Revelation Chapter 17

John is once more caught up in the Spirit as this angel shows him the future judgment of Mystery Babylon who is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. Mystery Babylon is described first as a great whore that sits on many waters. She is a mystery to John when the vision was given to him, but now made very clear since the sixteenth century Reformation.

The woman is arrayed in purple and scarlet colors. These are the main colors of the revived Roman Empire. The woman is the city of Rome known as Vatican City and the scarlet beast is the spiritual and worldly empire it controls being that of the Roman Catholic Church and all its believers through out the nations.

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[JLB]

Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all before 70AD. Jesus is speaking of future events that the disciples would start seeing in their lifetime, but yet will increase in every generation.

Yes, future events that Jesus taught His disciples about which can be found in Zechariah 14.


The Lord Himself spoke through the mouth of the prophet Zechariah in speaking forth the things associated with His coming and the end of the age.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2


The nations (not Roman soldiers) will surround Jerusalem to battle against her, for it is the Lord Himself that gathers them.


Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:3-4


The Lord Himself will fight against those nations, (unlike 70 AD).

He Himself will stand on the mount of Olives, the very mount of Olives from which He gave His Discourse about His coming and the end of the age.


Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

This is plainly the Second Coming of Christ when He returns with His saints from heaven, to gather His people from the four corners of heaven and earth, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


Jesus will destroy those nations who battle against Jerusalem, unlike 70 AD when General Titus was victorious and returned to Rome and became Emperror.


And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12


As we see, the coming of the Lord and the end of the age, when He gathers the nations to battle against Jerusalem and destroys them s still future.


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 describe the events of Zechariah.


It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:9-10




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

This is plainly the Second Coming of Christ when He returns with His saints from heaven, to gather His people from the four corners of heaven and earth, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

I have to disagree with this as we, the saints alive or in the grave at His coming are not the army from heaven that follow Jesus. When we read Matthew 24:29-31 and what you gave in Mark 13:24-27 It says every eye will see Him coming in the clouds and then He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are His own, alive or in the grave as at the time of His coming we are then caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Yes, future events that Jesus taught His disciples about which can be found in Zechariah 14.


The Lord Himself spoke through the mouth of the prophet Zechariah in speaking forth the things associated with His coming and the end of the age.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2


The nations (not Roman soldiers) will surround Jerusalem to battle against her, for it is the Lord Himself that gathers them.


Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:3-4


The Lord Himself will fight against those nations, (unlike 70 AD).

He Himself will stand on the mount of Olives, the very mount of Olives from which He gave His Discourse about His coming and the end of the age.


Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

This is plainly the Second Coming of Christ when He returns with His saints from heaven, to gather His people from the four corners of heaven and earth, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.


“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


Jesus will destroy those nations who battle against Jerusalem, unlike 70 AD when General Titus was victorious and returned to Rome and became Emperror.


And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12


As we see, the coming of the Lord and the end of the age, when He gathers the nations to battle against Jerusalem and destroys them s still future.


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 describe the events of Zechariah.


It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:9-10




JLB

And it just so happens to take place at the same time the king of the north goes forth to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:44 NIV: But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

 

[JLB]

And it just so happens to take place at the same time the king of the north goes forth to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:44 NIV: But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

Again, if you would actually read the Bible, rather than the commentaries from Bible Hub, you would know the king of the North is the antichrist.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. Daniel 11:36-37






JLB

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Again, if you would actually read the Bible, rather than the commentaries from Bible Hub, you would know the king of the North is the antichrist.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. Daniel 11:36-37






JLB

I do read the Bible. Ive memorized Alot of it.
That's how I know what an antichrist is.
John, who is the only person in the Bible to write the word antichrist(4 times) said an antichrist is someone who denies Jesus is the christ. John said there were many Antichrists in his day.
The king of the north is not described by Daniel as being an antichrist. He is described as being a narcissist. That's someone who admires and thinks highly of himself.He worships himself.
Someone like Donald Trump or Putin would fit that mold.

 

[JLB]

The king of the north is not described by Daniel as being an antichrist.

Antichrist is one of many terms given by scripture to the false messiah of the end time.

The man of sin
son of perdition
the Antichrist
the king of the North
the little horn
the prince who is to come
the lawless one
the beast


Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 13:11-18




JLB

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Antichrist is one of many terms given by scripture to the false messiah of the end time.

The man of sin
son of perdition
the Antichrist
the king of the North
the little horn
the prince who is to come
the lawless one
the beast


Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 13:11-18




JLB

The two beasts are not the same.
It's like saying the Israeli leaders who judged Christ and condemned him to death is the same as he Romans who killed him for them.
Two different beasts.
Although Pilot orderd Christ' death, he never denies that he is the Christ. In fact he said Christ is the king of Israel.
The Jews leaders who condemned Jesus for blasphemy were antichrist denying Jesus is the christ.

 

[JLB]

The two beasts are not the same.

The two beasts are not the same.

The king of the North is another name for the antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition; the lawless one


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Daniel 11:36


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4




JLB

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The two beasts are not the same.

The king of the North is another name for the antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition; the lawless one


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Daniel 11:36


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4




JLB

So if a man says Jesus is the christ, he can also be the antichrist?
Because you really don't know what that man is going to say. Daniel never states he is antichrist nor does Daniel say what the man's says other than he will flatter the Jews.
As for the temple of God. Paul stated the temple of God is the church. He said that while there was yet a temple in Jerusalem.
So be Paul's own words the man is in church.

 

[JLB]

So if a man says Jesus is the christ, he can also be the antichrist?
Because you really don't know what that man is going to say. Daniel never states he is antichrist nor does Daniel say what the man's says other than he will flatter the Jews.
As for the temple of God. Paul stated the temple of God is the church. He said that while there was yet a temple in Jerusalem.
So be Paul's own words the man is in church.

The king of the North is the antichrist.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Daniel 11:36-37

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The king of the North is the antichrist.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Daniel 11:36-37

Well you say he is the antichrist even though there are millions of antichrist in the world.
I suppose since he is a friend of the Israeli goverment and as you know, the Israeli goverment is antichrist as well, they should get along together. But with all the evangelicals in the north, I doubt your going to get him to confess he is the antichrist.

If you don't at least call yourself a Christian and say Jesus is Lord at some time or another, your not going to become king of the north.

 

[JLB]

Well you say he is the antichrist even though there are millions of antichrist in the world.
I suppose since he is a friend of the Israeli goverment and as you know, the Israeli goverment is antichrist as well, they should get along together. But with all the evangelicals in the north, I doubt your going to get him to confess he is the antichrist.

If you don't at least call yourself a Christian and say Jesus is Lord at some time or another, your not going to become king of the north.

What are you talking about?


I plainly stated the king of the North in the book of Daniel, specifically chapter 11:36 is the antichrist; the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is also called the lawless one.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Daniel 11:36-37


Paul says is quoting directly from this passage —


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


I don’t care about evangelicals in the north, or the Israeli government, or any other nonsense.


Im quoting directly from scripture.




JLB

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What are you talking about?


I plainly stated the king of the North in the book of Daniel, specifically chapter 11:36 is the antichrist; the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is also called the lawless one.


Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Daniel 11:36-37


Paul says is quoting directly from this passage —


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


I don’t care about evangelicals in the north, or the Israeli government, or any other nonsense.


Im quoting directly from scripture.




JLB

Your not quoting from scripture.

Daniel nor Paul ever calls anyone an antichrist.
They never mention the word.

 

[Rondmon]

I respectfully disagree as why would John be given these visions to write by the angel Jesus sent to him around 20 years later after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD while being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos.

I'll just get this out of the way, its from the last pages discussions but I will be tidy and place it here. The King of the North in Dan. 11:36-45 is indeed the Anti-Christ. None of the book of Revelation, save Rev. 2 and 3 (Church Age) has happened yet, labels or not, a Preterist is still one who believes that Revelation is about 70 AD and the First Century, it is not.

The book of Revelation is a giant prophetic code book of real events given unto us in code so the world seeing and hearing will still not see nor hear, but we the church knowing the scriptures can dig out these deep truths. We just have to remember, it will have a linear pattern in there, but that doesn't mean God wrote it linear (LOL). Rev. 2-9 is linear, then it jumps to 16, then we get the parenthetical chapters that are other stories that happen at the same time as God's 42 months of Wrath in Rev. 8, 9 and 16. ?(we can add in 15 with 16, it should be one chapter according to Rev. 8's pattern)

Each chapter is a set of events that happen during the Wrath of God, Rev. 2 is mostly prose, it just tells of the coming 7 Thunders (Trumps) which are God's Wrath and how time will never be the same after the 7th Thunder sounds. Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath (Trumps) not the 7 Seals, they are Jesus prophesying what is coming via the Trumps.

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses 1260 day ministry, that overlaps all but 75 days of God's Wrath and the Anti-Christs rule, they show up 75 days before the 1260 Anti-Christ, at the 1335, which simply means 1335 days until all these wonders end, Daniel question in Dan. 12:8 is the sane question the Angel asked in verse 6. How long till these wonders end. This is why the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd woe and the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, even though both have 1260 day ordained offices, if one dies first, they also had tom show up first. When does Israel repent? Zechariah 13:8-9 and 14:1, and Malachi 4:5 both show it happens before the DOTL.

Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start with the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact and last fir 1260 days. We get the Dragon chasing Israel for 1260 days in ch. 12. We get the Beast who rules for 1260 days in ch. 13. We get the Harlot (ALL False Religion of all time) who has ruled with te other 6 Beasts bit oddly gets killed off here in Rev. 17:16 because the Beast wants there to be ONE GOD, him, and he demands to be worshiped by all men. Rev. 18 is simply the whole world getting judged by God, He sees the world as Babylon the Great. (Rev. 16:19 clearly shows this).

Rev. 14 and 19 covers the full 7 years. We see the 144,000 (5 million saved Jews) welcoming Jesus in prose like fashion, thus Jesus now Harvests the wheat. In verses 17-20 we se the wicked grapes get harvested. But in Rev. 14:14 we get a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture. In Rev. 19 we see the bride marrying Jesus in heaven, then we the Church returns with him as Matt. 24:29-31 shows.

This is an overview only. Each chapter has a much deeper meaning unto it.

 

[for_his_glory]

First I am not a preterist nor believe in what they teach. Second nowhere in scripture does it speak of a pretrib Rapture of the Church, being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body. Third I never ask anyone to believe me, but believe that of what has already been written in the scriptures that I have posted.

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5, Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death.

God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapters 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will try and wear out the saints, Daniel 7:25, then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Rondmon]

First I am not a preterist nor believe in what they teach

I placed answers to other points in the reply as I stated, to save time and space. I read most of the posts, and some I skimmed through if too long. I saw you arguing against the Preterist POV. So, I knew that FHG.

Second nowhere in scripture does it speak of a pretrib Rapture of the Church, being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body.

Firstly, why do you expect to see the Rapture in a book about the Jews plight, which will be the Kingdom Age 1000 year reign with Jesus !! Israel only repents as a nation during the 70th week, we see 5 million Jews repent, not 7000 and not 144,000 both were CODES if one knows how to understand God speak. Are there just 10 "Virgin Brides"? Of course not, God used numbers like 10 (Completion) 7 (Divine Completion) 12 (Fulness) and He gives us answers the world seeing can not see and hearing can not hear. So, did God lie? No, 7000, 144,000 and 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 or 5 million since there are 15 million Jews alive today, all mean the same thing. In Zechariah 13:-8-9 we see 1/3 of the end time Jews repent (5 Million) then in the next verse we see the DOTL arrives (Zech. 14:1).

7 (Divine Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 7000 or ALL Israel who repents.

12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents.

The 1/3 we know = at least 5 million Jews who repents. All three are therefore true. Knowing how to dig out God's truths is why we can see the Rapture. The Pharisees who were learned men, could not see Jesus for who he was, but why? Its in the scriptures but they missed it, why? They were looking for a Conquering King, they had too much tunnel vision to see the Suffering Servant also had to come. Likewise, those who cant see the Rapture simple can't see the obvious written in the scriptures via Paul and via TIMING TELLS. The Old Testament is about Israel, Jesus was only sent to Israel, so only Paul's ministry was unto the Gentiles per se to start with. He mentions the Rapture a few times, in 2 Thess. 2 he clearly says the Departure (of the Church) must happen before the DOTL arrives, not Apostacy. Nowhere in the passage is Faith spoken of, but a Gathering unto Jesus is spoken about in the very first verse. The first 7 English versions had departure, not a falling away. Paul said let me tell you a mystery/secret, the word Musterion is used here, it means a Secret because God has shut his mouth, literally!

We have the timing tells also, we see the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened in Rev. 4 and 5. We see the Church marrying the Lamb in Rev. 19 then returning with Jesus whilst the Beast and his armies are still on the earth. We also have demonstrations in the old testament that point us unto the pre trib rapture and Jesus' own words about the Jewish wedding pattern that point unto the pre trib rapture also, and Jesus spoke of it (him returning for his bride etc.), just not openly. Isaiah 53 was sitting right there for all the Pharisees and Israelites to see, but they MISSED IT !!

The 7 Feasts were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals). They tell the whole history of the world and Israel, including the Gentile Church Age did you know this? So, Israel kept these Feasts which were pointing unto their history to come, even the Raptures TIMING oddly enough, and then Israel's repentance, and 1000 year reign with Jesus.

The Spring Feasts Jesus has already fulfilled

1.) Passover (Jesus fulfilled this via his death and blood)

2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin)

3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave)

CONTINUED........

 

[Rondmon]

CONTINUED......

Summer Harvest that Jesus is fulfilling now as we speak

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Summer Harvest/Church Age ( Jesus is our High Priest as we speak, he is the head we are the body. We are currently Harvesting Souls for Jesus Bride to be, the Father is married unto Israel, thus in Rev. 14 they have he Fathers name on their foreheads. Different entities, who both make heaven in the exact same way, by Faith Alone. This Feast was all alone on the Calendar, as is the Church Age !! But the TIMING TELL here is what ends the Feast of Weeks/Harvest is the exact same thing that ends the Church Age, if we study hard, pray and listen we can then dig out all the facts.

Ever hear Jesus say no one knows the Day nor Hour of his return except the Father? You do understand this mandates a Pre Trib Rapture right? Everyone knows Jesus will return on the Beasts 1260th day of rule to take over at the Second Coming. The Beast has exactly 1260 days to rule over Israel, so we will know that day. What Jesus meant probably never occurred to most people tbh. This has to be dug out via much study. The Harvest always ended when the New Year came in !! Thus the New Moon always brought in the new year. Israel was on a Lunar Calendar, or God Time so to speak, and thus they could never know the EXACT Day nor Hour in which their New Year would start via a New Moon, it could happen over a two day period of time, thus they never new the EXACT day nor hour of the new year. So, what ends the Harvest (THINK Church Age) again? The New Year, but how does this tie in with the Rapture one might ask? I will show you. Ever hear of the LAST TRUMP many think this is a Revelation Judgment Trump !! It is not. It has to do with the Harvest Ending every year and the 7 Feasts, Oh boy !! Knowledge is power.

Well, since Israel could not know the exact day nor hour they sent up two witnesses into the mountains to spy out exactly when the new moon came in, as soon as they saw the new moon they sent word back and the Israeli leaders started the Trumps (Shofar) to blowing, they blew in 9 sets of 11, or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP it sounded Longer & Louder than the other 99 and that officially ended the Harvest and ushered in the New Year via the Feasts of Trumps, this also let everyone know that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacles were both nigh at hand. Now THINK, the Last Trump is being used by Paul, a Jew, a former Pharisee, to show that Jesus will END THE HARVEST (Church Age) in the same manner, but BEFORE Israel ATONES and then TABERNACLES with Jesus. Israel atones during the 70th week, just before the DOTL as both Zechariah 13:8-9 an d 14:1 shows and Malachi 4:5 shows. So, the Last Trump is Jesus blowing the Trump, which is really just him calling us home, John says this in Rev. 4:1 Jesus' voice sounded as a Trump, in other words it quivered in a way only those with the holy spirit could hear it. Amen. (See Rev. 4:1, that is the Rapture of the Church). This has to be detailed in order to tie it all together. So, Jesus is fulfilling the Summer Harvest, and that will end with the Last Trump !! )

Fall Feasts yet to be Fulfilled.

5.) Feast of Trumps (Jesus fulfills this by Rapturing his Church as seen in Rev. 4:1 and elsewhere, like 2 Thess. 2:1-3, in 1 Cor. 15, and in 1 Thess. 4.)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who needs to ATONE according to the Daniel 9:24-27 Prophesy before that Prophesies 70 weeks of Judgment can end? Israel, of course. So, God foretold the Spring Feasts via Jesus, who fulfilled them all, he is now fulfilling the Great Harvest via his Church, who will soon be his bride, at the Rapture Jesus/God then turns back to Israel to fulfill the other three Fall Feasts (Holy Convocations/Dress Rehearsals). He does so by blowing the Trump to end the Summer Harvest/Church Age, which puts Israel back on the clock or on God Time so to speak, its a New Year, a page is turned, a new beginning. Now Israel MUST ATONE before the 70th week can end and BEFORE the Wrath of God (DOTL) can fall at the 1260 middle of the week event, which is also when the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth conquering as the Beast. We can see this in Zech. 13:8-9, 2/3 refuse to repent and will die while 1/3 of the Jews repent (ATONE) and they call God their God and He calls them his children again, then in the very next verse, Zech. 14:1 we see the DOTL arrives, so Israel repents then Flees Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area (Rev. 7) just before God's Wrath falls (Rev. 8). Do not mistake the Rev. 6 Seals for God's Wrath, all of the Seals simply open the Scroll of Judgments, that is why Seal #7 is over on Rev. 8. The Seals are Jesus Prophesying what is about to befall mankind. Seals 1-5 is the Anti--Christs 42 month rule as a Beast over Israel, he 1. Conquers for 42 months 2.) Brings War for 42 months 3.) Which bring Famine and finally 4.) His 42 month rule of course brings Sickness, Death and the Grave. 5.) He will also Martyr the Gentile Saints who come to Christ during his 42 month rule, the Jewish Saints are protected. Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING or prophesying about God's soon to come Wrath. This is why Joel 2:31 and Seal #6 BOTH MATCH Trump #4. they are FORETELLING of the Fourth Trump, the Sun and Moon going dark because of an Asteroid Impact. So, as the Scriptures tell us, Israel ATONES and thus Jesus has now fulfilled six of the Feasts. Only one is Feast is left to fulfill after Israel Repents/Atones.

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (To TABERNACLE simply means to DWELL with God, and Jesus, whom is God, will live in Jerusalem heading up the Kingdom Age for 1000 years, and thus Jesus DWELLS with Israel or Israel TABERNACLES with God for 1000 years.

So, understanding the 7 Feasts and THE TIMING TELLS in the bible allows us to understand these deeper secrets in the bible. We can also look at the Jewish Marriage Pattern to understand the Pre Trib Rapture. My calling has been Prophesy for over 37 years. A lot of people not really called unto Prophesy love dabbling in it, but we must understand our unique callings. I love preaching Salvation, of course, its the greatest miracle of all, but God called me specifically unto Prophecy after salvation of souls preaching, which is always first for everyone of us.

I will answer the rest later, this is to long tbh, but these things have to be explained in depth, people seemingly can't see them, or they have tunnel vision, as I have had on things in the past, my A-1 ability now is to understand when I am wrong on something, I got this gift via prayer one night whilst asking God why the Church was so confused on end time understandings, having 100s of understandings on who Babylon is, who the 144,000 are, what the Beast is etc. etc. when in reality there is only one true answer, so I wanted to know why in these end times, when God promised Daniel he would reveal all unto His Saints, we the Church have so much disagreement amongst us and the Lord was like "Ron, you guys already know it all". I knew instantly that meant we needed to simply ASK God, and quit relying on old men's traditions, which was a fault the Pharisees had according to Jesus !! So, now I put off all former understandings about 7 years ago and I simply ask God to show me His true understandings, AND I wrestle God for the answer, in other words I refuse to quit until I get the Holy Spirits answer on anything !! And I always get the answer, because God wants to reveal all of these things in these end times unto us.

I will maybe put forth the Jewish Wedding Pattern at another time.

God Bless.

 

[for_his_glory]

I placed answers to other points in the reply as I stated, to save time and space. I read most of the posts, and some I skimmed through if too long. I saw you arguing against the Preterist POV. So, I knew that FHG.


Firstly, why do you expect to see the Rapture in a book about the Jews plight, which will be the Kingdom Age 1000 year reign with Jesus !! Israel only repents as a nation during the 70th week, we see 5 million Jews repent, not 7000 and not 144,000 both were CODES if one knows how to understand God speak. Are there just 10 "Virgin Brides"? Of course not, God used numbers like 10 (Completion) 7 (Divine Completion) 12 (Fulness) and He gives us answers the world seeing can not see and hearing can not hear. So, did God lie? No, 7000, 144,000 and 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 or 5 million since there are 15 million Jews alive today, all mean the same thing. In Zechariah 13:-8-9 we see 1/3 of the end time Jews repent (5 Million) then in the next verse we see the DOTL arrives (Zech. 14:1).

7 (Divine Completion) x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 7000 or ALL Israel who repents.

12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents.

The 1/3 we know = at least 5 million Jews who repents. All three are therefore true. Knowing how to dig out God's truths is why we can see the Rapture. The Pharisees who were learned men, could not see Jesus for who he was, but why? Its in the scriptures but they missed it, why? They were looking for a Conquering King, they had too much tunnel vision to see the Suffering Servant also had to come. Likewise, those who cant see the Rapture simple can't see the obvious written in the scriptures via Paul and via TIMING TELLS. The Old Testament is about Israel, Jesus was only sent to Israel, so only Paul's ministry was unto the Gentiles per se to start with. He mentions the Rapture a few times, in 2 Thess. 2 he clearly says the Departure (of the Church) must happen before the DOTL arrives, not Apostacy. Nowhere in the passage is Faith spoken of, but a Gathering unto Jesus is spoken about in the very first verse. The first 7 English versions had departure, not a falling away. Paul said let me tell you a mystery/secret, the word Musterion is used here, it means a Secret because God has shut his mouth, literally!

We have the timing tells also, we see the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened in Rev. 4 and 5. We see the Church marrying the Lamb in Rev. 19 then returning with Jesus whilst the Beast and his armies are still on the earth. We also have demonstrations in the old testament that point us unto the pre trib rapture and Jesus' own words about the Jewish wedding pattern that point unto the pre trib rapture also, and Jesus spoke of it (him returning for his bride etc.), just not openly. Isaiah 53 was sitting right there for all the Pharisees and Israelites to see, but they MISSED IT !!

The 7 Feasts were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals). They tell the whole history of the world and Israel, including the Gentile Church Age did you know this? So, Israel kept these Feasts which were pointing unto their history to come, even the Raptures TIMING oddly enough, and then Israel's repentance, and 1000 year reign with Jesus.

The Spring Feasts Jesus has already fulfilled

1.) Passover (Jesus fulfilled this via his death and blood)

2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin)

3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave)

CONTINUED........

There are no Bible codes as God does not speak in codes, but only a mystery to those who have Spiritual eyes and ears to hear what the Spirit of God is teaching in His written word.

There is nothing mentioned in Zechariah 13:8-9 about 5 million or anywhere about 7000 Jews. I don't expect to see any Rapture mention in scripture as it's a false teaching. Christ only returns once on the last day at the end of the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition, John 17:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Matthew 24:29-31.

Zechariah 13:8-9 says nothing about 5 million Jews. This is prophecy given about the remnant of Israel that have been scattered through out the nations as the 144,000 from each tribe of Israel that will return to Israel in the end of days. In order to understand Zechariah 13:8-9 you have to cross reference it with Romans 11:1-10 about the remnant of Israel before the before the Gentiles were grafted in. Also referenced in Rev 7:1-8 about the 144,000 from each tribe of Isreal that will return back to Jerusalem in the end of days before the return of Christ.

Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. Therefore, our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

Within Gods final chastisement on man He continues to call them to repentance and one has to take into consideration during the time of the seven trumpets sounding what God pours out that destroys man will be a third part of every nation simultaneously being destroyed unless they repent and turn back to God. This also includes those who call themselves a Christian, but by name only as they have not Gods Holy Spirit dwelling in them and will also be destroyed, Matthew 7:21.

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that by faith keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

Rev 4 and 5 speak nothing about a pretrib rapture of the church, but that John was only caught up in the Spirit that day on the isle of Patmos and given these visions by that of an angel sent by Jesus to show him what must come first before His second coming, Rev 1:1-3; 9-10.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the first Lunisolar calendar that was set up by God given to Moses in Exodus 12:1-28 beginning with the month of Nisan

 

[for_his_glory]

CONTINUED......

Summer Harvest that Jesus is fulfilling now as we speak

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Summer Harvest/Church Age ( Jesus is our High Priest as we speak, he is the head we are the body. We are currently Harvesting Souls for Jesus Bride to be, the Father is married unto Israel, thus in Rev. 14 they have he Fathers name on their foreheads. Different entities, who both make heaven in the exact same way, by Faith Alone. This Feast was all alone on the Calendar, as is the Church Age !! But the TIMING TELL here is what ends the Feast of Weeks/Harvest is the exact same thing that ends the Church Age, if we study hard, pray and listen we can then dig out all the facts.

Ever hear Jesus say no one knows the Day nor Hour of his return except the Father? You do understand this mandates a Pre Trib Rapture right? Everyone knows Jesus will return on the Beasts 1260th day of rule to take over at the Second Coming. The Beast has exactly 1260 days to rule over Israel, so we will know that day. What Jesus meant probably never occurred to most people tbh. This has to be dug out via much study. The Harvest always ended when the New Year came in !! Thus the New Moon always brought in the new year. Israel was on a Lunar Calendar, or God Time so to speak, and thus they could never know the EXACT Day nor Hour in which their New Year would start via a New Moon, it could happen over a two day period of time, thus they never new the EXACT day nor hour of the new year. So, what ends the Harvest (THINK Church Age) again? The New Year, but how does this tie in with the Rapture one might ask? I will show you. Ever hear of the LAST TRUMP many think this is a Revelation Judgment Trump !! It is not. It has to do with the Harvest Ending every year and the 7 Feasts, Oh boy !! Knowledge is power.

Well, since Israel could not know the exact day nor hour they sent up two witnesses into the mountains to spy out exactly when the new moon came in, as soon as they saw the new moon they sent word back and the Israeli leaders started the Trumps (Shofar) to blowing, they blew in 9 sets of 11, or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP it sounded Longer & Louder than the other 99 and that officially ended the Harvest and ushered in the New Year via the Feasts of Trumps, this also let everyone know that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacles were both nigh at hand. Now THINK, the Last Trump is being used by Paul, a Jew, a former Pharisee, to show that Jesus will END THE HARVEST (Church Age) in the same manner, but BEFORE Israel ATONES and then TABERNACLES with Jesus. Israel atones during the 70th week, just before the DOTL as both Zechariah 13:8-9 an d 14:1 shows and Malachi 4:5 shows. So, the Last Trump is Jesus blowing the Trump, which is really just him calling us home, John says this in Rev. 4:1 Jesus' voice sounded as a Trump, in other words it quivered in a way only those with the holy spirit could hear it. Amen. (See Rev. 4:1, that is the Rapture of the Church). This has to be detailed in order to tie it all together. So, Jesus is fulfilling the Summer Harvest, and that will end with the Last Trump !! )

Fall Feasts yet to be Fulfilled.

5.) Feast of Trumps (Jesus fulfills this by Rapturing his Church as seen in Rev. 4:1 and elsewhere, like 2 Thess. 2:1-3, in 1 Cor. 15, and in 1 Thess. 4.)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who needs to ATONE according to the Daniel 9:24-27 Prophesy before that Prophesies 70 weeks of Judgment can end? Israel, of course. So, God foretold the Spring Feasts via Jesus, who fulfilled them all, he is now fulfilling the Great Harvest via his Church, who will soon be his bride, at the Rapture Jesus/God then turns back to Israel to fulfill the other three Fall Feasts (Holy Convocations/Dress Rehearsals). He does so by blowing the Trump to end the Summer Harvest/Church Age, which puts Israel back on the clock or on God Time so to speak, its a New Year, a page is turned, a new beginning. Now Israel MUST ATONE before the 70th week can end and BEFORE the Wrath of God (DOTL) can fall at the 1260 middle of the week event, which is also when the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth conquering as the Beast. We can see this in Zech. 13:8-9, 2/3 refuse to repent and will die while 1/3 of the Jews repent (ATONE) and they call God their God and He calls them his children again, then in the very next verse, Zech. 14:1 we see the DOTL arrives, so Israel repents then Flees Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area (Rev. 7) just before God's Wrath falls (Rev. 8). Do not mistake the Rev. 6 Seals for God's Wrath, all of the Seals simply open the Scroll of Judgments, that is why Seal #7 is over on Rev. 8. The Seals are Jesus Prophesying what is about to befall mankind. Seals 1-5 is the Anti--Christs 42 month rule as a Beast over Israel, he 1. Conquers for 42 months 2.) Brings War for 42 months 3.) Which bring Famine and finally 4.) His 42 month rule of course brings Sickness, Death and the Grave. 5.) He will also Martyr the Gentile Saints who come to Christ during his 42 month rule, the Jewish Saints are protected. Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING or prophesying about God's soon to come Wrath. This is why Joel 2:31 and Seal #6 BOTH MATCH Trump #4. they are FORETELLING of the Fourth Trump, the Sun and Moon going dark because of an Asteroid Impact. So, as the Scriptures tell us, Israel ATONES and thus Jesus has now fulfilled six of the Feasts. Only one is Feast is left to fulfill after Israel Repents/Atones.

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (To TABERNACLE simply means to DWELL with God, and Jesus, whom is God, will live in Jerusalem heading up the Kingdom Age for 1000 years, and thus Jesus DWELLS with Israel or Israel TABERNACLES with God for 1000 years.

So, understanding the 7 Feasts and THE TIMING TELLS in the bible allows us to understand these deeper secrets in the bible. We can also look at the Jewish Marriage Pattern to understand the Pre Trib Rapture. My calling has been Prophesy for over 37 years. A lot of people not really called unto Prophesy love dabbling in it, but we must understand our unique callings. I love preaching Salvation, of course, its the greatest miracle of all, but God called me specifically unto Prophecy after salvation of souls preaching, which is always first for everyone of us.

I will answer the rest later, this is to long tbh, but these things have to be explained in depth, people seemingly can't see them, or they have tunnel vision, as I have had on things in the past, my A-1 ability now is to understand when I am wrong on something, I got this gift via prayer one night whilst asking God why the Church was so confused on end time understandings, having 100s of understandings on who Babylon is, who the 144,000 are, what the Beast is etc. etc. when in reality there is only one true answer, so I wanted to know why in these end times, when God promised Daniel he would reveal all unto His Saints, we the Church have so much disagreement amongst us and the Lord was like "Ron, you guys already know it all". I knew instantly that meant we needed to simply ASK God, and quit relying on old men's traditions, which was a fault the Pharisees had according to Jesus !! So, now I put off all former understandings about 7 years ago and I simply ask God to show me His true understandings, AND I wrestle God for the answer, in other words I refuse to quit until I get the Holy Spirits answer on anything !! And I always get the answer, because God wants to reveal all of these things in these end times unto us.

I will maybe put forth the Jewish Wedding Pattern at another time.

God Bless.

Not to be rude or anything, but as I have stated there is nowhere in scripture that says anything about us being taken out of here before Christ returns. Plus, none of this has anything to do with Rev 17, but if you would like to start a new thread about the rapture in the End Time forum just tag me in.