romans 9 study

[Drew]

In keeping with the theme of rom 9, rom 10 starts 10:

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Salvation is the subject throughout.

Paul is not only interested in salvation as a bare doctrine. In this text from Romans 10, Paul expresses his desire about Israel - that his fellows Jews end up saved.

We need to be careful here. I am not denying that salvation is a major theme in Romans 9 or in Romans 9 to 11 as a block. What I am asserting is that Paul's principal point in these chapters is to make an argument as to how God has been faithful to His covenant promise to use the nation of Israel to bless the world.

And, yes, Paul's point is that through Israel being "vessels fitted for destruction", salvation has been made available to the whole world.

So no one is denying that salvation is on Paul's mind here. But his real focus is on the matter of God and Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The whole theme of romans is the Gospel of salvation rom 1:


16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

After expounding the who counsel of the Gospel from chpt 1-11 it is then a appeal to practical living in view of the mercies God has given His chosen saints rom 12:

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The therefore is referring all the way back to rom 1:16

 

[mlqurgw]

The "it" does not refer any one thing in particular. Paul has prefaced his "it" statement with a set of examples of God making "the determining choice". So when he writes this:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy

...he is summarizing what he has said to this point - God works in history to achieve His purposes and the will of man cannot "overcome" what God wants to do.

But let's be clear: all the examples he has listed are about how God has worked in history. So all we have warrant to conclude is that Paul is saying that God's purposes will most assuredly be achieved in the outworking of history.

Paul has not been talking about "salvation" issues at all to this point in his argument. So to see the "it" as being "salvation" is to go well beyond what Paul is actually saying.

Do you waltz and Cha Cha too? A good dance but that is all it is. You never really got to the point. I seem to find that in your arguments a lot. It might make a great politician but a terrible theologian.

 

[Drew]

Do you waltz and Cha Cha too? A good dance but that is all it is. You never really got to the point. I seem to find that in your arguments a lot. It might make a great politician but a terrible theologian.

Please engage the actual contents of my argument, and leave the cheap shots aside. I make actual arguments - I am not interested in rhetoric and insult. If you can find actual errors in what I am saying, please feel free to make the relevant case.

So in respect to the post I made: Are all the examples Paul has listed in the first half of Romans 9 about how God has worked in history. I say that they are. Paul tells us what the election of Jacob and Esau was about that one will serve the other. Now please tell us - on what basis would you believe that Paul is making a statement about the eternal destinies of these two, if this is what you indeed believe. He never says that the election was in respect to their eternal destinies. So why should we believe otherwise?

 

[mlqurgw]

The "it" does not refer any one thing in particular. Paul has prefaced his "it" statement with a set of examples of God making "the determining choice". So when he writes this:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy

...he is summarizing what he has said to this point - God works in history to achieve His purposes and the will of man cannot "overcome" what God wants to do.

But let's be clear: all the examples he has listed are about how God has worked in history. So all we have warrant to conclude is that Paul is saying that God's purposes will most assuredly be achieved in the outworking of history.

Paul has not been talking about "salvation" issues at all to this point in his argument. So to see the "it" as being "salvation" is to go well beyond what Paul is actually saying.

Paul is not dealing with history he is dealing with sonship and the promise. His whole argument is concerning the true people of God not being a people born of fleshly decendansce but of the promise, that is of Christ. He is very clearly laying out the principle of electing grace and salvation through it. The it is clearly salvation, or justification as that is the theme of Paul in the preceding chapters. Clearly the "it" is referring to the mercy of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Paul is not dealing with history he is dealing with sonship and the promise. His whole argument is concerning the true people of God not being a people born of fleshly decendansce but of the promise, that is of Christ. He is very clearly laying out the principle of electing grace and salvation through it. The it is clearly salvation, or justification as that is the theme of Paul in the preceding chapters. Clearly the "it" is referring to the mercy of God.

You are on the right track.

 

[Drew]

Paul is not dealing with history.

The text demonstrates that Paul is indeed dealing with history - the history of the nation of Israel.

As the text clearly shows, Romans 9 and 10 is largely a retelling of the history of Israel. This is really clear beyond question.

First we get Abraham, then Isaac and Ishmael, then Jacob and Esau. Sound familiar? It should - this is the beginning of Israel's history. Then we get allusions to Moses and Pharaoh. The chapter (9) then proceed with Old Testament quotes that have to do with exile and return from exile. And finally we get the ingathering of the Gentiles - the very thing that is supposed to happen at the end of Israel's history. And thus, at the beginning of chapter 10, we are at the present day - Paul declares Jesus to be the end of the Law of Moses - the charter of Israel.

Israel's history is unquestionably there - all major elements are represented and in the proper sequence.

 

[mlqurgw]

The text demonstrates that Paul is indeed dealing with history - the history of the nation of Israel.

As the text clearly shows, Romans 9 and 10 is largely a retelling of the history of Israel. This is really clear beyond question.

First we get Abraham, then Isaac and Ishmael, then Jacob and Esau. Sound familiar? It should - this is the beginning of Israel's history. Then we get allusions to Moses and Pharaoh. The chapter (9) then proceed with Old Testament quotes that have to do with exile and return from exile. And finally we get the ingathering of the Gentiles - the very thing that is supposed to happen at the end of Israel's history. And thus, at the beginning of chapter 10, we are at the present day - Paul declares Jesus to be the end of the Law of Moses - the charter of Israel.

Israel's history is unquestionably there - all major elements are represented and in the proper sequence.

The text is talking about the promise not the history. You seem to have missed the key verse. Rom. 9:6.

 

[Drew]

The text is talking about the promise not the history.

You are ignoring the argument that there is a strong historical argument here, and simply denying that this is so. Here is a much more detailed argument:

Romans 9 through the first half of Romans 10 is a re-telling of the entire covenant history of Israel from Abraham to the exile and beyond. To the extent that this is shown to be the case, the view that the potter metaphor is a treatment of the election of some to loss and others to salvation is severely undermined. If Paul’s focus is God’s dealing with Israel, it is highly implausible that he would veer off topic to set forth his beliefs about the pre-destination of individual persons to salvation or loss, a matter with no specific connection to the Israel question.

Paul’s re-telling of the narrative of Israel is detailed and is presented in perfect chronological sequence and is summarized following:

· In chapter 9, verses 1 to 5, Paul expresses his grief at the state of his fellow Jews. So we already have an indication that what is to come will have an Israel focus;

· In verses 7 through 13, we get Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. This is the beginning of the Israel story, set forth in precisely the correct sequence;

· In verses 15 through 18, we get Moses, Pharaoh, and the events associated with the exodus;

· In verse 20, Paul is clearly alluding to the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah and their declarations that, like a potter, God has the right to mold Israel as He sees fit. This alone should be a strong indication that the vessels of destruction are unbelieving Jews – Paul uses the potter metaphor in accordance with Biblical precedent. It is used here in Romans 9, as in Isaiah and Jeremiah, in relation to Israel. It is only because people do not know their Bibles that they see the vessels of destruction as having no Israel-specificity. But, either way, note how we have moved past the exodus and are now in the times of the prophets – the covenant history continues.

· In verse 25, Paul quotes from Hosea 2, a text which deals with the threat of exile and the promise of restoration. And what happens at the time of restoration – God will say to those who were not His people (read: the Gentiles) that they are now indeed part of His family. This is clearly an allusion to various covenant promises in Genesis where Abraham is told that his seed – the Jews – will be “a light and blessing to the nationsâ€.

· In verses 27 and then again in verse 29, we have a reference to Isaiah’s teaching about a remnant who will come out from exile.

· And, of course, verses 31 to 33 bring us to Paul’s time – the Jews have stumbled over the Christ.

· So, in chapter 9 we have a detailed re-telling of Israel’s story, from Abraham to Isaac, to Jacob, to the exodus, to God’s warning about reshaping Israel like a pot, to exile and the promise of restoration, and finally to the Jewish rejection of the Christ.

· But the story does not end there. In 10:1-3, Paul continues with his treatment of the sad state of Israel in the present time (that is, Paul’s time). Clearly, the Jews are still in exile, even if they are physically back in Palestine.

· Now every Jew who knows his Old Testament should have been able to predict what comes after exile – covenant renewal! And that is exactly where Paul takes us. In Romans 10:6, he quotes from a famous passage from Deuteronomy that describes the mercy after exile.

· This is Paul’s vision and hope for the future of his kinsmen – that a remnant will escape the exile of their present unbelief and join the Gentile believer in proclaiming, as per Romans 10:13, that whoever (even the Jew!) calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Now, is this all a coincidence? Has Paul re-told the entire narrative of Israel,
presenting all its important elements in the correct order, without intending to
make an argument about how God is dealing with Israel? Of course not.

So, why would Paul interrupt this detailed and complex story of Israel, right in the middle of it (Romans 9:20), to insert an abstract theological statement about the pre-destination of individuals to an eternal fate, a matter with no Israel-specificity whatsoever? That simply does not make sense. The vessels of destruction are clearly unbelieving Jews. This connects to Paul’s lament about the Jews at the beginning of chapter 9. He explains the sad state of the Jews by explaining that God has hardened them, like a potter hardens his pot.

The potter account is not an abstract, non-historical treatment about God electing some to salvation and some to loss, before time even begins. The entire treatment here is clearly a history. It is the history of God’s dealing with Israel. Why would Paul send us back to the beginning of time (when the alleged “pre-destination†takes place) right in the middle of what is clearly an historical account?

Well, he is doing no such thing. The potter account is part of that history – it is Paul telling us that God has hardened Israel to bring salvation to the world

You seem to have missed the key verse. Rom. 9:6.

No. Romans 9:6 fits perfectly into the "history" of Israel argument - Paul is telling the reader that, as her history evolved, God made choices as to who would be a member of the true people of God and who would not.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 9:16

rom 9:

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It, salvation depends not upon human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. Paul is explaining how being saved is contingent on Gods mercy, not national origin, being born in israel. He reasons from the events of Moses rom 9:


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

As cited from ex 33:

19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Where God was answering moses intercessory prayer for Israel as a whole, but God states in so many words, I will show mercy on whomever I choose to do so, and thats how it is in salvation..

God only had a remnant in national Israel that He was pleased to save by grace or shew mercy rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And thats how it is outside the boundaries of national Israel into the world, God only has a remnant that He has been pleased to save, and as with national Israel, the rest are blinded..

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This is according to God's Sovereign Plan of Salvation..

 

[Drew]

Re: Romans 9:16

rom 9:

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It, salvation depends not upon human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. Paul is explaining how being saved is contingent on Gods mercy, not national origin, being born in israel.

Your view that the "it" here is salvation cannot be supported from the texts. All the examples that Paul has provided in Romans 9 up to the verse 16, where he makes his "so then...." statement have nothing to do with matters of salvation - they are all about God making choices in respect to what happens in this present world.

So while this statement does not rule out the possibility that God pre-destines some to salvation and some to loss, it really does not support it either.

Many see Romans 9 as supporting the view that some are pre-destined to salvation and some to loss. However, I suggest that the overall argument does not really sustain such a view. Paul is not making a general theological argument here - he is instead addressing how God has dealt with the nation of Israel in history, and showing how Israel's fate is bound up with the matter of salvation being made availalble to the whole world.

Please do not misread me - salvation is a concern in Romans 9 (and 10 and 11). But I suggest that Paul's argument is basically that the nation of Israel has been "hardened" - like a potter hardens a vessel fitted for destruction - so that the world can be saved. So while salvation is at issue here, Paul is not saying that God has pre-destined certain specific individuals to final salvation and others to final loss.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew;

Your view that the "it" here is salvation cannot be supported from the texts.

I just showed you. Where in the text does it say salvation is not supported ?

 

[Drew]

drew;



I just showed you. Where in the text does it say salvation is not supported ?

You continually use this incorrect line of argument - expecting that your position on a text is correct since there is no explicit assertion that the opposite position is correct.

That's like saying "Fred must be guilty of murdering Joe since there is no evidence that he is innocent"

Or, equally, I could say "Paul is talking about how some people are pre-destined to have big noses" and then defending that position by saying "there is no evidence that Paul is not talking about pre-destination to different nose sizes.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

You continually use this incorrect line of argument

can you provide us where that it says in the text that salvation cannot be supported in rom 9 16 ?

 

[Drew]

drew:



can you provide us where that it says in the text that salvation cannot be supported in rom 9 16 ?

Not going to play this game....

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not going to play this game....

Then why start them ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Is romans 9 about Salvation ? Many have denied this, especially that most hated part rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

But Look at vs 11, The contrast between works and calling evidences that salvation is in view, and not mere national election.

Also if we go back to the beginning of rom 9:1-3

1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Why is Paul distressed ? Does not Paul's solicitude regards individuals being saved ?

What about vs 4-5 ? What is the Hope of Israel here ?


4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

This is the hope of the saved Isralites like zacharias John the baptist Father notice lk 1:


67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

This is what rom 9:4 is talking about..and this is salvation..

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps one of the greatest lessons to be learned from Romans 9-11 is the mystery pertaining to Israel, and how they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and how it's important that Christians are not ignorant of this mystery lest we become wise in our own conceits..

And sadly enough.. multitudes within Christendom ignore this important mystery pertaining to the nation of Israel.. and confound the church of God with the Israel of God..

 

[Drew]

Perhaps one of the greatest lessons to be learned from Romans 9-11 is the mystery pertaining to Israel, and how they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and how it's important that Christians are not ignorant of this mystery lest we become wise in our own conceits..

And sadly enough.. multitudes within Christendom ignore this important mystery pertaining to the nation of Israel.. and confound the church of God with the Israel of God..

Absolutely, 100 % correct. Romans 9 to 11 is about Israel, not about a general theology whereby all human beings are either pre-destined to heaven or to hell.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 9 on salvation !

Other scriptural evidence that romans 9 is about salvation from the mention of the Children of God vs 8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Cp with gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Matt 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

lk 20:36

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Jn 11:52

And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

1 jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 jn 5:2

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Now in all these NT references the Children of God is regarding salvation, not ethnicity or a nation..