romans 9 study

[Who Says]

Absolutely, 100 % correct. Romans 9 to 11 is about Israel, not about a general theology whereby all human beings are either pre-destined to heaven or to hell.

This is a touchy subject for me to insert myself into because it is so emotionally fueled on both sides of the fence.

You have some good points Drew. They have some good points also that see the salvation in it. All of us can add to our understanding.

What Paul is showing is the outplay of Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Those that are the vessels of wrath fit for destruction are those that did not choose life. They would not and they will not. But as Paul said, Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and so that fact does not change what God is doing concerning those who are true Israelites by God's choosing of them.​

Paul's argument is that there is yet a remnant of that true spiritual seed among those vessels of wrath so they yet need the message of Christ preached to them just as to any other nation. The Roman church was being neglectful of that because they held a bad attitude toward the Jews, probably largely due to the Jews violent persecution of them.​

Before I say more, I have much already written on it as I went through it in the ​

"Was "all Israel" gathered & saved?" thread. Why not pop over to that thread and browse it? http://www.christianforums.net/f20/all-israel-gathered-saved-34435/

I believe I even remember having dissected Romans chapter 11 somewhere in that thread.

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/all-israel-gathered-saved-34435/index2.html#post516763

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/all-israel-gathered-saved-34435/index2.html#post516766

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/all-israel-gathered-saved-34435/index2.html#post516772

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/all-israel-gathered-saved-34435/index2.html#post516781

 

[Eventide]

Romans 9 to 11 is about Israel, not about a general theology whereby all human beings are either pre-destined to heaven or to hell.

And once again.. look at how many in Christendom ignore the mystery pertaining to the Nation of Israel and are amillennial.. led to believe that this present EVIL world is the Kingdom of God on earth.. and that there's no future restoration of the nation of Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ws:

Those that are the vessels of wrath fit for destruction are those that did not choose life.

You are way off into a different stratosphere.. God does the choosing. The choosing was certain ones in Christ before the world began..

 

[Who Says]

ws:



You are way off into a different stratosphere.. God does the choosing. The choosing was certain ones in Christ before the world began..

Let's be real and use a little common sense here. No one actually chooses to die but God undenianly presented that choice to them.

So quite naturally God is the final judge of who will get life.

Those of us that choose death do not do so saying, "Yes, I want to die."

We choose it by being vessels fit for wrath by the stubborness in our hearts that is too prideful to listen.

God does try to break a vessel of haughtiness down so he can rebuild it into something useful. But he does not force us to accept his discipline of us. He does not haggle with us. If we choose to remain hard in our hearts he will destroy us.

Read Paul's words about the vessels in a "great house" at 2 Timothy chapter 2.

 

[Eventide]

Once everyone can agree with God on the simple fact that ALL are condemned in Adam (FLESH) and justified freely in Christ, we can then stop using Romans 9 as a basis for unconditional election of men.

 

[Who Says]

Once everyone can agree with God on the simple fact that ALL are condemned in Adam (FLESH) and justified freely in Christ, we can then stop using Romans 9 as a basis for unconditional election of men.

Yes, I agree. I do not support the idea unconditional election at all. And when I state something as this:

"Those that are the vessels of wrath fit for destruction are those that did not choose life. They would not and they will not. But as Paul said, Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and so that fact does not change what God is doing concerning those who are true Israelites by God's choosing of them."​

What I mean is they are going to be there but we do not know which ones. And that is exactly why Paul was correcting the Roman church's attitude toward preaching to them, reminding the Roman church that God had said there would be a remnant of them who would prove to be true Israelites of God.​

But the New Jerusalem is not that old with its governmental setup. Jesus compared that one to an old garment unworthy of being patched up; and Jesus compared it to old wine skins that would be a waste of time to put new wine (new life) into. (Matthew 9:16-17)​

This is the New Jerusalem: 1 Peter 2:6, 9-10; Hebrews 12:22-24

And as Jacob was father through flesh to flesh, the greater Jacob (Christ) is our father through life-giving spirit to spirit. He as our sacrificial lamb and our great high priest "prevails with God" for us, just as the name Israel means.​

 

[savedbygrace57]

No one has addressed a single point of mine in either posts 117 or 120..

 

[Who Says]

No one has addressed a single point of mine in either posts 117 or 120..

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/romans-9-study-19301/index9.html#post524733

 

[Eventide]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

Yes, I agree. I do not support the idea unconditional election at all. And when I state something as this:

"Those that are the vessels of wrath fit for destruction are those that did not choose life. They would not and they will not. But as Paul said, Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and so that fact does not change what God is doing concerning those who are true Israelites by God's choosing of them."​

What I mean is they are going to be there but we do not know which ones. And that is exactly why Paul was correcting the Roman church's attitude toward preaching to them, reminding the Roman church that God had said there would be a remnant of them who would prove to be true Israelites of God.​

I underlined a part of this which I think is a fundamental problem in Christian thinking.. that some are and some are not vessels fit for destruction.. BECAUSE in Adam we ALL are... not some of us.. ALL of us are under the same condemnation.

The only reason ANY man is the elect is because they are IN CHRIST, and Christ ALONE is the elect of God.. at least imo.. and while you say that you don't believe in unconditional election, it seems that you're looking at election from that pov.. ie, that 'some are' and 'some are not'.. if you know what I mean.

But the New Jerusalem is not that old with its governmental setup. Jesus compaered that one to an old garment unworthy of being patched up; and Jesus compared it to old wine skins that would be a waste of time to put new wine (new life) into. (Matthew 9:16-17)​

This is the New Jerusalem: 1 Peter 2:6, 9-10; Hebrews 12:22-24

I think that this is another danger to the Christian church as Paul teaches in Romans.. about ignoring the mystery pertaining to ISRAEL lest we become wise in our own conceits.. ISRAEL is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then the Deliverer shall come from Sion (The Heavenly Jerusalem) and He shall turn ungodliness from JACOB in that Day..

Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night.. and then late in his life found out that the son of his old age was alive, and ruler over all.. even after being deceived long before that he was dead.. Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the Day is at hand.. and that it will come as travail upon a woman with child.. and that woman will be Israel.. born again and taken through the greatest time of trouble this world has or ever will know.. it's the time of Jacob's trouble.. and we see the birth pangs already..

And as Jacob was father through flesh to flesh, the greater Jacob (Christ) is our father through life-giving spirit to spirit. He as our sacrificial lamb and our great high priest "prevails with God" for us, just as the name Israel means.​

Jacob is not a picture of Christ.. for he is Israel.. ISAAC is the wonderous picture of Christ in the scriptures.. the son of promise who did come through Jacob..

 

[Who Says]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

I underlined a part of this which I think is a fundamental problem in Christian thinking.. that some are and some are not vessels fit for destruction.. BECAUSE in Adam we ALL are... not some of us.. ALL of us are under the same condemnation.

The only reason ANY man is the elect is because they are IN CHRIST, and Christ ALONE is the elect of God.. at least imo.. and while you say that you don't believe in unconditional election, it seems that you're looking at election from that pov.. ie, that 'some are' and 'some are not'.. if you know what I mean.



I think that this is another danger to the Christian church as Paul teaches in Romans.. about ignoring the mystery pertaining to ISRAEL lest we become wise in our own conceits.. ISRAEL is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then the Deliverer shall come from Sion (The Heavenly Jerusalem) and He shall turn ungodliness from JACOB in that Day..

Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night.. and then late in his life found out that the son of his old age was alive, and ruler over all.. even after being deceived long before that he was dead.. Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the Day is at hand.. and that it will come as travail upon a woman with child.. and that woman will be Israel.. born again and taken through the greatest time of trouble this world has or ever will know.. it's the time of Jacob's trouble.. and we see the birth pangs already..



Jacob is not a picture of Christ.. for he is Israel.. ISAAC is the wonderous picture of Christ in the scriptures.. the son of promise who did come through Jacob..

I agree with most of what you say and as for what I don't agree with we will just have to agree to disagree about until God reveals something different to my heart than he has. Afterall, he is the one that loves me because I love him and is the one in charge of making me grow.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

I agree with most of what you say and as for what I don't agree with we will just have to agree to disagree about until God reveals something different to my heart than he has. Afterall, he is the one that loves me because I love him and is the one in charge of making me grow.

There's never a problem with agreeing to disagree.. we're all just sharing the infinitely glorious and limitless aspects of the scriptures which we see as through a glass dimly..

 

[Who Says]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

There's never a problem with agreeing to disagree.. we're all just sharing the infinitely glorious and limitless aspects of the scriptures which we see as through a glass dimly..

Amen brother, Amen.

 

[Drew]

You have some good points Drew. They have some good points also that see the salvation in it. All of us can add to our understanding.

Thanks for reading my post. And I probably was not as clear as I should have been - I entirely agree that Romans 9 does indeed talk about salvation. But I suggest the primary theme is Israel and the way God used her to bring the possibility of salvation to Gentiles.

Those that are the vessels of wrath fit for destruction are those that did not choose life.

I would say that the vessels of desctruction are Jews and Jews only (for reasons I may have explained earlier in this thread, and if not, which I hope to explain later).

Paul's argument is that there is yet a remnant of that true spiritual seed among those vessels of wrath so they yet need the message of Christ preached to them just as to any other nation.

If this remnant is specifically a Jewish remnant, then I would agree with you fully. ​

 

[Who Says]

Thanks for reading my post. And I probably was not as clear as I should have been - I entirely agree that Romans 9 does indeed talk about salvation. But I suggest the primary theme is Israel and the way God used her to bring the possibility of salvation to Gentiles.

You are absolutely right about that theme. But what you miss (or at least I think you miss) is that the promises can be proven to never have been actually made to the flesh Israel. They were used as a demonstration to the world of how God deals with all men. And that is quite provable, too.

I would say that the vessels of desctruction are Jews and Jews only (for reasons I may have explained earlier in this thread, and if not, which I hope to explain later).

In this case yes, you are right. But as I said, they are a demonstration also of the condition of all men. And that is why Paul could say, Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

If this remnant is specifically a Jewish remnant, then I would agree with you fully.

​

Again in this case you are right. But again they were but a demonstration of how God works with all flesh in every nation.

 

[Drew]

You are absolutely right about that theme. But what you miss (or at least I think you miss) is that the promises can be proven to never have been actually made to the flesh Israel. They were used as a demonstration to the world of how God deals with all men. And that is quite provable, too.

Well I agree that in Romans 9, Paul talks about promises that were never made to Israel in the flesh. I may not have said this explicitly but, on the other hand, OI don't think there is anything in my posts that suggests that I do not believe this.

But I disagree in your conclusion that Romans 9 is about how God deals with all men - the part of Romans 9 that speaks of hardened vessels is clearly specific to Israel. This does not mean that God does not, at times, harden people other than Jews, but Paul is not talking globally here in Romans 9 (and 10 and 11).

He is arguing that the strange way that Israel has wound up being a blessing to the nations is through her being largely hardened. That line of thinking definitlely does not generalize. There are many arguments that I can present to support the "Israel-specificity" of chapter 9, at least in relation to the "vessels of destruction" line.

Many Calvinists, of course, see the "vessels of destruction" as denoting all humans pre-destined to loss, whether Jew or Gentile. That position simply cannot stand in light of contextual considerations. After all, in Romans 11 - clearly a continuation of the same overall argument - it is clearly Jews who are characterized as having been hardened.

 

[Who Says]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

I underlined a part of this which I think is a fundamental problem in Christian thinking.. that some are and some are not vessels fit for destruction.. BECAUSE in Adam we ALL are... not some of us.. ALL of us are under the same condemnation.

The only reason ANY man is the elect is because they are IN CHRIST, and Christ ALONE is the elect of God.. at least imo.. and while you say that you don't believe in unconditional election, it seems that you're looking at election from that pov.. ie, that 'some are' and 'some are not'.. if you know what I mean.

In what you say here that is one reason (but only one of a few reasons) why I do not believe individuals are specifically foreordained by name FROM BEFORE the founding of the world to be those elect in Christ. (BEFORE= When Adam sinned which was before Adam had his first child with which this world began being produced of his loins.)

A second reason is that I see that the names did not even begin being written in the book of Life until FROM the foundation of the world. (FROM= After the birth of Adam's first child which constituted the beginning of this world.)

A third reason is that I see evidence that God inspects the hearts of men to decide who those ones called to reign as kings/priests with Christ will be as they are born and live their life.

Ezekiel 34:12 "As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day."

1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if
thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."

I think that this is another danger to the Christian church as Paul teaches in Romans.. about ignoring the mystery pertaining to ISRAEL lest we become wise in our own conceits.. ISRAEL is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then the Deliverer shall come from Sion (The Heavenly Jerusalem) and He shall turn ungodliness from JACOB in that Day..

Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night.. and then late in his life found out that the son of his old age was alive, and ruler over all.. even after being deceived long before that he was dead.. Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the Day is at hand.. and that it will come as travail upon a woman with child.. and that woman will be Israel.. born again and taken through the greatest time of trouble this world has or ever will know.. it's the time of Jacob's trouble.. and we see the birth pangs already..



Jacob is not a picture of Christ.. for he is Israel.. ISAAC is the wonderous picture of Christ in the scriptures.. the son of promise who did come through Jacob..

You are correct here but just incomplete.

Isaac is a picture of the risen glorified Christ Son of God in heaven even as Abraham is a picture of God in heaven. And that is because Isaac was offerred on the alter of sacrifice. This denoted the completed sacrifice of Christ and therefore the risen glorified Christ.

But Jacob pictures the son of man Christ. Jacob was given the name Israel which means "prevails with God" because Jacob wrestled for the blessing on behalf of not just himself but his children to come. And that pictured what Christ the man would do for us by fulfilling that Old Law. Jesus the man prevailed with God for the promises for not just himself but for the benefit of those he would share the benefit of those promises with based upon faith.

The only way God could demonstrate any of this to us was to use the flesh to do so. But his grace has never been about saving that flesh or about offering anyone the gift of salvation on the basis of their fleshly lineage.

That flesh remains condemned in Adam. It is appointed to all men once to die for that very reason as Hebrews 9:27 tells us.

God owes that fleshly nation nothing. What he did through them was begin his show mercy to us all with them included in that same mercy despite their failure to keep that Old Law. He is the potter and he has the authority over the clay to do with it as he wishes. We all can be grateful that he shows no partiality and his plan has always been about saving us all if we humble ourselves to him.

The key is in seeing that when they failed to keep that Old Law they became just exactly as us. And he now deals with us all the same.

That point is plastered everywhere throughout Paul's letters. The entire second chapter of Romans right away begins teaching that point. And the point is maintained throughout Paul's letter.

(1) Romans 2:6 (He) will render to every man according to his deeds:

(2) Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
(3) Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
(4) Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
(5) Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
(6) Romans 2:28a For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly

(7) Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (This is God's choosing and selection)
(8) Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
What is this much in every way? That they heard first before the Gentiles through those oracles and because salvation came from or through their flesh and blood line it ought to make it a bit easier for them to accept that Jesus the Jew is the foretold Messiah that they heard about through those oracles.

(9) Romans 3:9 What then? are we (the Jews) better than they (the Gentiles)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
(10) Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And I could continue tracking that principal theme all the way through Paul's letter that same way. If you will do that and keep tying Paul’s statements into a logical chain, he will tell you what he means in Romans chapters 9-11.

I would explain more here except it probably will not even let me post what I have already typed. Let's hope!

 

[Who Says]

So now very deliberately let's consider:

REMEMBER what Paul discussed in Romans chapter 8 for he has not dropped that theme. He ended there saying: Romans 8:38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us (all the elect in Christ of both Jews and Gentiles) from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And he now says: Romans 9:1 "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart."

Do you see that clear contrast to what he had just finished saying in Romans chapter 8?

Notice how Paul is grieving for his fleshly brothers. He clearly sees many or most of them as in jeopardy of completely loosing their salvation. Else his grieving would be a lack of faith and we know Paul did not lack faith.

Then he says: Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

He thus revealed their condition which grieved him. They were as a nation genuinely accursed from Christ. And this after all of the advantage they had as he again highlights in verses 5 and 6 as he did at Romans chapter 3 which I explained in my prior post.

Now why do I say as a nation? Because Paul goes on to show us that there is yet some among them who God yet intends to save. So in speaking about them collectively as he did in verses 1-3 he has to mean in the general sense of the nation of his brothers. And we see that point more as we continue.

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

There he returns to what his focus was on in chapter 8.

If you follow this through carefully and deliberately connecting Paul's thoughts and keeping his theme flowing as I am showing you here, you will see that in Romans 9-11 Paul is not at all talking about God giving that fleshly nation any priority over any other nation of this earth.

He is only making sure his brothers as to the flesh are given the presentation of the grace of God in Christ through the Gentiles preaching, just as the Gentiles had received it from the Jews in the first place.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

God owes that fleshly nation nothing. What he did through them was begin his show mercy to us all with them included in that same mercy despite their failure to keep that Old Law. He is the potter and he has the authority over the clay to do with it as he wishes. We all can be grateful that he shows no partiality and his plan has always been about saving us all if we humble ourselves to him.

I thought that you said that you wanted to agree to disagree..

Maybe you can explain the mystery to me pertaining to Israel which Paul does not want Christians to be ignorant of lest they become wise in their own conceits.. how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. and how that they are enemies as concerning the GOSPEL and yet beloved for the sake of the fathers..

How about Matthew 19 & 25 where it speaks of the Lord coming again and then sitting upon the throne of His glory with His twelve apostles sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

How about Rev 12 where it speaks of the woman (Israel) being with child then protected in the wilderness for 1260 days..

How about the countless OT stories which teach us this prophetically and thematically..

How about the story of Joseph.. loved by his father (Jacob) and yet hated by his brethren, sold to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver, goes from the pit to the prison to the throne.. is given a Gentile bride.. foretells the future famine that is coming upon the land.. and then his brethren are led to him to find sustenance and he leads them to repentance and restoration.. and JACOB learsn in his old age that his son is not dead as he was deceived into believing.. but alive and ruler over all..

There the story tells the story and in the end Israel is saved, just like Romans 11 says..

Maybe it's all coincidence.. and I don't understand what so many Christians have against ISRAEL...

 

[Who Says]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

I thought that you said that you wanted to agree to disagree..

...............part omitted to save space.............

Maybe it's all coincidence.. and I don't understand what so many Christians have against ISRAEL...

You speak of many things at once which we can talk about one at a time if you desire. I know you think that those things you mentioned are about fleshly Israel but I also know they are not. That is OK. If you want to talk about those things we can. If you do not want to we do not have to. But I chose to use your comment as a platform to work off of for the sake of anyone on this thread. Your thoughts merely assisted setting an order to approach the subject from.

You have ideas that I am not unfamiliar with but they need to be addressed separately. For example Joseph: Joeseph is just another foreshadow of Jesus. The Jews (just as the Jewish father of Joseph thought about Joseph) only thought Jesus was dead but it proved not to be so. Joseph was but another foreshadow of Christ who feeds us during the spiritual famine of this world when everyone else is starving at the time when this world again comes to the state that is Egypt and Sodom in a spiritual sense, which is now.

To see that mystery (which is a poor choice of words for that text to convey the writer's thought) You have to bear in mind that the Gentiles had the attitude that the nation as a whole was not worth their zealously preaching to as they saw it as completely cursed and casted off of God. That is the wise in their own conceit part that they should suddenly think they had become better than the Jews and were not desiring to preach to the Jews as to every other nation of men.

With that in mind the mystery (actually just the thing unseen to them) is that the nation had become just like any of the Gentile nations and God was saving some out of that nation just as he was and is doing in every nation.

No big mystery at all. that is just a poor choice of words in that text. Romans 11:25 For it is my desire, brothers, that this secret may be clear to you, so that you may not have pride in your knowledge, that Israel has been made hard in part, till all the Gentiles have come in;


It was as a secret to those Gentiles who acted as if they did not understand it. The rest of that verse just means for that purpose that the max number which could be saved of the Gentiles would be saved. And the Jews right along with them. Nothing special at the end for that nation. Follow the process in the OT and you will see that the Gentiles are saved as God brings those lost sheep of the house of Israel gradually back into the fold over time back into the fold (only yet a remnant) and draws in the valuable things of the nations with them, this being done all at the same time over the centuries.

Here is the summation of it all: Look and you will find the word "them" is added in this verse by translators:

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded (them) all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I should point out that "unbelief" is a poor choice of words there also at Romans 11:32. As it really is a word that means "disobedience".

Romans 11:32 "For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all." (ASV)

Why is that added them important? Because Paul said basicly the same thing to the Romans there that he said here to the Galatians:

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

And if you ponder what I have already said in the prior two posts you should have no problem seeing this.

If you want other verses in chapter 11 expounded on just ask and I will be happy to expound on them.

Israel as to the flesh is not ignored by Christ. It has become as any other nation. People often confuse the flesh Israel and the spirit Israel. Nobody is hating Israel by understanding what Paul is really saying. Israel is being taken care of as us all. It was those Gentiles that were hating Israel by not being willing to zealously preach Christ to Israel as to any other nation.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

You have ideas that I am not unfamiliar with but they need to be addressed separately. For example Joseph: Joeseph is just another foreshadow of Jesus. The Jews (just as the Jewish father of Joseph thought about Joseph) only thought Jesus was dead but it proved not to be so. Joseph was but another foreshadow of Christ who feeds us during the spiritual famine of this world when everyone else is starving at the time when this world again comes to the state that is Egypt and Sodom in a spiritual sense, which is now.

And what does the simple story tell us in the end.. that JACOB (Israel) learned late in his life that his son (Joseph, a picture of Christ) was alive and that he was ruler over all.. should we just dismiss the fact that his own brethren were led to him (unknowingly) and that they were led to repentance and saved during this great famine...?

To see that mystery (which is a poor choice of words for that text to convey the writer's thought) You have to bear in mind that the Gentiles had the attitude that the nation as a whole was not worth their zealously preaching to as they saw it as completely cursed and casted off of God. That is the wise in their own conceit part that they should suddenly think they had become better than the Jews and were not desiring to preach to the Jews as to every other nation of men.

That's not what the mystery is according to the Apostle to the GENTILES... they mystery is that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. and I hope you know that Israel is the only nation on this earth which is not considered GENTILE.. we also know that Jerusalem (the city of the great King) will be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled..

Here is the summation of it all: Look and you will find the word "them" is added in this verse by translators:

The word of God corrects me, I do not correct it.

Israel is not ignored in Christ. People often confuse the flesh Israel and the spirit Israel. Nobody is hating Israel by understanding what Paul is really saying. Israel is being taken care of as us all. It was those Gentiles that were hating Israel by not being willing to zealously preach Christ to Israel as to any other nation.

There's no such thing as spiritual Israel in the bible.. there is the Israel of God which is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances and there is the church of God which has heavenly citizenship.. one of the largest problems in Christendom today is confounding the Israel of God with the church of God..

If I have told you of earthly things and ye do not believe, how shall ye believe if I tell ye of heavenly things..