Revelation 4

[th1b.taylor]

Revelation of Christ to John 4:1: (KJV)
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


In Rev. 1:10 and here, once more we see that although it is a much debated issue, John, himself, states that he was in the spirit. We must be very careful when we run off and pretend that we can interpret the scriptures, we can not do that! In 1Cor. 4:1 we see that we, who have devoted ourselves to the service of God hold the key to the scriptures, therefore the Bible is a mystery to the Lost Man. On the day I converted to Christianity I was overcome by or with the Holy Spirit of God and that night, as I read the book that had befuddled me so much before, made perfect sense to me. Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to understand, let alone translate the meaning of a verse of scripture.


Revelation to John 4:2:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3:And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4:And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5:And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


I have not had the need for a precise need for an explanation of just who the twenty-four elders, seated around the throne of God are and I´ll not try to pull your leg and lie to you, I don´t know, nor do I need to know. God does not request that we have faith, He demands it! And here I´ll elect to leave this for the future, when and if God chooses to reveal it. The fact of the matter is that we see here that Heaven is a beautiful place beyond all we can imagine.


And in verse 5 we find that seven lamps mentioned before are before the throne, the seven Spirits of God. During my twenty-one years as a Christian I have witnessed the lamp being removed twice from Church Bodies, it is a terrible event, the church just drifts without clear direction. Just as we see in Daniel, when he fasted and prayed himself, almost to exhaustion, God´s messenger was delayed fighting the Prince of Persia, this is a Spiritual Being, a human cannot delay an angel. Every nation, church, Mom & Pop Store and person has a Spiritual Being guiding and protecting them. These are either from God or from Satan but it is just as the scripture teaches, we war against Spiritual Beings. We must, everyone of us learn to bow our knees to our LORD and Master... now!


Revelation to John 4:6:
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7:And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8:And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


We must learn, and I say once more, must learn, to properly worship God. I have never seen these beasts but I do find the fact that they worship God in all they do to be an important example of what we are to model our lives after. Since the event of my indwelling with the Holy Spirit of God, all I have done, I have done with Him in mind. So many today go to church on Sunday and they play Church and then live like Hell the rest of the week.


If a man or a woman is saved they are indwelt with the Spirit of God. They become Carnal, as I understand it, when they quench that Spirit. They, however, might not be quenching the Spirit at all, they might not be saved! It is at this point that one must do a Spiritual Inventory, seemingly, the most dreaded action one can undertake today. Do we fear the truth?


Revelation to John 4:9:And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10:The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11:Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Often today, when I teach on why I sign my signature with Bond Servant, I am informed they they, any number of folks, owe God nothing, they are saved by grace! This has also, often, left me shaking my head, side to side! There is not a thing that we have that God did not create the materials it was made from, it all, all of it belongs to God and that includes my body! It is my glory that I am His Bond Servant.


When we study the scriptures we find that Bond Servants (Employees) were common in Bible times and if they lived better than when they were free, they had an ear pierced with an awl to mark themselves as a willing servant to their Master. We do not that custom today but if my LORD were to ask it, I would proudly have it done. We must learn to submit and we must do so completely.

 

[Gazelle]

I believe that chapter four of Revelation begins the prophetical future. Remember chapter 1, verse 19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

That text presented three tenses and showed that the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order: the past- chapter 1; the present-chapters 2 and 3 (the history of the seven churches to the present time); and the future-chapters 4 through 22.

In verse one After this,(the completion of the history of the 7 churches) John sees a door opened in heaven and hears a trumpet-like voice loudly and victoriously crying, Come up hither. I believe that this is the Rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

The Bible also clearly teaches that there is a difference between the Rapture and the Revelation of Christ. We need to fully understand this truth because it is the basis for understanding the Book of Revelation, prophetical truth, and the placement of signs. Simply stated, there are two aspects, or stages, in the process of Christ's second coming, and both begin with the letter "r." We have already designated the first phase as the Rapture. The second phase is called the Revelation. Chapter 4 describes phase one, while phase two is described in chapter 19. The intervening chapters - 6 through 18 - basically cover a seven-year period called the Tribulation. The Rapture (chapter 4) precedes the Tribulation, and the Revelation (chapter 19) follows the seven-year period of judgment. Chapter 4 is a meeting in the air, whereas chapter 19 is a return to the earth. Chapter 4 removes the believer from the judgments described in chapters 6 through 18, and chapter 19 restores the believer to his earthly sojourn as he returns with Christ to planet earth. The Come up hither of Revelation 4:1 is synonymous with the call of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17:

JVIM.com

Hope the quote is okay, I couldn't have said it better ;)

It isn't just John caught up in the spirit, but all the believers. You don't hear of the "Church" again until in Revelation chapter 19, when we return with Christ to the earth.

You're covering a lot of ground in a hurry...am I missing something in the method?

I think it's very important to realize who the 24 elders "are"...

chapter 4, verse 10 states: The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever; and cast their crowns before the throne.

The believers have crowns to cast at Christ's feet...
When will believers be crowned? Immediately after the Rapture. Proof: Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just (Luke 14:14). Again: And when the chief Shepherd shall appear , ye shall receive a crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4)

This is after the judgment seat of Christ takes place, where believers re rewarded for their life following Christ (or not.)

One of the crowns we may receive is for watching with anticipation the imminent return of Christ and rapture of the saints. So it's not a small thing to be studying and watching for this event!

Regardless of the view one holds, the four and twenty elders represent the children of God in the presence of the Lord, before the horrible Tribulation begins in chapter 6. A preview of the judgment about to be unleashed upon the entire globe is found in the following verse.

Ibid.

A glorious time in heaven... praising and worshipping the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Holy, Holy, Holy)! :yes

 

[smaller]

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

For the record the 24 Elders or Pillars are as follows.

The 12 Tribes of Israel represented in the text of the Old Testament.

The 12 Apostles handpicked by God in Christ to envelope the whole world.

There are your Elders. Old and New.

The names of the people of Israel are inscribed on the Pearly Gates right here:

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Our 'entrance' into Heaven was first prescribed in the Old Testament through the children of Israel, written as Pearls of Wisdom to those whom God grants understanding.

The 12 Apostles are the Pillars of Christ in Whom was All Revealing in the New Testament, the culmination of Living Word handed down to all of us subsequently to be joined therein.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gazelle,
The manner in which you have explained it may, and I make special note of may, be correct but it is sad! In my classes I do not teach theologians and neither do I expect to do so on the web, they are all well enough trained so as to run circles around me! Your offering is sad because there are 18 more chapters before they can be surmised and have any impact on 99.99% of the world today. Your untimely summary serves no purpose but to discourage people from learning, they´ll just conclude that they have no chance to be as smart as you.

Smaller,
I wish that I had been to Heaven and visited the Throne Room so I could be as dogmatic as you, but, alas, Iḿ just a Holy Spirit inspired teacher and must not be as blessed as you.

 

[Gazelle]

My humble apologies. I indeed thought this was a study of which I was interested in participating. I'm new to the site.

We are blessed when we study Revelation, from all viewpoints I suspect. I will refrain from participating in your threads in the future, if you wish (though I might forget at some point.)

Be well.

 

[th1b.taylor]

My humble apologies. I indeed thought this was a study of which I was interested in participating. I'm new to the site.

We are blessed when we study Revelation, from all viewpoints I suspect. I will refrain from participating in your threads in the future, if you wish (though I might forget at some point.)

Be well.

Participation is always welcomed but I teach on a fifth grade level. Number one reason is it keeps me from becoming arrogant, number two because there are millions of children that surf these sites and number three, better than 99% of the people that have graduated college can not read or speak above a fifth grade level. Since I quit trying to keep my men alive, in November of ´69, I have gotten soft and spend my time in my wheel chair or in my Electric Scooter but I do still want to keep men alive and hence my ministry on the Internet.

Hoping your as thick skinned as an old fossil... oh... welcome! But be careful, there´s snipers in those trees there and the 120 rockets are due any time now.

 

[Acebopata]

Indeed, you speak thy truth which sets all free.

 

[Stormcrow]

Gazelle,
The manner in which you have explained it may, and I make special note of may, be correct but it is sad! In my classes I do not teach theologians and neither do I expect to do so on the web, they are all well enough trained so as to run circles around me! Your offering is sad because there are 18 more chapters before they can be surmised and have any impact on 99.99% of the world today. Your untimely summary serves no purpose but to discourage people from learning, they´ll just conclude that they have no chance to be as smart as you.

Smaller,
I wish that I had been to Heaven and visited the Throne Room so I could be as dogmatic as you, but, alas, Iḿ just a Holy Spirit inspired teacher and must not be as blessed as you.

You still haven't addressed the questions I put to you in the other thread. It seems to me someone so lead and instructed by the Holy Spirit should have no problem answering the simple questions asked by a "Satan Seed." And, BTW, I told no lies about you. I only quoted what you wrote.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You still haven't addressed the questions I put to you in the other thread. It seems to me someone so lead and instructed by the Holy Spirit should have no problem answering the simple questions asked by a "Satan Seed." And, BTW, I told no lies about you. I only quoted what you wrote.

Sir,
I watched that thread for a bit and I witnessed some very childish behavior on both your parts. I do my best not to act like Satan, just as I explained over there. Now, here you come charging like a bull once more... You deserve no answer until you learn how to humble that bull you´re on! You could have made this statement in many forms but you chose strength, arrogance and personal pride for you chips to play with, still no answers here.

 

[jasoncran]

i have learned not to assume that just because in chapter 4 theres no mention of the church doesnt mean that its not there in the tribulation.

i find it odd that the "tribbers" assume that god would bless them so much that they miss all the trials of what we are called to doing,saving the lost.,jesus himself died for the lost, and we are no greater then he. Gods wrath is poured out yes and we arent going to get that. heres one way of looking at things and i heard it from a amillienist pastor. what if in matthew 24 the lord was saying that the lost and sinners were going to be removed and not the righteous? theres a case for that as only noah was saved and the sinners were judged. could it be that God slays the wicked and leaves the saints?

God didnt say church i am not going to let satan kill you, he said satan wouldnt overcome the church and he hasnt nor shall he ever. so there wont be any church in the tribulation? me thinks there will be and they will be just like us. who will be there to teach them that the seven yrs will end(which violates the no man knoweth the hour vs as you have a countdown from the time of the rapture or the appeareance of the ac.). or what the bible does say? theres much that we dont know.God wants us to be ready always.

again keep this clean. for the record i am not a pretribber or any tribber. i am not a preterist. i lean toward a type of ac lying to isreal and decieving the world and a rapture of sorts. temporaly i have laid my studies of eschatology aside.

 

[th1b.taylor]

i have learned not to assume that just because in chapter 4 theres no mention of the church doesnt mean that its not there in the tribulation.

i find it odd that the "tribbers" assume that god would bless them so much that they miss all the trials of what we are called to doing,saving the lost.,jesus himself died for the lost, and we are no greater then he. Gods wrath is poured out yes and we arent going to get that. heres one way of looking at things and i heard it from a amillienist pastor. what if in matthew 24 the lord was saying that the lost and sinners were going to be removed and not the righteous? theres a case for that as only noah was saved and the sinners were judged. could it be that God slays the wicked and leaves the saints?

God didnt say church i am not going to let satan kill you, he said satan wouldnt overcome the church and he hasnt nor shall he ever. so there wont be any church in the tribulation? me thinks there will be and they will be just like us. who will be there to teach them that the seven yrs will end(which violates the no man knoweth the hour vs as you have a countdown from the time of the rapture or the appeareance of the ac.). or what the bible does say? theres much that we dont know.God wants us to be ready always.

again keep this clean. for the record i am not a pretribber or any tribber. i am not a preterist. i lean toward a type of ac lying to isreal and decieving the world and a rapture of sorts. temporaly i have laid my studies of eschatology aside.

Jason, that is one of the three prominent views... it is the least of the three and of the Amillenists, your particular take would seem to be the least again. My advise is for you to cease being taught by men and to surrender your life, all seven and twenty-four a week and see what the Holy Spirit has for you as you study the passages.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, that is one of the three prominent views... it is the least of the three and of the Amillenists, your particular take would seem to be the least again. My advise is for you to cease being taught by men and to surrender your life, all seven and twenty-four a week and see what the Holy Spirit has for you as you study the passages.

that doesnt make them right, and lol. sir, the idea of a pre-trib or any trib didnt exist till the mid 1800's.

look up the older theologians whereby protestants came from, and so you assume just because i reject what the churches here taught that it wasnt by the holy spirit?

so again reconcile the idea that if the rapture happened to day that my family who would be left behind hasnt a clue on the bible and would read that book or bible verse and reads no man knoweth the hour and discovers the from the time of rapture till the lord return at harmegiddo is seven yrs. he indeed has the date to know when the lord returns

and then theres this
luke 21

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

so there wont be saints on the earth when this stuff happens? no sinners saved in the tribulation?

i have to go but there is a verse whereby it says clearly pray ye that might be worthy to escape the judgment when the lord returns with his saints.. why would paul say that then to the church that is to be raptured and what would that mean to the soles saved.

a church will be around in the tribulation.

 

[reba]

Taylor,

If you would like a place to post thoughts without anyone disagreeing with you or offering a different opinion that can be arranged. reba

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.


To the others here this is a open thread you are welcome to post. Or start another thread.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
I wish that I had been to Heaven and visited the Throne Room so I could be as dogmatic as you, but, alas, Iḿ just a Holy Spirit inspired teacher and must not be as blessed as you.

Oh, you are certainly welcome to any alternative view. I've about heard them all.

Rev. is an odd book. I've seen believers go in there, take a particular slant, and then disagree with everyone over every word of same.

Rev. is meant to be a trap for many.

s

 

[th1b.taylor]

that doesnt make them right, and lol. sir, the idea of a pre-trib or any trib didnt exist till the mid 1800's.

look up the older theologians whereby protestants came from, and so you assume just because i reject what the churches here taught that it wasnt by the holy spirit?

Jason,
I am sorry but you see, I admit that I am no smarter than you but you see, we both know one who is! And back before I began to lead men andf to teach them how to survive the living hell on earth i discovered one fact that has never failed to be true. Because of that truth I have learned, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to humble myself and to know when to stand flat footed on the Word of God and not move. The thing about people is they ¨will¨ disappoint you and God, if you will submit your whole self to Him, will not!

And if you´ve ever read the scriptures through you know that God has authored the Bible to be a mystery to the lost man and while i make myself unpopular by saying this truth, here it is. If you are not indwelt with, some call it baptized in, the Holy Spirit, you are not saved and it is not possible to understand the Bible.

Paul taught us to be like the Bereans and to check the Teacher/Preacher against the scriptures, daily! i admit to being a Maverick, in this world today, I have been known to get right up in the preacher´s face when he lies and I know it based on scripture. You can not possibly know if you are being led down a rosy path if you do not, yourself, study to show yourself approved. And without the, moment by moment leading of the Holy Spirit, 24/7 you are not and will not ever be equipped.

so again reconcile the idea that if the rapture happened to day that my family who would be left behind hasnt a clue on the bible and would read that book or bible verse and reads no man knoweth the hour and discovers the from the time of rapture till the lord return at harmegiddo is seven yrs. he indeed has the date to know when the lord returns

and then theres this
luke 21


so there wont be saints on the earth when this stuff happens? no sinners saved in the tribulation?

i have to go but there is a verse whereby it says clearly pray ye that might be worthy to escape the judgment when the lord returns with his saints.. why would paul say that then to the church that is to be raptured and what would that mean to the soles saved.

a church will be around in the tribulation.

Here, once more, Individual Bible Study, lead by the Holy Spirit is essential. All that you have jumped the gun and tried to place in my mouth is incorrect! There are people saved in those seven years, without the Holy Spirit, that become Martyrs for Christ but the Church, from my studies, is Raptured out and in Heaven for the Wedding Feast pictured in Matt. 22:2-14.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Taylor,

If you would like a place to post thoughts without anyone disagreeing with you or offering a different opinion that can be arranged. reba

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.


To the others here this is a open thread you are welcome to post. Or start another thread.

Reba,
Thank you but no. I recently released the moderation on my BLOG because it is dull there and I realized that there is no sharpening of the sword going on there.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,
I am sorry but you see, I admit that I am no smarter than you but you see, we both know one who is! And back before I began to lead men andf to teach them how to survive the living hell on earth i discovered one fact that has never failed to be true. Because of that truth I have learned, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to humble myself and to know when to stand flat footed on the Word of God and not move. The thing about people is they ¨will¨ disappoint you and God, if you will submit your whole self to Him, will not!

And if you´ve ever read the scriptures through you know that God has authored the Bible to be a mystery to the lost man and while i make myself unpopular by saying this truth, here it is. If you are not indwelt with, some call it baptized in, the Holy Spirit, you are not saved and it is not possible to understand the Bible.

Paul taught us to be like the Bereans and to check the Teacher/Preacher against the scriptures, daily! i admit to being a Maverick, in this world today, I have been known to get right up in the preacher´s face when he lies and I know it based on scripture. You can not possibly know if you are being led down a rosy path if you do not, yourself, study to show yourself approved. And without the, moment by moment leading of the Holy Spirit, 24/7 you are not and will not ever be equipped.


Here, once more, Individual Bible Study, lead by the Holy Spirit is essential. All that you have jumped the gun and tried to place in my mouth is incorrect! There are people saved in those seven years, without the Holy Spirit, that become Martyrs for Christ but the Church, from my studies, is Raptured out and in Heaven for the Wedding Feast pictured in Matt. 22:2-14.

i have , my church is doing a study on revalation for the womans group the pastor preached about matthew 24. i have read the bible. my main issue is when the pretribbers asume by well presumption of racial charachteristic of a race which i am a member of (jewish) that the 144k will be evangelists , when nothing of the case is made. they are even listed as teaching nor preaching but i have heard many pastors say such.

i will if my step-daughter goes i will ask her to take notes and study them or the references he gives.

i am not so high minded that i think i know it all. like the creation debate eschatology has a depth that forces me to be at awe of Gods timing and wisdom.

 

[th1b.taylor]

i have , my church is doing a study on revalation for the womans group the pastor preached about matthew 24. i have read the bible. my main issue is when the pretribbers asume by well presumption of racial charachteristic of a race which i am a member of (jewish) that the 144k will be evangelists , when nothing of the case is made. they are even listed as teaching nor preaching but i have heard many pastors say such.

You will note, please, the red I have marked in your statement. Now... I ask you to remember, I am never dogmatic in my teaching of the Revelation and at the same time, to remember that I have devoted the past 21+ years to constant study of the Word. As a New convert, I was curious and I studied all three main catagories (none of the subcategories) to figure my personal stance. i am a Pre-Tribber because, although all three divisions are scripturally sound, this position was the one the Holy Spirit marked for me to take.

From past, childish errors, I set the time table for the End Time Events and after I washed the egg and the mud of my face, I repented and prayed for God to whip the thunder out of me if I ever became so foolish as to set Him aside again.

Now, I am often perceived as being rude for this next comment, but as I have noted many times, I teach on a fifth grade level for the same reason newspapers are written to that level, any more elevated and you drop you audience and we must not run down rabbit trails, that is where we are right now. The only marked reference to the Rapture in chapters 3 & 4 is the Spiritual calling of John to come up hither! That requires a good deal of convolution to make that Assumption and i have chosen not to deny the possibility but I do not want to take the chance of dishonoring God and being wrong either.

i will if my step-daughter goes i will ask her to take notes and study them or the references he gives.

i am not so high minded that i think i know it all. like the creation debate eschatology has a depth that forces me to be at awe of Gods timing and wisdom.

That is a very good position to take there, none o us are that smart... we are not God.

 

[Acebopata]

All I know is that the rapture is real, and we must prepare for it, because the prophetic signs are occurring all around us.

 

[Stormcrow]

Rev. is meant to be a trap for many.

Fact check: It's meant to be a blessing to all who read it, especially to those for whom it was written.