romans 9 study

[Drew]

Romans 1:16 does not say that the gospel results in salvation, but it says the gospel is the power unto salvation.

This is a false distinction. To say that the gospel is the power unto salvation is to say that the gospel results in salvation. In english, when we say that "X is the power unto Y", we are necessarily saying that X provides the energy that leads to, or results in, or generates Y.

 

[Drew]

The gospel does not result in our salvation, it is the means of our salvation.

This is a false distinction. To say that something (the gospel) is the means of something else, our salvation, you have to be saying that the gospel is a thing that produces or generates our salvation. And that is consistent with what Paul is saying - that the gospel of Jesus' Messianic kingship produces our salvation. So the gospel is not "salvation", it is the thing that generates or produces salvation.

That's what "means" do - the "means of X" is really a somewhat inaccurate way of saying "the means by which we get X". Here is a list of proper uses of the word "means". In case, the thing X that is the means "of" Y is actually a thing that generates or results in Y:

"Studying hard is the means of getting into Yale";

"A car is the means by which I get to work:"

"Hard work is the means of success"

How can it possibly be true that "salvation" - what you see the gospel as being - is the "means" of salvation - this is the difficult question you need to answer if you are going to stick with your claim that "the gospel is the means of our salvation" and also have us believe that by "gospel", Paul is referring to news about salvation itself.

Here is a dictionary definition of "means":

"something useful or helpful to a desired end"

Again, this defintion suggests that when someone (like you) says "the gospel is the means of our salvation", you are saying "the gospel is something useful or helpful to the desired end - our salvation". On such a reading "the gospel" cannot be news about the very end that it leads to.

 

[mondar]

Romans 1:16 does not say that the gospel results in salvation, but it says the gospel is the power unto salvation.

This is a false distinction. To say that the gospel is the power unto salvation is to say that the gospel results in salvation. In english, when we say that "X is the power unto Y", we are necessarily saying that X provides the energy that leads to, or results in, or generates Y.

In the context of what you were saying it is very important. You were making up some false gospel and saying that salvation is a by product (result) of the gospel, and that the true pauline gospel is merely the placing of Christ upon his messanic throne. I am saying that the good news (gospel) of Christs death is our salvation.

The gospel is the good news that Christ shed blood is the only basis of our deliverance from sin and the wrath of God.

 

[MarkT]

You're both wrong. You have to understand the action of the gospel - that the work of God begins with hearing the good news. You have to understand the power of the word of God on the hearer of the word. It's the action of the word on the soul of the hearer that saves the hearer. As we heard, so we believed what we heard. So the gospel is literally the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith. Let the message be met with faith.

Paul said, "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith". Gal. 3:2 In his letter to the Hebrews he said, the promise of entering God's rest, that is, the good news of the kingdom, did not benefit the ancient Israelites because it was not met with faith in the hearers. Hebrews 4:2

Now what is the action of the word of the kingdom on the hearer of the word? First the word separates the soul and the spirit - as Paul said, 'For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit'. Heb. 4:12 Then Christ is formed - as Paul said, 'My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!' Gal. 4:19 And we are made alive in him. For the Lord is the Spirit, 2 Co. 3:17, and we are alive in him and he is alive in us.

 

[Drew]

Romans 1:16 does not say that the gospel results in salvation, but it says the gospel is the power unto salvation.

This is a false distinction. To say that the gospel is the power unto salvation is to say that the gospel results in salvation. In english, when we say that "X is the power unto Y", we are necessarily saying that X provides the energy that leads to, or results in, or generates Y.

In the context of what you were saying it is very important. You were making up some false gospel and saying that salvation is a by product (result) of the gospel, and that the true pauline gospel is merely the placing of Christ upon his messanic throne. I am saying that the good news (gospel) of Christs death is our salvation.

The gospel is the good news that Christ shed blood is the only basis of our deliverance from sin and the wrath of God.

You are not actually engaging the content of my recent post. You have not addressed my post where I explained that your own statement:

The gospel does not result in our salvation, it is the means of our salvation.

.....expresses a false distinction. I actually made a case about how the meaning of the word "means" effectively requires us to see "salvation" as a result of the gospel. You are in the very difficult position of effectively saying that Paul says this in Romans 1:16:

"The content of the gospel - salvation by faith - is the means (your word) of our salvation"

That is what you are saying if one inserts your understanding of what the word "gospel" means into your own sentence. This is a tautology. How can salvation by faith be the means of salvation? Faith could be a means of salvation - that would work structurally, but you cannot have "salvation by faith being the means of salvation.

"Salvation by faith" cannot be the means of salvation anymore than "passing a test by test by studying" can be the means of "passing a test". Studying (itself) can be the means of passing, but one cannot sensibly have the very act of passing of the test (whether by studying or not) be the means for passing the test.

 

[mondar]

Faith could be a means of salvation - that would work structurally, but you cannot have "salvation by faith being the means of salvation.

No, faith is not a means of salvation, Christs death is the gospel, and Christs death is the means and basis of salvation. Faith is the human requirement. Of course even faith comes by the drawing of God as God uses the preaching of the Gospel. God draws the elect because of Christs atoning death.

Concerning this tautology business. I never said salvation is the means of salvation.

So then, the cross work of Christ supplies both atonement and faith.

 

[Drew]

Faith could be a means of salvation - that would work structurally, but you cannot have "salvation by faith being the means of salvation.

No, faith is not a means of salvation, Christs death is the gospel, and Christs death is the means and basis of salvation.

The statement about faith being a means of salvation was a bad example on my part in service of a point that is otherwise valid. I wil withdraw that example.

But the point still remains. You have stated:

The gospel does not result in our salvation, it is the means of our salvation.

I believe that you also believe that the term "gospel" means "the good news that one can saved by faith in Christ". So if we insert what you believe the gospel to be into this other statement of yours, we get the following tautologous statement:

"Salvation by faith in Christ (the content of the gospel).....is the means of our salvation"

This does not make structural sense. One cannot, if one correctly understands the word "means", have the very thing achieved through the means - salvation - being also part of the means itself. This would be like saying "Passing a test by studying is the means of passing a test". The correct way of writing what is clearly intended in the preceding sentence is "Studying is the means of passing a test".

The problem lies in having the "means" contain the very result that the "means" produces. I think the example "Passing a test by studying is the means of passing a test" clearly shows the problem. It is the studying that is clearly the "means" of passing of the test.

I would think your only recourse is to say that Paul has slipped in his grammar and intended to say something like "The gospel (salvation by faith in Christ) is good news for all". It is indeed possible that Paul was taking liberties in grammar and should have said something like this:

"Sending Jesus to the Cross is the means for our salvation (or is power unto salvation)".

But, it seems that Paul also made the same grammar error in 1 Corinthians 15 where, again, we have a structure that cannot support the "gospel" being "salvation by faith" because it lead to the tautology:

2By this gospel - that is, by salvation by faith - you are saved,...

I trust the problem with this is clear. But perhaps Paul is making the same grammar mistake in both places. That is possible, but I have my doubts.

In any event, I think that Romans 1:2-5 settles the matter:

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace....

Assuming that we understand the "receiving of grace" as entailing salvation, we see that Paul is saying that we get salvation through Jesus. And then we properly understand verse 2-4 as asserting that the content of the gospel is about who Jesus is - the Davidic Messiah whose resurrection constitutes Him as Lord of the world - and that grace is something we get through this Jesus. So the "gospel" is not "grace or salvation by faith" - it is what Paul says it is here (statements about Jesus) and "through" this very same Jesus, we attain grace.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God is Sovereign in who He shows Mercy ! -



Rom 9:


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it [Salvation] is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Salvation or being saved is by the Mercy of God Titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 2:

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Gods saving, and quickening Mercy is shown according to Gods Sovereignty, not because one willeth.

That word willeth is the greek word:

thelō and means:

to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Mercy Paul says is not shown an individual because they desire it, or have in mind, being resolved, none of those things in a Mans Mind is the cause of God showing them saving Mercy.

Its not of Him [ Individual] that runneth ! The word runneth is the greek word:

trechō: and means:

by a metaphor taken from runners in a race, to exert one's self, strive hard

c) to spend one's strength in performing or attaining something

Mercy is not shown to any because they exert themselves for it, if they strive for it as in :


lk 13:24

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Yes, Gods mercy unto Eternal Life [ Jude 1:21] is not because we strive to enter in into it.

But this Saving Mercy is shown to whomever God wants to receive it, according to His own will and Purpose, and not the will of men.

This is the biblical teaching on Gods Saving Mercy, see How Paul Preached it ?

 

[deceptionlurks]

You can't know Romans 9, until you know who it was written to and when.

Did you know that the books in your New Testament are out of order? Because of this people don't understand what it happening as a whole in the NT.

Watch this video on why people can't understand the Bible

http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=2EC61C9C63F833B3

 

[Drew]

God is Sovereign in who He shows Mercy ! -



Rom 9:


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it [Salvation] is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

B57, you have inserted the word "salvation in verse 16.

The word "salvation" is not present in the original greek and there are a range of reasons to believe that Paul, at this point in his argument, is not addressing the matter of personal salvation.

 

[mlqurgw]

B57, you have inserted the word "salvation in verse 16.

The word "salvation" is not present in the original greek and there are a range of reasons to believe that Paul, at this point in his argument, is not addressing the matter of personal salvation.

So what does the "it" refer to if not salvation?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So what does the "it" refer to if not salvation?

Salvation !

 

[savedbygrace57]

It should be clear that the word it as in rom 9:

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy

it regards salvation. I know it is denied by those who fail to receive the Truth of God's Sovereignty in Salvation and Reprobation [Rejection]. They want to make things as it pertains to nations, and not the salvation of individuals. This ideal of this being a matter of nations and not individuals is disproved by the text. The Apostle Paul is not writing about nations but salvation, the whole theme of the letter is grounded in salvation rom 1:15-16, but he is writing to those of the same nation, to ethnic jews. The words:

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

lifted out of the context of Ex 33:19, where God is making a distinction between those of the same nation, so persons and not nations are differentiated by the mercy of God, and so it is applied in the same sense in vs 16. The meaning is, it is not of any individual, or will of a person, or run [effort] of a person, but of God that showeth mercy to attain salvation. Titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eternal Salvation is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth Mercy.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Sovereign Reprobation !

The Natural Man will not and cannot receive the Things of God, the Truths of God's Gospel, proclaiming Gods Eternal Predestination and Election and Decree of reprobation, all preached in the gospel of the book of romans, particular the 9 th Chapter. Men hate and oppose this Gospel of Gods Sovereignty.

This Gospel puts men in his appropriate position before Almighty God ! This is the reason why the Natural man opposes it and objects rom 9:

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Reprobation is the Eternal Purpose of God, His good pleasure, whereby He determined that some of mankind, His creatures, would be punished in hell forever because of their sins, and this would be for the special purpose of Christ and His undeserving Grace.

Hence, He created them as Vessels of Wrath and they because of that are fitting themselves for destruction rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That they are fitting themselves for destruction by the decree of God, makes them accountable for their sins.

 

[Drew]

So what does the "it" refer to if not salvation?

The "it" does not refer any one thing in particular. Paul has prefaced his "it" statement with a set of examples of God making "the determining choice". So when he writes this:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy

...he is summarizing what he has said to this point - God works in history to achieve His purposes and the will of man cannot "overcome" what God wants to do.

But let's be clear: all the examples he has listed are about how God has worked in history. So all we have warrant to conclude is that Paul is saying that God's purposes will most assuredly be achieved in the outworking of history.

Paul has not been talking about "salvation" issues at all to this point in his argument. So to see the "it" as being "salvation" is to go well beyond what Paul is actually saying.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The It is speaking about salvation.

The theme of the chapter is paul making it clear who the children of God are.

Rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Children of God comes through the Faith of Christ..gal 3:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

All who are brought to Faith in Christ are the Children of God, and not specifically Abrahams descendants by the Flesh, like most of National Israe was comprised of.

 

[Drew]

The theme of the chapter is paul making it clear who the children of God are.

Well I agree that one theme of Romans 9 is the identification of the people of God. But it is not the principal theme. In any event, identifying who the "true people of God are" does not necessarily entail belief in the hypothesis that they were pre-destined to such.

There is "pre-destination" in the sense of "God choosing" in Romans 9.

And there is "salvation" in Romans 9.

But, I suggest that the essential point Paul is making about "election" or "pre-destination" or "God's choice" is that from the foundation of time, God "chose" to harden the nation of Israel so that salvation could be made available to all the world.

But to say that God hardened Israel - just like a potter would harden a pot - does not mean that he pre-destined particular Jews to be lost.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

Well I agree that one theme of Romans 9 is the identification of the people of God. But it is not the principal theme.

Where does it say its not the principal theme ?

The theme of rom 9 is in line with the theme of the book Salvation rom 1:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:16ff- 11:36 is the Gospel of Salvation, the whole counsel of it.

 

[Drew]

drew:

Where does it say its not the principal theme ?

It is not realistic to expect that any given text will somehow be annotated to explicitly identify the "principle" theme.

But, in the case of Romans9, it is clear that the principle theme is that God has hardened the nation of Israel with salvific implications for the entire world. In fact, this same theme appears in more explicit form in chapter 11.

The theme of rom 9 is in line with the theme of the book Salvation rom 1:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:16ff- 11:36 is the Gospel of Salvation, the whole counsel of it.

The fact that one of the results of the gospel is that people are "saved" is not particularly strong evidence that the letter as a whole is primarily about "salvation". Clearly a range of different themes appear in Romans - not least the very particular question of the status of the nation of Israel. I suggest that it is Israel and God's treatment of her that is on the table in chapters 9 through 11.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In keeping with the theme of rom 9, rom 10 starts 10:

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Salvation is the subject throughout.