jacob's trouble. Notice something revealing about Philadelphia is the crown they're said to possess in Rev 3:11. Unbelievers certainly do not have crowns.

Do these things that are granted to the seven churches sound as if it is the body of Christ or does it seems like things that will happen during the earthly kingdom that is promised to Israel?

We read in rev 2:7 and other verses to listen to what the Spirit says unto the churches, and that is repeated for all seven churches. Now please allow me to ask how any not born of God hear what the Spirit says?

I wrote this in another pamphlet. (John 3:3), "Jesus answered and said unto him (a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Unless you are born again, you may not be able to see, understand, and believe things written here.

You may ask: how can I know whether I'm born again or not? It is said in (1 John 5:1): "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:" (Christ: the Anointed one or Messiah - The promised Savior of mankind)

 

[Eugene]

I know that I am not Douglas Summers, but I will give you where I believe the "great multitude of Revelation 7:9 & 14 comes from.

No problem brother, and we may both learn; I love it.

In Matthew 25:31-46 we have the judgment of the nations that are left after the "rapture and the marriage supper" of Christ. The nations will be judged as to how they helped or didn't help God's earthly people, the Jews. This is the separation of the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from his goats." The sheep nations are those that helped ISRAEL because that didn't have the mark of the beast and could not buy nor sell. The goat nations are those that turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the nation of ISRAEL and didn't help them during the tribulation.

My personal belief here is that written in 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and Revelation Chapters Two & Three is that judgment pronounced according to our walk in Christ.
We as believers read in Joh 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. If we are no longer associated with the dead, and are seated in the heavens in Christ.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (In this we have overcome the world, and now as we learn to put sin from us, we learn to overcome the habit and dominion in our lives.)
Have you ever read the pamphlet I wrote on Salvation with Security? at least it'll give you a better understanding where I'm coming from.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

 

[Corn Pop]

Judgement did take place at the house of God.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Now above I emboldened the elders who were already in heaven. They were there round about the throne in Rev 4:4, and there were four beasts or living one in Rev 4:6 with Jesus before the temptation even began.

The Levite was the priestly tribe of Israel, but not all Levites were priest. The rest of the Levitical tribe served the priest and take care of the temple. (Num. 1:49-51). While the the Church is a kingdom of priest and kings (1 Pet. 2:8-10) (Rev. 1:6). Those who were not believers that go through the great tribulation who (by the preaching of the 144,00 gospel preaching Jews) anointed by God (Rev. 7:1-8). These, of all nations, will be martyred. And will serve God in the temple day and night and dwell among them. (Rev. 7:15-17) This is not the church, but martyrs of the great tribulation. That is how I understand it. They will serve Him day and night in adoration and fellowship.(Rev. 7:15)
Note* Christ is not saving the world at this time, He is calling out the Church (Rev. 1:1-4:1) which includes the Gentile (Acts 15:13-15 Gentile, The Church) Rapture (Acts 15:16-18 Israel, the nation). (Rom. 9:14-33 is calling out and molding the gentile, making Israel jealous, Rom. 11:13-15) The majority of people saved (that no one can count) will be during the Great tribulation (Rev. 7:9) That is salvation to the world...not the Church. The Church is already with Christ.

 

[Eugene]

Judgement did take place at the house of God.

No more judgment when we walk in the light of the risen Lamb?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? We are in judgment for reward according to our walk.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 18:2 speaking of Babylon, in Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Judgment is all over?)

 

[Eugene]

Brother @Douglas Summers, our brother dirtfarmer in reply #21 mentioned “to him that overcometh power over the nations & will rule with a rod of iron,” and I too believe this is believers that becomes know as the Man Child of Rev 12:5.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (To me these weren’t martyred, but raptured).

We read in Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (This is the heavenly Jerusalem they were caught up to - Heb 12:22)

Notice in Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders. (Some saints were there before them.)

Another interesting fact is in Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (Virgin mankind?). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits (Of Israel?) unto God and to the Lamb. (Remember that these are the 144,000 of Rev 7:1-5, and the great multitude of Rev 7:9 were also before God’s throne prior to them. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Something else is that the middle of the week is not yet come. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (That’s the second half of the tribulation known as Jacob’s trouble - Jer 30:7)

Brother Douglas Summers, talking of the Great Multitude you also said “(Rev. 7:15-17) This is not the church, but martyrs of the great tribulation. That is how I understand it. It says they believed on Jesus being that they were dressed robes washed in the blood of the Lamb, and then these too were raptured before the second half of the week. My understanding is the beheading occurs in the time of the second half of the tribulation.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, (birth of Christ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: (Christ to rule Israel as Son of David) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (At the right hand of God) (To me these weren’t martyred, but raptured).

I think this is the ascension of the risen Christ that defeated Satan as the Son of man.

 

[dirtfarmer]

No problem brother, and we may both learn; I love it.

My personal belief here is that written in 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and Revelation Chapters Two & Three is that judgment pronounced according to our walk in Christ.
We as believers read in Joh 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. If we are no longer associated with the dead, and are seated in the heavens in Christ.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (In this we have overcome the world, and now as we learn to put sin from us, we learn to overcome the habit and dominion in our lives.)
Have you ever read the pamphlet I wrote on Salvation with Security? at least it'll give you a better understanding where I'm coming from.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

hello Eugene, dirtfarmer here

I know that I am born again because of Romans 8:16, the Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am a child, not because of 1 John 5:1-2. There are those that read scripture and believe their salvation rest in scripture but Jesus said that eternal life is in him and not scripture, in John 5:39

Judgement for the world(mankind) has already happen, all are found missing the mark set by God and in need of a savior. Those that have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior has, not will, passed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God's Son.

 

[Eugene]

I think this is the ascension of the risen Christ that defeated Satan as the Son of man.

Yeah, many do. My opposing that view is the three viewpoints John was to write of Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Could this possibly be pointing to Jesus’ birth, or even His ascension? it was written subsequent to both.)

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (This is Jesus after receiving His own throne future to even this present time; it is the Lord’s Day - Rev 1:10.)

 

[Eugene]

There are those that read scripture and believe their salvation rest in scripture but Jesus said that eternal life is in him and not scripture, in John 5:39

Agreed, and that because Jesus was talking to those self-righteous Jews that were seeking to kill Him Jn 5:18; salvation was in Jesus alone.

Judgement for the world(mankind) has already happen, all are found missing the mark set by God and in need of a savior. Those that have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior has, not will, passed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God's Son.

Amen.

 

[Corn Pop]

It really is pointless debating the bible. It doesnt work. The holy spirit seems to tell a billion people a billion different beliefs on scriptures.

Im not mocking the spirit, i'm just saying everyone seems to think they have it yet no Christians can agree on scripture. Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead is about all christians can agree on.

If there is only one true doctrine then a billion people have got it wrong.

 

[Corn Pop]

Adam walks with God then Adam falls. Adam needs a messiah. Jesus comes to reconcile.

From Adam to Christ people were blessed in the flesh for obeying the law even there hearts were crooked because there was no reconcile and the world needed a messiah. That's the old world.

We can walk with God again now. Inside us all we have that conection with God we dont need to follow the law of the old world or need a messiah, you believe in God and know God is love inside yourself. People dont have to do anything, Christ finished it all. God is connected back inside us. That's the good news.

 

[Eugene]

Im not mocking the spirit, i'm just saying everyone seems to think they have it yet no Christians can agree on scripture. Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead is about all christians can agree on.
If there is only one true doctrine then a billion people have got it wrong.

Of course we have it wrong. Otherwise there would be no point in studying to show ourselves approved. God could have made it so we believe on Christ, and immediately go to heaven. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Out of the Church a bride is being qualified proved by her works according to Rev 19:7, and that can only be done as she grows in grace and knowledge of Jesus. Truth is gained precept by precept; here a little, and there a little.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he (The LORD) teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their (Israel's) heart.
But we are not them.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Corn Pop]

We dont need to follow the law of the bible, we dont need a messiah. Adam has been reconciled.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Yeah, many do. My opposing that view is the three viewpoints John was to write of Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Hey Eugene, The Revelation is not always in a chronological order, It goes back and forth in different epochs. Everything after (Rev. 4:1) is here after the Church. It is worthy to note that the Revelation of Jesus The Christ is not in relation of His coming for the Church, as in 1 Thessalonians, ("The day of the Lord") but to His return to the Earth (Rev. 1:7).

 

[Eugene]

The Revelation is not always in a chronological order, It goes back and forth in different epochs.

You are correct Douglas. The book of Revelation isn’t necessarily presented in chronological order as the following scriptures reveal, but speaking of the same ones in different settings expands the conclusion of things John was shown if I’m saying it right.
Revelation 6:9. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 15:2-3. "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Everything after (Rev. 4:1) is here after the Church.

I would narrow it to say that everything after Rev 4:1, "things which shall be hereafter" are shown to John from that time forward, and yet portions of the Church are yet to come on the heavenly scene. i.e., the Great Multitude shown before the throne in Revelation Chapter Seven.

It is worthy to note that the Revelation of Jesus The Christ is not in relation of His coming for the Church, as in 1 Thessalonians, ("The day of the Lord") but to His return to the Earth (Rev. 1:7).

I'm sorry Douglass, but I don't understand your meaning here. To me the catching up, or rapture of different ones of the body of Christ told us in 1 Thes 4:16-17 reveals the manner of the resurrection of meeting the Lord in the air; not earth. When will our Lord reign again on earth?

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm sorry Douglass, but I don't understand your meaning here. To me the catching up, or rapture of different ones of the body of Christ told us in 1 Thes 4:16-17 reveals the manner of the resurrection of meeting the Lord in the air; not earth. When will our Lord reign again on earth?

That is correct, but Revelation is in relation to the Lords return to the earth. The Church is already raptured at Rev. 4:1. The Lord will return to the earth to reign as The Son of David over Israel for 1000 year (Rev. 20:1-5)....and then forevermore. (Revelations Chapter 21)

 

[Corn Pop]

I will sit on the side line. When you all agree let me know.