Revelation was written by John

[dirtfarmer]

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matthew 7:24-27


It is amazing to believe that one could actually teach that we are to ignore what Jesus taught, because "Church Doctrine" should only come from Paul.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18


Words of Christ in red.




JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Are you saying that Christ built his Church on Peter?

 

[Free]

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

In 1 Peter 1 we are told to whom the epistle was written: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." Why would Peter call Gentiles; strangers scattered abroad. We find written in Leviticus 25:23: "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me."
1 Chronicles 29:13 "For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were our fathers: our days on the earth are a shadow, and there is none abiding."
Hebrews 11:13 " These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

Firstly, using the same language in no way whatsoever means that they are talking about or to the same people group.

Lev. 17:8, 8 "And you shall say to them, Any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice (ESV)

Lev. 17:10, 10 "If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. (ESV)

Lev. 17:13, 13 "Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. (ESV)

Etc.

You can see that the mention of "strangers" only and not "strangers and sojourners" is much more accurate to what Peter says. I could use that to argue, as you have, that therefore Peter clearly is not writing to Jews. That is the problem with proof-texting.

Secondly, we look at what else Peter says:

1 Pet. 1:18, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, (ESV)

1 Pet. 4:3-4, 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; (ESV)

Both of the above passages suggest that the readers have a pagan background, not a Jewish one, noting that Peter's use of "Gentiles" is referring to unbelievers in general.

Thirdly, and most importantly, you avoided the stronger point I made, which is that Peter clearly says in 2 Pet. 3:15-17 that Paul also wrote to this same group of people, these same churches. And not only that, Peter equates Paul's writings with those of the OT. When that is put together with what Paul says in 2 Tim. 3:16-17, it means that those to whom Peter is writing are to use Paul's writings for sources of doctrine and teaching, which is what they were doing.

The third point alone does your position in.

On the day of Pentecost did Peter preach the gospel of the grace of God or was it the gospel of the kingdom? Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you and to your children, even to them that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." To whom was the promise and what was that promise?
Joshua 24:13-14 " And I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyardsand the oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."
They were looking for the earthly kingdom. We know this from Acts 1:6 " When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel

As to "kingdom of priest", is there a difference between "bride" and "priest"? The Church is the bride of Christ and will rule and reign with him. Can you give any scripture that states that "priest" are the bride of Christ?
In 1 Peter 2:5-6, "does head of the corner" have reference to the Church? In verse 8 it is stated "a rock of offence, a stone of stumbling"; where do you find this is stated to the Church?

Can you quote scripture that states there is neither Jew or Gentile in the kingdom of God? There are scriptures that state that in the Church, which is the bride of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but all are children of God and heirs and joint-heirs with Christ.

Scripture about the worthy one to open the scroll is Revelation 5:9-10

Yes, I just realized that reference was wrong. Regardless, you didn't even address it as it too refutes your position:

9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (ESV)

It cannot be stated more plainly that people from "every tribe and language and people and nation" are made to be priests.

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

I understand that you know who is writing but I have always opened my post with "dirtfarmer here". It seems as there is some hostility creeping in, if so, then I will not continue.

Dirtfarmer,

There is zero hostility from me. Can't I question you about these issues without your being defensive about 'hostility creeping in'? There is not the faintest thought of hostility towards you, brother. Nothing!

I still stand by "doctrine for the Church should be from Paul's epistles". That is not saying that other scripture should not be used, it is useful, just not Church doctrine.

It is very serious to be teaching something (Pauline epistles should only be used for church doctrine) that is not taught in Scripture.

James warns us: 'Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly' (James 3:1 NIV).

Oz

 

[dirtfarmer]

Firstly, using the same language in no way whatsoever means that they are talking about or to the same people group.

Lev. 17:8, 8 "And you shall say to them, Any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice (ESV)

Lev. 17:10, 10 "If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. (ESV)

Lev. 17:13, 13 "Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. (ESV)

Etc.

You can see that the mention of "strangers" only and not "strangers and sojourners" is much more accurate to what Peter says. I could use that to argue, as you have, that therefore Peter clearly is not writing to Jews. That is the problem with proof-texting.

Secondly, we look at what else Peter says:

1 Pet. 1:18, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, (ESV)

1 Pet. 4:3-4, 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; (ESV)

Both of the above passages suggest that the readers have a pagan background, not a Jewish one, noting that Peter's use of "Gentiles" is referring to unbelievers in general.

Thirdly, and most importantly, you avoided the stronger point I made, which is that Peter clearly says in 2 Pet. 3:15-17 that Paul also wrote to this same group of people, these same churches. And not only that, Peter equates Paul's writings with those of the OT. When that is put together with what Paul says in 2 Tim. 3:16-17, it means that those to whom Peter is writing are to use Paul's writings for sources of doctrine and teaching, which is what they were doing.

The third point alone does your position in.


Yes, I just realized that reference was wrong. Regardless, you didn't even address it as it too refutes your position:

9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (ESV)

It cannot be stated more plainly that people from "every tribe and language and people and nation" are made to be priests.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Are you saying that Christ built his Church on Peter?

I'm saying Christ is the one building His Church. Not Paul.

The bedrock, solid, unshakable foundation He is building His Church on is: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Firstly, using the same language in no way whatsoever means that they are talking about or to the same people group.

Lev. 17:8, 8 "And you shall say to them, Any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice (ESV)

Lev. 17:10, 10 "If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. (ESV)

Lev. 17:13, 13 "Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. (ESV)

Etc.

You can see that the mention of "strangers" only and not "strangers and sojourners" is much more accurate to what Peter says. I could use that to argue, as you have, that therefore Peter clearly is not writing to Jews. That is the problem with proof-texting.

Secondly, we look at what else Peter says:

1 Pet. 1:18, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, (ESV)

1 Pet. 4:3-4, 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; (ESV)

Both of the above passages suggest that the readers have a pagan background, not a Jewish one, noting that Peter's use of "Gentiles" is referring to unbelievers in general.

Thirdly, and most importantly, you avoided the stronger point I made, which is that Peter clearly says in 2 Pet. 3:15-17 that Paul also wrote to this same group of people, these same churches. And not only that, Peter equates Paul's writings with those of the OT. When that is put together with what Paul says in 2 Tim. 3:16-17, it means that those to whom Peter is writing are to use Paul's writings for sources of doctrine and teaching, which is what they were doing.

The third point alone does your position in.


Yes, I just realized that reference was wrong. Regardless, you didn't even address it as it too refutes your position:

9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (ESV)

It cannot be stated more plainly that people from "every tribe and language and people and nation" are made to be priests.

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Stranger in Leviticus 17:8, 10, &13, "haggar", Strong's # 1616 , is from the Hebrew word "ger" ; proselyte

If you use only strangers and forget sojourners, can you give scripture reference where believers are called strangers? In Ephesians 2:18-19 it is stated; " For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God."

I have never said that any one was saved outside of faith. In 1 Peter 1:18 what was "the futile ways inherited from your forefathers"? Was it not that they were depending on their earthly birthright for salvation?
Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." It was common in that day to teach that the merits of being of the linage of Abraham helped in wars, made their prayers acceptable, expiated sins, appeased God's wrath and assured them a share in God's kingdom.

In 1 Peter 4:4 who is "they think it strange that ye run not with them? Is it "Gentiles" of v3. If a person is not "Gentile" then doesn't he have to be Jewish?

If Paul wrote to the same group of people, where are those epistles? It is my belief that the writings of Paul apply to the Church, of which is both Jewish believers and Gentile believers, with no distinction between. We are all part of the body of Christ.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm saying Christ is the one building His Church. Not Paul.

The bedrock, solid, unshakable foundation He is building His Church on is: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

I agree with this post.

 

[smaller]

If Paul wrote to the same group of people, where are those epistles? It is my belief that the writings of Paul apply to the Church, of which is both Jewish believers and Gentile believers, with no distinction between. We are all part of the body of Christ.

Don't know why you would see Peter any differently, when Peter himself says otherwise:

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Don't know why you would see Peter any differently, when Peter himself says otherwise:

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

As far as I know the only Gentile that Peter preached to was Cornelius and his household. In Acts 10:2 it is stated that he was "a devout man and one that feared God".
Have you ever studied about "God Fearers". Cornelius was not a "heathen", we know this because he was a devout man.

 

[Sinthesis]

If you use only strangers and forget sojourners, can you give scripture reference where believers are called strangers?

Luk 17:15 - And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 - And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 - And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18 - There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 - And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.​

 

[dirtfarmer]

Luk 17:15 - And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 - And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 - And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18 - There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 - And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.​

hello Sinthesis, dirtfarmer here

You are correct that verse18 has the word in English "stranger" but the actual meaning of the greek word, "allogenos" should be foreigner. I should have been more specific and referenced the greek word "xenoi" for stranger.
thanks

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

As far as I know the only Gentile that Peter preached to was Cornelius and his household.

The fact that Peter, his words, were deployed to "those particular gentiles" means those same words apply to "all gentiles" to this day.

When anyone starts to isolate scripture, defining them as only applicable to the people they were directly spoken to, they have used that "filter" to KILL scripture and make it of no effect.

That is not how scripture works. Anyone employing that kind of methodology is simply off base with their theological understandings.

This Word of God, spoken and delivered to Peter, written for all of us to see, remains just as effective today as the day it was "revealed."

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

We, today, can take this same "showing" by God to Peter as a hard line fact, and apply it backwards in time to all who lived prior, forward to all who will ever live on the earth, and also to any person alive today.

It is SURE WORD of God. Not of Peter.

Gods Words are NOT limited to only those who were spoken to. That was never the case. Jesus shows us this hard line fact, here for example, about Gods Law.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The same Law of God, which was written against sinners, against the lawless, against the workings of evil in man, are still in HARD LINE FORCE and EFFECT, to this day. 1 Tim. 1:9, 2 Tim. 3:16

Any claimant to christianity who eradicates the law, is spiritually blinded.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We can also take this statement (or any statement in the scriptures) of Peter, from Acts, as just as sure today as the day it was spoken:

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The fact that Peter, his words, were deployed to "those particular gentiles" means those same words apply to "all gentiles" to this day.

When anyone starts to isolate scripture, defining them as only applicable to the people they were directly spoken to, they have used that "filter" to KILL scripture and make it of no effect.

That is not how scripture works. Anyone employing that kind of methodology is simply off base with their theological understandings.

This Word of God, spoken and delivered to Peter, written for all of us to see, remains just as effective today as the day it was "revealed."

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

We, today, can take this same "showing" by God to Peter as a hard line fact, and apply it backwards in time to all who lived prior, forward to all who will ever live on the earth, and also to any person alive today.

It is SURE WORD of God. Not of Peter.

Gods Words are NOT limited to only those who were spoken to. That was never the case. Jesus shows us this hard line fact, here for example, about Gods Law.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The same Law of God, which was written against sinners, against the lawless, against the workings of evil in man, are still in HARD LINE FORCE and EFFECT, to this day. 1 Tim. 1:9, 2 Tim. 3:16

Any claimant to christianity who eradicates the law, is spiritually blinded.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We can also take this statement (or any statement in the scriptures) of Peter, from Acts, as just as sure today as the day it was spoken:

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I am not isolating scripture, but rightly dividing the word of truth.

Was Jesus isolating when he commanded the twelve to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and not to any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I am not isolating scripture, but rightly dividing the word of truth.

Was Jesus isolating when he commanded the twelve to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and not to any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

There are many forms of sectarian christianity that have devised various means of sights to eliminate Gods Words from applicability, or change them as to not apply, or that do the same with the words of the Apostles or the prophets, etc.

I don't believe any of those kinds of claims can hold legitimate scriptural water. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, duly noted prior.

I understand why people do this. Rubbing out the Word of God is a common working. Mark 4:15.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There are many forms of sectarian christianity that have devised various means of sights to eliminate Gods Words from applicability, or change them as to not apply, or that do the same with the words of the Apostles or the prophets, etc.

I don't believe any of those kinds of claims can hold legitimate scriptural water. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, duly noted prior.

I understand why people do this. Rubbing out the Word of God is a common working. Mark 4:15.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

OK, I will pray for you as I hope you will for me that we clearly understand and compare scripture with scripture and not man's understanding

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

OK, I will pray for you as I hope you will for me that we clearly understand and compare scripture with scripture and not man's understanding

Don't feel bad about differences in sight. No 2 people see exactly alike. It's not possible, because of the states of our current subjective plantings. The Spirit however does not change, nor do Gods Words.

Psalm 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

For at least 10 years of my believing in Christ life, I bought the very false story that Gods Laws did not apply to "believers." And "tested" this premise rigorously amongst peers, elders in the faith.

Guess what? It turned out I was not only wrong, but VERY wrong.

My mind was changed by The Word of God, proving otherwise.

Today, and for quite some time now, I know that the Law of God is quite RIGHTFULLY against sin dwelling in man, and evil present with us all. Today, I accept the CONDEMNATION of these workings in my own flesh, such knowledge brought to me, courtesy of the LAWS EXPOSUREs of these workings in my own flesh. Romans 8:3, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:23.

It was a hard thing for me, personally, to find HIS LIFE in HIS RIGHTFUL condemnation. And this, after being "born again." My flesh, by it's natural state, REJECTED this condemnation. Gal. 5:17. It took time to KILL it, which is a "daily practice" of understanding that Paul himself had to employ: 1 Cor. 15:31, which Paul drew, via revelation, from this Old Testament fact, here:

Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

These are not easy things to understand, until we understand the "exposure" of our innards, of evil present within our conscience, the sin dwelling in our flesh. These are NOT the "ally" of God, but work, OPPOSING the Spirit. We carry, in our own flesh, opposition to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

And this opposition will deny it exists, and will justify ITSELF, falsely, before God.

Understanding this opposition, brought me to the cross, seeing that each of us, this cross must bear, when we follow Him. There is no avoiding it.

Which has driven me ever further into the Mercy and Grace of God in Christ, knowing well, my needs of Him.

I know, before I even write of these things, that the flesh of all will deny deny deny, til it draws it's last dying breath.

 

[Sinthesis]

If you use only strangers and forget sojourners, can you give scripture reference where believers are called strangers?

Luk 17:18 - There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

You are correct that verse18 has the word in English "stranger" but the actual meaning of the greek word, "allogenos" should be foreigner. I should have been more specific and referenced the greek word "xenoi" for stranger.

The Greek word "xenoi" is also translated as the English "host". Clearly Gaius is a believer.

Rom 16:21 ¶ Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.
Rom 16:22 - I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.
Rom 16:23 - Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
Rom 16:24 - The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.​

The Greek word "xenoi" also forms the basis of "philoxenia" or hospital-to-strangers, who in this case are angels we can assume are believers.

Heb 13:2 - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.​

 

[Free]

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Stranger in Leviticus 17:8, 10, &13, "haggar", Strong's # 1616 , is from the Hebrew word "ger" ; proselyte

If you use only strangers and forget sojourners, can you give scripture reference where believers are called strangers? In Ephesians 2:18-19 it is stated; " For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God."

This really has no bearing on the matter. My only point is that you are proof-texting to try and support your position. Whether Peter wrote primarily to Gentiles or Jews is of absolutely no consequence.

I have never said that any one was saved outside of faith.

I never said that you did.

In 1 Peter 1:18 what was "the futile ways inherited from your forefathers"? Was it not that they were depending on their earthly birthright for salvation?
Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." It was common in that day to teach that the merits of being of the linage of Abraham helped in wars, made their prayers acceptable, expiated sins, appeased God's wrath and assured them a share in God's kingdom.

So the ways of the Jewish forefathers were futile, the ways God gave them?

1 Pet 2:10, 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (ESV)

Were the Jews once not God's people? If so, why is it "now" that they would become God's people?

In 1 Peter 4:4 who is "they think it strange that ye run not with them? Is it "Gentiles" of v3. If a person is not "Gentile" then doesn't he have to be Jewish?

"Gentile" is also a general term for "unbeliever," as I previously stated. You claim that Paul wrote only to the Gentile believers, so here are Paul's words:

Eph 4:17, 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. (ESV)

According to your argument, Paul should here be writing to Jewish believers. But Paul is using "Gentiles" as a general term for "unbelievers".

If Paul wrote to the same group of people, where are those epistles?

That we may not have those letters is irrelevant. Paul even states that he has written other letters, letters that we do not have, but that does not mean he didn't write them. Are you seriously going to ignore the very clear statement of Peter that Paul wrote to these same people? Who is right, you or Peter?

2 Pet 3:15, 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2 Pet 3:16a, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. (ESV)

It should also be noted that Peter is saying that Paul speaks of these same matters in other letters. In other words, the same doctrine is being taught to all. Clearly then, all books of the NT are meant for all believers--regardless of whether they are Jewish or not--"for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

It is my belief that the writings of Paul apply to the Church, of which is both Jewish believers and Gentile believers, with no distinction between. We are all part of the body of Christ.

And yet you have no basis for that belief--for excluding the rest of the NT writings--biblical or otherwise.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Don't feel bad about differences in sight. No 2 people see exactly alike. It's not possible, because of the states of our current subjective plantings. The Spirit however does not change, nor do Gods Words.

Psalm 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

For at least 10 years of my believing in Christ life, I bought the very false story that Gods Laws did not apply to "believers." And "tested" this premise rigorously amongst peers, elders in the faith.

Guess what? It turned out I was not only wrong, but VERY wrong.

My mind was changed by The Word of God, proving otherwise.

Today, and for quite some time now, I know that the Law of God is quite RIGHTFULLY against sin dwelling in man, and evil present with us all. Today, I accept the CONDEMNATION of these workings in my own flesh, such knowledge brought to me, courtesy of the LAWS EXPOSUREs of these workings in my own flesh. Romans 8:3, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:23.

It was a hard thing for me, personally, to find HIS LIFE in HIS RIGHTFUL condemnation. And this, after being "born again." My flesh, by it's natural state, REJECTED this condemnation. Gal. 5:17. It took time to KILL it, which is a "daily practice" of understanding that Paul himself had to employ: 1 Cor. 15:31, which Paul drew, via revelation, from this Old Testament fact, here:

Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

These are not easy things to understand, until we understand the "exposure" of our innards, of evil present within our conscience, the sin dwelling in our flesh. These are NOT the "ally" of God, but work, OPPOSING the Spirit. We carry, in our own flesh, opposition to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

And this opposition will deny it exists, and will justify ITSELF, falsely, before God.

Understanding this opposition, brought me to the cross, seeing that each of us, this cross must bear, when we follow Him. There is no avoiding it.

Which has driven me ever further into the Mercy and Grace of God in Christ, knowing well, my needs of Him.

I know, before I even write of these things, that the flesh of all will deny deny deny, til it draws it's last dying breath.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

In your statement "Today, I accept the condemnation of these workings of in my own flesh." How do you reconcile that statement with Romans 8:1 " There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Do you understand the "redemption of our body" in verse 23?
We have been saved from the penalty of sin
We have been saved from the power of sin
We will be saved from the presence of sin we when are with Jesus: the redemption of our body.

 

[dirtfarmer]

This really has no bearing on the matter. My only point is that you are proof-texting to try and support your position. Whether Peter wrote primarily to Gentiles or Jews is of absolutely no consequence.


I never said that you did.


So the ways of the Jewish forefathers were futile, the ways God gave them?

1 Pet 2:10, 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (ESV)

Were the Jews once not God's people? If so, why is it "now" that they would become God's people?


"Gentile" is also a general term for "unbeliever," as I previously stated. You claim that Paul wrote only to the Gentile believers, so here are Paul's words:

Eph 4:17, 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. (ESV)

According to your argument, Paul should here be writing to Jewish believers. But Paul is using "Gentiles" as a general term for "unbelievers".


That we may not have those letters is irrelevant. Paul even states that he has written other letters, letters that we do not have, but that does not mean he didn't write them. Are you seriously going to ignore the very clear statement of Peter that Paul wrote to these same people? Who is right, you or Peter?

2 Pet 3:15, 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2 Pet 3:16a, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. (ESV)

It should also be noted that Peter is saying that Paul speaks of these same matters in other letters. In other words, the same doctrine is being taught to all. Clearly then, all books of the NT are meant for all believers--regardless of whether they are Jewish or not--"for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."


And yet you have no basis for that belief--for excluding the rest of the NT writings--biblical or otherwise.

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Why would it be of no consequence who Peter wrote to. Is the consequences of taking what was written about Moses and apply that to the Church today? How do you reconcile that Jesus is our Sabbath and the Sabbath of Moses' time? The law was of works but salvation today is by grace through faith.

I never said the ways of the forefathers was futile, but I have read that the Law was fulfilled by Jesus, even his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. The reason that Jesus was baptized was so he could become our high priest that entered into the holy of holies in heaven.
Leviticus 16:4 " He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and he shall be girded with a linen girdle, with the linen mitre shall be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
Exodus 28:30 " And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually".

1 Peter 2:10 is speaking about the time that God took a Hebrew( Abram) as his chosen people. Deuteronomy 7:7 " The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you more in number than any other people; for ye were the fewest of all people." All Jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews. Abraham was a Hebrew but he was not a "Jew". Only those of the tribe of Judah are Jews. Later the tribe of Benjamin was added.

Did Paul preach "baptism for the remission of sin" as did Peter, or did he preach that Christ paid our debt of sin, the death burial and resurrection of Christ?