Revelation 4

[Acebopata]

Fact check: It's meant to be a blessing to all who read it, especially to those for whom it was written.

I agree!

 

[jasoncran]

taylor tell me why do you believe the 144k are evangelists? and how will the trib saints learn of the messiah saving power and who will teach them?

does the angel do it right after the rapture? if so where is that stated plainly? remember if its so clear then it should be for all to see like this" behold i come as a thief in the night" i have asked this questions to a pre-tribber who is like me asking and he is honest to agree with me on the 144k and he thinks the angels do it but he agrees that we dont know it all. jesus like the first time came in a way that the jews who read the tanakh didnt get and the apostles who were with him didnt know till after he died(it really sank in after their hs expercience ). so shall it be when he comes again.

 

[Stormcrow]

taylor tell me why do you believe the 144k are evangelists?

I'll address this as Taylor doesn't seem to be interested in answering people's questions.

There is nothing in Revelation (or anywhere else) that tells us who or what these people are other than being "the elect." As to why they are the elect is very simple: throughout every judgment God brought upon the Children of Israel, he promised that a remnant would survive. We see this theme repeated throughout the Old Testament, but nowhere is this more analogous to Revelation than in the book of Ezekiel (chapter 9), where we see God telling an angel to mark the elect prior to Jerusalem's destruction by the Babylonians:

{4} The LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." {5} But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. {6} "Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary." So they started with the elders who were before the temple. Ezekiel 9:4-6 (NASB)

This is repeated in Revelation prior to Jerusalem's destruction by the Romans:

{3} saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." Revelation 7:3 (NASB)

{1} Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 (NASB)

The history of the judgment that befell Jerusalem under the Babylonians was repeated by the Romans and with it, all the promises of God to save a remnant.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'll address this as Taylor doesn't seem to be interested in answering people's questions.

Now, both of you have stepped off into an abyss. I did not answer because he put words into my mouh that I never said nor did I publish them and your answer does not come from the scripture and your teaching that it does or that the Bible alludes to your answer being correct is not true and that, while minor, in this case, is heresy. The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

That has not, yet, been discussed and that is the other reason for no answer. i do my very best to do things in a Godly manor and God does things in order and not shot-gun style.

 

[jasoncran]

Now, both of you have stepped off into an abyss. I did not answer because he put words into my mouh that I never said nor did I publish them and your answer does not come from the scripture and your teaching that it does or that the Bible alludes to your answer being correct is not true and that, while minor, in this case, is heresy. The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

That has not, yet, been discussed and that is the other reason for no answer. i do my very best to do things in a Godly manor and God does things in order and not shot-gun style.

ok you claimed to be a pre tribber. most pretribbers teach this. my pastor teaches this, and most pastors do.

its doubtful that on your own and by yourself that without any commentaries you came to that conclusion without hearing from some pastor in a church.i came from a jw back ground.

i asked my pastor then on what was the rapture. and he told me in brief. sadly today few churches teach revalation. most dont touch it. and preach your view. i have learned from those that did teach and tried to attend the studies when i can.

so do forgive me as most of the pretribbers see it that way. if not the 144k is the angel ? or does the holy spirit still work on the earth.

this is what i heard

1) the trib period will be like the ot
2) the trib period will be like the ot and also the holy spirit via the 144k and or angel will save
3) both and will work on the earth

so which is it?

 

[th1b.taylor]

ok you claimed to be a pre tribber. most pretribbers teach this. my pastor teaches this, and most pastors do.

its doubtful that on your own and by yourself that without any commentaries you came to that conclusion without hearing from some pastor in a church.i came from a jw back ground.

i asked my pastor then on what was the rapture. and he told me in brief. sadly today few churches teach revalation. most dont touch it. and preach your view. i have learned from those that did teach and tried to attend the studies when i can.

so do forgive me as most of the pretribbers see it that way. if not the 144k is the angel ? or does the holy spirit still work on the earth.

this is what i heard

1) the trib period will be like the ot
2) the trib period will be like the ot and also the holy spirit via the 144k and or angel will save
3) both and will work on the earth

so which is it?

First of all, I have explained that the fourth chapter has nothing to do with your question and I have indicated, I believe, that the acid tone needs to be dropped! And I am not required to play by your rules so if you take your Bible and o home... well, that will make a statement! I spent a few years dealing with intentional disruptive and insubordinate junior like yourself and you are going to be dealt with in like manor, when I get to that lesson, it will be discussed.

 

[reba]

Jason,
I am sorry but you see, I admit that I am no smarter than you but you see, we both know one who is! And back before I began to lead men andf to teach them how to survive the living hell on earth i discovered one fact that has never failed to be true. Because of that truth I have learned, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to humble myself and to know when to stand flat footed on the Word of God and not move. The thing about people is they ¨will¨ disappoint you and God, if you will submit your whole self to Him, will not!

And if you´ve ever read the scriptures through you know that God has authored the Bible to be a mystery to the lost man and while i make myself unpopular by saying this truth, here it is. If you are not indwelt with, some call it baptized in, the Holy Spirit, you are not saved and it is not possible to understand the Bible.

Paul taught us to be like the Bereans and to check the Teacher/Preacher against the scriptures, daily! i admit to being a Maverick, in this world today, I have been known to get right up in the preacher´s face when he lies and I know it based on scripture. You can not possibly know if you are being led down a rosy path if you do not, yourself, study to show yourself approved. And without the, moment by moment leading of the Holy Spirit, 24/7 you are not and will not ever be equipped.


Here, once more, Individual Bible Study, lead by the Holy Spirit is essential. All that you have jumped the gun and tried to place in my mouth is incorrect! There are people saved in those seven years, without the Holy Spirit, that become Martyrs for Christ but the Church, from my studies, is Raptured out and in Heaven for the Wedding Feast pictured in Matt. 22:2-14.

These martyrs are they saved by the Blood of the Lamb?

 

[th1b.taylor]

These martyrs are they saved by the Blood of the Lamb?

Yes mam, as I have been taught, by the Spirit, there is only one path and it is not only narrow but is also under the blood of our Savior.

 

[reba]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



Yet you say they will not have the Holy Spirit? What am i missing?

 

[Sinthesis]

If you are not indwelt with, some call it baptized in, the Holy Spirit, you are not saved and it is not possible to understand the Bible.

There are people saved in those seven years, without the Holy Spirit, that become Martyrs for Christ but the Church, from my studies, is Raptured out and in Heaven for the Wedding Feast pictured in Matt. 22:2-14.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements.

 

[Stormcrow]

your answer does not come from the scripture and your teaching that it does or that the Bible alludes to your answer being correct is not true and that, while minor, in this case, is heresy. The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Of course they are Jews! What part of "the elect" and "Children of Israel" isn't true or is "heresy?"

{22} "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:22 (NASB)

Most people miss something that any careful reading of Matthew and Revelation will reveal: Revelation harmonizes perfectly with the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements.

Ditto.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements.

These two statements are in relation to two different periods of history. The first is exclusive to the present and the past two thousand years. The other is relative, exclusively, to the Seven Year Great Tribulation Period.

I hope that helps.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



Yet you say they will not have the Holy Spirit? What am i missing?

II Thes. 2::6-8 The Holy Spirit´s presence restrains the revealing of Satan until such time as he is removed. To clarify a bit: It will be more as it was in the Old Testiment when men were overcome with the Spirit but in that time, the Spirit would depart and it is my opinion that once one is saved in the Trib. Period that the Spirit will not depart from that person, right up to their execution. Great question, I should have covered that in the OP.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements.

i was taught that by some believers and yet when i thought of that later it kinda doesnt make sense.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Of course they are Jews! What part of "the elect" and "Children of Israel" isn't true or is "heresy?"

{22} "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:22 (NASB)

Most people miss something that any careful reading of Matthew and Revelation will reveal: Revelation harmonizes perfectly with the Olivet Discourse.

Okay, now that I know what you are referring to, for certain, I owe you a public retraction and apology. I am sorry but, in most circles, today, the ¨elect¨ are considered to be Christians. In the light you have now shed on your usage of the term, I apologize and you are correct.

 

[Stormcrow]

Okay, now that I know what you are referring to, for certain, I owe you a public retraction and apology. I am sorry but, in most circles, today, the ¨elect¨ are considered to be Christians. In the light you have now shed on your usage of the term, I apologize and you are correct.

Apology graciously and humbly accepted.