Rushed into Marriage by the Church

[highlife]

I have faith in jesus I am just a non dramatic person some times I think the church is melodramatic but there is enough content there for a new thread I don't believe something is sin if they can't prove it ie a direct scripture saying the piece of paper is mandated. I do agree that lagit difficult situations shape who you are and ones future.

 

[highlife]

highlife, again I do wonder what your testimony is...why you consider yourself a Christian?

The fact that you had 0 conviction over living a sinful lifestyle can only mean that you either have quenched the Spirit, or that you truly are not a Christian in the first place.

I can't prove to myself that it was sinful that's the real issue I believe god gave me my wife and that the piece of paper was a formality maybe a time will come where I'm reading the bible and think oh my goodness what we did was not good but I am not there yet I have to prove every thing in life to myself I take nothing at face value that's just how my mind works

 

[woodlandapple]

this may be past the point of rebuttle,



But im interested in where you got your definition of Porneia from highlife?

I dont think it means what you claim it means (or doesnt mean), and If Im wrong then Im going to fail my greek exam on monday.

 

[Tina]

I believe god gave me my wife and that the piece of paper was a formality

The same God Who gave you your wife also instituted government authorities in every nation that legalizes marriage through written and signed document.


Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.


Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities - that is what God's Word above says. No country today recognizes a marriage without a marriage certificate that is issued by the relevant government authorities instituted by God which citizens and residents are required to obey not only in accordance with the country's regulations but also in obedience to God's Word !


Not only that .... Did you know that certificate of divorce is mentioned in the Bible throughout both the OT and NT ?

Interesting, isn't it ?

You argue that marriage paper isn't mentioned, but how do you reckon compulsory issue of certificate of divorce if there is no confirmation of marriage through witnesses in the form of paper or ceremony ?

 

[Denique Coelum]

this may be past the point of rebuttle,



But im interested in where you got your definition of Porneia from highlife?

I dont think it means what you claim it means (or doesnt mean), and If Im wrong then Im going to fail my greek exam on monday.

The Wikipedia entry for fornication agrees with highlife's definition. Beyond that, as a student of Greek you'll know better than me, woodlandapple!

 

[highlife]

this may be past the point of rebuttle,



But im interested in where you got your definition of Porneia from highlife?

I dont think it means what you claim it means (or doesnt mean), and If Im wrong then Im going to fail my greek exam on monday.

I thought it basicly meant prostitution if not then I'm wrong, it's not impossible I have been wrong before, there are still 2 out standing issues even if I am wrong, sex slaves were condoned in ot and the specific requirements to be married are not spelled out in the bible but at least we are getting closer and at the end of the day I hope to learn something

 

[handy]

The specific requirements of marriage are not spelled out in the Bible, because the bible is written across a vast expanse of time and changing society.

What is clear...and what you seem most unwilling to concede... is that there were in fact specific requirements for marriage...even if we don't know exactly what they were in all aspects of the changing culture of the Hebrew nation over several millennia ...and especially in Christianity which isn't confined to any nation or time period.

There is no example within the Scripture of God being just OK with two people living together without some kind of formal, legally binding act called marriage.

There is however several examples...which I'm not going to repeat yet again, of how marriage was undertaken in the Old Testament.

I'm not sure why you are so unwilling to concede that merely living together is not, and never has been, considered "married" in the eyes of God. You're married now, so really the only thing you face is humbling yourself before God and admitting the mistake and asking forgiveness of it. Well, and backing off of your pastor and church leadership for following through on well-defined biblical discipline in the matter.

As for the sex slaves condoned in the OT...slavery itself was condoned in the OT...stoning people was condoned in the OT... stoning your child if he got uppity was condoned in the OT... lots of things were condoned in the OT that are not part of Christianity.

Do you ever read your NT? We are Christians...not Jews. We live under a new covenant an new set of rules which, as a matter of fact, recognizes only marriage and not concubines or sex slaves.

 

[woodlandapple]

"jono rolls his sleeves up and opens his bible dictionary - marshall et al. 2009, ivp reference collection"

sex slaves= ex21:7-11 and Dt. 15:12 distinguishes between an ordinary slave and a 'sex slave' who is to be treated as a daughter, and warns that they cannot be deprived of food, clothing and marital rights. thiswould almost certainly suggest a formal arrangement , and a ceremony of sorts that can be recognised, however simple it may be.

It is commonly asserted that a master did have sexual rights over a female slave but the bible ddoesnt actually say anything about this, although it probably did take place.

Marriage:
clothes worn on wedding day:
embroided garment ps.45:13-14
jewels Is.61:10
a girdle Je.2:32
a veil Gn.24-65

Bridesmaids Ps. 45:14
groomsmen Jdg.14:11

THe procession and dinner to be held in the evening f the day of marriage
Gn.29:22
Jdg.14
this was probably fairly common as implied by the parable of the 10 virgins Mt.25:1-13

The marriage feast:
Mt.22:13;25:6, Mt.22:1-10, Jn. 2:9, Jn.2:3
a refusal to go to this feast was an insult Mt.22:7
The guests where expected to wear festive clothing Mt.22:11-12

I could continue to show passages refering to the

Covering of the bride
parents blessing
marriage covenant
the bridechamber
consumation
festivities Gn.29:27

in conclusion, marriage is the state in which a man and woman can livee sexually together WITH THE APPROVAL OF THEIR SOCIAL GROUP.

whilst in the old days there was no slip of paper, there was ceremonies, formalities (eg. dowries) and public celebrations. It was formal and it was recognised and it was public. and it was LAWFUL.

like a wedding ceremony and a marriage certificate is today.

further reading:
W.R. Smith, kinship and marriage in early arabia 1903
H. Granquist, Marriage condtions in a palestinian village 1935
M. Burrows, the basis of Israelite marriage 1938
E. Neufeld, Ancient Hebrew marriage laws 1944
D. R. Mace, Hebew marriage 1953

 

[Mike]

Highlife, it may be true that God allowed polygamy and concubines to exist, but it never says He approved of it. There were many things that David and other biblical figures did that were not in accordance with God's Desire. The fact that they were not struck down does not imply that He was happy with them. Whenever marriage is specifically addressed, it is between 1 man and 1 woman. Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, Genesis 2... In Deuteronomy 17, God said that kings were NOT supposed to multiply in wives.

Look at all the advice given to us in His Word about a man and a wife. Look at all the descriptions of the union of 1 man and 1 woman. If someone wants to pervert scripture to support his case, no matter what it is, they can do it. But if you look at the biblical model of marriage shown throughout the Word, it is a monogamous relationship. Trouble follows when this model is not embraced.

As for your sheet of paper, Tina had a good point about the certificate of divorce. It sounds like you're trying to find a loophole in the "contract" between God and man. Whether there was a piece of paper or not, when two were joined in marriage, there was a poignant moment when they were before God and pledged themselves to each other.

This is similar to someone adamantly refusing to be baptized because he doesn't see the need, IMO. Why such refusal to something? Why put the foot down and dig in trenches? It's disobedience and hard-headedness.

You can find all the loopholes you want to justify your position, or you can submit to God's Will, reject "self", and find joy in Him. If you cannot do that, you are not in Him, and He's not in you.

 

[highlife]

Thoes are good points, I can see a sex slave being an even lesser "wife" so to speak. I understand each culture has its definition of marriage, I guess the core of my point is we are in the midst of a culture shift in this nation where more and more monogomus couples are simply dating/meeting up making some kind of agreement between themselves and then living togther. As long as their commitment is genuine in that meeting why should it be any less valid?

The couple knows when they have this meeting if it is a relationship or if its a a one night stand/FWB, I have done that before in the past and know its not right, you can definitly feel the conviction but I dont feel that same conviction when I met with my wife and we basicly had a courtship discussion, talked about sex and sex acts that will be performed, finances, kids, etc. We were not going to a chruch at the time but why would that not be lagit. It is the changing social norm and it is no less commital than a couple doing it the traditional way. We did want to make sure things were going to pay out thats true, but dont couples that later divorce 3-4 years later are doing the same thing? We basicly set up our own arranged marriage without all the old traditions.

Functionally I dont see any difference, if one of the partys in such arrangement is decieving the other than thats a different issue but that could easily happen in a legal marriage and frequently does almost exclusivly on the womans side since she benifits the most from the legal system, the new way of doing things is so that the man can at least somewhat protect himself until he knows beyond a shawdow of a doubt that its going to work out, pretty hard for a woman to fake it for 3-6 years. If they ended up breaking up it would be equivalent to a divorce and in fact in some states they would be considered common law marriage.

So you can understand if I think the church is out of line in raining down a storm of guilt and shame over something that is both not in the bible AND is a shifting culture change in our very society. I can see if they said that its a good idea to get the paper but to claim they are living in sin without it I dont think is correct.

 

[theLords]

The problem you are having is that you are using your flawed, human reasoning to determine right from wrong. Of course, since you are determining morality by your flesh, your lusts win, because the flesh strives against the Spirit.

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

What was in your heart back then? You didn't want to give up your sex life, even if there was a small chance of you being in rebellion to God, because sex was more important to you than the God who gave His life to save you from your sins.

Thoes are good points, I can see a sex slave being an even lesser "wife" so to speak. I understand each culture has its definition of marriage, I guess the core of my point is we are in the midst of a culture shift in this nation where more and more monogomus couples are simply dating/meeting up making some kind of agreement between themselves and then living togther. As long as their commitment is genuine in that meeting why should it be any less valid?

What will you do when the culture shifts to allow homosexual marriages? What will you do when the culture condones adultery? Why are you letting hedonistic culture keep you in bondage to your whims and lusts of the flesh?

What happens when a couple living together decides to break up? If you and your then-girlfriend had decided it didn't work out, you two would both have been guilty of defrauding each other. You both would have had to bring a sinful sexual history to any new partner. Do you think that is godly? To use someone for sex, and throw them away because you found your personalities were incompatible and decided to break up? Legally married couples (married through the state and/or Church) both have a harder time considering getting divorced. Those who are simply living together can much more easily call it quits, and that is a shame.

The truth of the matter is that marriage is a covenant between God, the couple, the couple's parents, and community. The Bible is proof of such marriage practices. Furthermore, the Jews to this day still have a "piece of paper" just like in the Old Testament.

Contract (she'tar). The man gives the woman a deed, before two witnesses, which contains the names of the couple and the groom's marriage formula. This deed is not in the nature of evidence of the marriage, but is for the purpose of effecting the bond of marriage. It is not to be confused with the ketubah, which is given as protection of the woman after the kiddushin.

The couple knows when they have this meeting if it is a relationship or if its a a one night stand/FWB, I have done that before in the past and know its not right, you can definitly feel the conviction but I dont feel that same conviction when I met with my wife and we basicly had a courtship discussion, talked about sex and sex acts that will be performed, finances, kids, etc. We were not going to a chruch at the time but why would that not be lagit. It is the changing social norm and it is no less commital than a couple doing it the traditional way. We did want to make sure things were going to pay out thats true, but dont couples that later divorce 3-4 years later are doing the same thing? We basicly set up our own arranged marriage without all the old traditions.

You lack the testimony of the power of the Holy Spirit walking in your life. When a person sins, they sear there conscience. You went from feeling convicted for one night stands, to no longer feeling convicted. Every time you sin, and refuse to repent, you quench the Holy Spirit making it easier and easier for you to sin, until at last God gives you over to the desires of your heart.

Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Couples who are divorcing because it "didn't work out" after 3-4 years, are just as guilty of sin, as those who live together. You are comparing one type of sin against another type of sin to try to justify your own sin. You'll never get anywhere that way.

Functionally I dont see any difference, if one of the partys in such arrangement is decieving the other than thats a different issue but that could easily happen in a legal marriage and frequently does almost exclusivly on the womans side since she benifits the most from the legal system, the new way of doing things is so that the man can at least somewhat protect himself until he knows beyond a shawdow of a doubt that its going to work out, pretty hard for a woman to fake it for 3-6 years. If they ended up breaking up it would be equivalent to a divorce and in fact in some states they would be considered common law marriage.

The "new way" of doing things is not Godly nor Biblical. You are blinded by the lusts of the flesh. You are simply looking for convenience and not desiring to live a holy life. Your trust is not found or placed in God.

So you can understand if I think the church is out of line in raining down a storm of guilt and shame over something that is both not in the bible AND is a shifting culture change in our very society. I can see if they said that its a good idea to get the paper but to claim they are living in sin without it I dont think is correct.

No, I cannot understand how you can call yourself a Christian and be so rebellious to the commands of God. You don't even try to hide the fact that you simply love sex (and yourself) more than you love God.

You keep stating that marriage is not in the Bible, but you refuse to acknowledge that your argument has been refuted over and over again. You are only believing it because you want to believe it, and for no other reason.

There is no justification of sin, and if you persist on in your sin, it is not going to be nice to face God on the Day of Judgement (Especially, if you are guilty of leading others astray).

I noticed that in another thread you shared that you do not feel the assuredness of Salvation and being welcomed into heaven with a "Well done, good and faithful servant." There is a reason you are not secure in God, repent and receive the Salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that you will not be lost to him for eternity.

 

[theLords]

Handy and Mike, I find it rather humorous that in five pages, not one of us remembered Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan women at the well! (That Scripture was totally quickened to me by the Holy Spirit :D)

John 4:18 (NLT)
for you have had five husbands, and you aren't even married to the man you're living with now. You certainly spoke the truth!"

highlife, here you have the very words of Jesus Christ, who recognized that simply living together is sin. You have no more excuses for believing otherwise. Any further attempts for you to deny that living together and having sex outside of marriage (ie. a state marriage or a church marriage or both) is simply open rebellion to the Words of God.

 

[highlife]

Of course we know little of the specifics of the woman at the well but never the less she was not condemned of SIN. So in one neath it's ok to justify the fact that tradiditions change but when it changed in a direction the church does not like they lash out (out side of the homo marriages which is clear in the bible) that is why church is loosing relevance but more and more are turning to the bible alone absent of the stanch quality of life draining traditions of man

 

[theLords]

Of course we know little of the specifics of the woman at the well but never the less she was not condemned of SIN.

Well, it doesn't surprise me that you are not very familiar with the story of the Woman at the Well. The woman at the well was guilty of sin. In those days women drew water from the well together early in the morning, it was like a social hour. The Samaritan woman was drawing water alone around noon. Why? Because she was guilty of sin and shunned by her society!

If you want to state that the women was not in sin, then you better be extremely sure, that you know the context, the culture, and the reality of the story!

So in one neath it's ok to justify the fact that tradiditions change but when it changed in a direction the church does not like they lash out

No, it's not okay to justify sexual immorality because "traditions change." Marriage is not some tradition, like reciting a prayer before church services. The Bible gives us very real warnings about the End of the Age, in which "good will become bad and bad become good" and how sin will run rampant. The institution of marriage is being destroyed, pedophilia is rampant throughout the society, and murder is at it's highest peaks. Do you think that just because pedophilia happened less back then and more so now, that it makes it any less evil when it did occur in the past?

(out side of the homo marriages which is clear in the bible)

You would be surprised. There are Christians who fight against the Biblical truth that homosexuality is sexual immorality just as shallowly as you fight to say pre-marital sex is not sin.

that is why church is loosing relevance but more and more are turning to the bible alone absent of the stanch quality of life draining traditions of man

Relevance? Do you think that Christianity is for puffing up the egos of men? Proclaiming, "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at Hand!" has never and will never be relevant to our modern hedonistic societies.

If you are one who has abandoned the Church, and going by the Bible alone, let me tell you, with your understanding of Scripture and justifications of sin, you have abandoned the Bible and God.

 

[handy]

highlife, be careful of thinking that just because Jesus didn't condemn the woman at the well of sin, that means the behavior wasn't sinful. He didn't condemn the woman caught at adultery either.

This is something to remember...God lays downs His principles. He also states that all of us are sinners. No one has lived a sin free life except Jesus Himself. And yet, God also states that someone like an obviously flawed King David was a man after His own heart. He stated that Noah was a righteous man...and didn't bring up anything sinful about Noah...who was just as much a sinner as the rest of us.

Also take note that the very definitions of pornia that you were speaking of yesterday forms the foundation of many who are now teaching that homosexuality isn't a sin either. This I know because I was once a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church who now ordains homosexual ministers...as long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship...which they view as godly marriage.

The truth of the matter is that marriage is a covenant between God, the couple, the couple's parents, and community. The Bible is proof of such marriage practices.

Absolutely correct! This is what rings true about each specific mention of marriage in the Scriptures...that there was a covenant that was recognized between the couple, their families and the community. Frankly, God isn't really mentioned all that much in these specific instances...but the man, woman, family and community is. (With the exception of the wedding at Cana..but since that was a wedding, I'm sure we can all agree they were married.)

You know, highlife, I do believe that there is room for grace in this subject. Yesterday when talking about hokey-romantic movies with my daughter...and this thread being very much on my mind...I was reminded of the old, scandalous for it's time, movie "The Blue Lagoon". Two young kids, boy and girl, are shipwrecked and the only survivors on an island. They grow up together with no other humans, and eventually have sex and have a baby. Married in the eyes of God and each other...sure thing...absence of any community.

But, most of us live our lives within our community, and if we are Christian we have both the worldly community and the community of the Church. A simple read through the Scriptures will show that God cares very much that we live holy lives in our communities and abstain from even the appearance of evil. Worldly people have the privilege of saying, "It's my life, I can do what I want." We Christians are to live our lives as bond-servants to the Lord and follow His commandments and principles and be examples of God's holiness to the world and our communities...not the least of which is marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman.

 

[woodlandapple]

So you can understand if I think the church is out of line in raining down a storm of guilt and shame over something that is both not in the bible AND is a shifting culture change in our very society. I can see if they said that its a good idea to get the paper but to claim they are living in sin without it I dont think is correct.

adressing your first point........ enought passages have been thrown around that a significnt case can be made that Gods expectations are shown through the bible. Yes, there is no book of dating and marriage hiding behind malachi (although I think we all wish there was) yet theologically speaking the evidence is overwhelming for Gods desire for a formal, public and celebrated marriage.
But if you still disagree, a question I have for you is why are you right, when every church leader and eveery biblical scholar that I have read, seen or listened to on this matter disagrees with you?

second point, the cuture shift can be linked to the sexual revolution of the 60's, hardly a Godly moment. this shift statistically has led to higher divorce rates, higher birth rate outside of wedlock, which has led to an increase in abortions, etc.
Just because it is a culture shift doesnt make it right.

at the end of the day though, a private agreement between a bf and gf as to whether they consider themselves married or not is not theologically sound, and leaves the question, who are they really honouring in the relationship? them, or God?

Personally, without actually being there and hearing what the pastors where saying, or how they where saying it it is impossible for me to tell whether they where being unjust, or lovingly rebukeful. and I dont think anyone on this forum who wasnt there should offer an opinion on this.

My advice to people who arnt married, but who consider themselves married would be to have a serious discussion on what they would think God wants, rather than what they want.

 

[highlife]

I understand what everyone is saying but the absense of the scripture that everyone wishes was there is really the key issue. No matter how much some congregations wish it were there so they could better justify their guilt trips and control tactics, its simply not. Sure that may have been what the jews did in OT times or even what some people do now days but that does not change the fact that the process and cerimony itself is a man made tradition.

I error on the side of freedom, the whole sex thing seems erily like control tactics once you have weeded out all the issues of homo marriage, FWB, prostitutes, etc. When you boil it down to a monogomus couple without a piece of paper there really is no scriptural backing just alot of strong opinions whos precidents rest on old man made tradtions and not what is actually in the bible. To claim that a couple getting together and determining for themselves the marriage is somehow like homos getting married or some other such abomination is disengenuous.

Also taking the error on the side of freedom there are much more reasons for divorce than the few exceptions in the NT, there are alot of different things a person can do to sin against their spouse and the church saying its not adultry so there for you have to tolerate it is control and its one of the big problems the church has. No common sense is allowed and it hurts people. I cant buy into such things. I agree that divorce is not good and hopefully it can be avoided but to shun people who have lagit common sense reasons to divorce but dont fit the narrow exceptions in the NT is a problem. The OT was not specific about it.

These are some of the biggest issues the church has, and if they keep comming down with an iron fist on things they cant prove christians will not be taken seroiusly. Also when there is no compassion for and allowance for divorce and remarriage your going to have alot of people upset about that, intimate relationships are crutial to human interaction and development and to try to control that and make peoples lives miserable is a travesty. Trying to get an abused spouse to agree that THEY sinned for first filing the paper work is abusurd, none the less to say well it scripture such and such it says you cant divorce if your husband is beating you or your wife is defrauding you, but you can separate and live alone the rest of your days lol.

We desperatly need a christian revolution like martin luther, etc. There are some really twisted ideas out there that are not consistant with freedom or the love of God.

 

[theLords]

Acts 7:51 (NLT)
"You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That's what your ancestors did, and so do you!

I think this will be my last post in this thread, because you are simply defiant, stubborn, and set in your sin. Sex is more important to you than God, and if you are not careful, your whole body will be lost because you choose to continue on in sexual immorality.

highlife, you are accountable for your sin, and unrepented sin is going to wreck havoc in your life. Do you think it coincidence that you came to a Christian forum seeking answers to a question? Do you find it odd that you cannot get sex off of your brain or think highly of sex slaves (concubines)? The Bible says, as I have shown you before, that the sin of rebellion makes one guilty of idolatry and witchcraft. Those are dangerous sins to partake of, because involvement in witchcraft gives the devil a role of power over your life. Repent, because God "will not contend with man forever" (Genesis 6:3) and "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us." (Hebrews 10:29, NLT).

James 4 (ESV)
You adulterous people![c] Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

I understand what everyone is saying but the absense of the scripture that everyone wishes was there is really the key issue. No matter how much some congregations wish it were there so they could better justify their guilt trips and control tactics, its simply not. Sure that may have been what the jews did in OT times or even what some people do now days but that does not change the fact that the process and cerimony itself is a man made tradition.

highlife, you have been shown over and over and over again, that marriage in the Bible is a Covenant that takes place between God and the couple, and community. There is no absence of Scripture concerning marriage, but there is an absence that states living together and having sex is blessed by God and not sin. You have not once, been able, to prove your claim Biblically. Your only desire to not "go get a piece of paper" was because your wife wanted to a fancy wedding (why are you following the traditions of the world by having a big, fancy wedding? Why wasn't a small non-traditional wedding okay for you? Hmmmm....). You did not want to separate from your wife because you did not want to stop having sex.

Search your heart, highlife, you are in the pits of the darkness of sin, and blinded by Satan. Your flesh rules your life. Your lusts are #1. Repent, brother, and be found blameless before the Lord, lest you be amongst those who fall away.

I error on the side of freedom, the whole sex thing seems erily like control tactics once you have weeded out all the issues of homo marriage, FWB, prostitutes, etc. When you boil it down to a monogomus couple without a piece of paper there really is no scriptural backing just alot of strong opinions whos precidents rest on old man made tradtions and not what is actually in the bible. To claim that a couple getting together and determining for themselves the marriage is somehow like homos getting married or some other such abomination is disengenuous.

You do not err on the side of freedom, you err on the side of the world, and the world is bondage of the highest degree. The Bible extols us repeatedly and repeatedly to abstain fro sexual immorality, to even abstain from the appearance of evil! You are following your lusts, why not just admit that to God and repent, if you are not fooling any of us mere humans here, you are not fooling God.

Fornication (sex outside of marriage) is a corroding malevolent sin in the world. It destroys the hearts of men and women. If it didn't work out with your now wife, you would have been forced to start over, that means more living together and more sex with girlfriend B, and if that didn't work, then sex with girlfriend C, and if that didn't work out, sex with girlfriend D. What if it never worked out? Would you just have given up hope and had sex with whatever caught your eye? Do you not realize the seriousness of this kind of living? Would you consider yourself a 4x divorc[FONT=Comic Sans MS,Comic Sans MS,Arial]é[/FONT]?

Marriage is an institution that is set to protect both men and women from casual sex and the abuse that comes with being used for someone else's pleasure. Marriage is the foundation of a life long relationship. Biblical marriage is a picture of our marriage to God.

Also taking the error on the side of freedom there are much more reasons for divorce than the few exceptions in the NT, there are alot of different things a person can do to sin against their spouse and the church saying its not adultry so there for you have to tolerate it is control and its one of the big problems the church has. No common sense is allowed and it hurts people. I cant buy into such things. I agree that divorce is not good and hopefully it can be avoided but to shun people who have lagit common sense reasons to divorce but dont fit the narrow exceptions in the NT is a problem. The OT was not specific about it.

The Bible is very clear on when someone can divorce. You are making up your morality as it comes to you. You do not believe in the Word of God, you believe in humanism and pragmatism. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself abandoning your faith when trials hit you in the future, or when you simply cannot take any more conviction of sin.

God bless you, highlife, and may He have mercy and lovingkindness on your soul.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[highlife]

Acts 7:51 (NLT)
"You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That's what your ancestors did, and so do you!

I think this will be my last post in this thread, because you are simply defiant, stubborn, and set in your sin. Sex is more important to you than God, and if you are not careful, your whole body will be lost because you choose to continue on in sexual immorality.

highlife, you are accountable for your sin, and unrepented sin is going to wreck havoc in your life. Do you think it coincidence that you came to a Christian forum seeking answers to a question? Do you find it odd that you cannot get sex off of your brain or think highly of sex slaves (concubines)? The Bible says, as I have shown you before, that the sin of rebellion makes one guilty of idolatry and witchcraft. Those are dangerous sins to partake of, because involvement in witchcraft gives the devil a role of power over your life. Repent, because God "will not contend with man forever" (Genesis 6:3) and "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us." (Hebrews 10:29, NLT).

James 4 (ESV)
You adulterous people![c] Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us� 6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.†7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.




highlife, you have been shown over and over and over again, that marriage in the Bible is a Covenant that takes place between God and the couple, and community. There is no absence of Scripture concerning marriage, but there is an absence that states living together and having sex is blessed by God and not sin. You have not once, been able, to prove your claim Biblically. Your only desire to not "go get a piece of paper" was because your wife wanted to a fancy wedding (why are you following the traditions of the world by having a big, fancy wedding? Why wasn't a small non-traditional wedding okay for you? Hmmmm....). You did not want to separate from your wife because you did not want to stop having sex.

Search your heart, highlife, you are in the pits of the darkness of sin, and blinded by Satan. Your flesh rules your life. Your lusts are #1. Repent, brother, and be found blameless before the Lord, lest you be amongst those who fall away.

You do not err on the side of freedom, you err on the side of the world, and the world is bondage of the highest degree. The Bible extols us repeatedly and repeatedly to abstain fro sexual immorality, to even abstain from the appearance of evil! You are following your lusts, why not just admit that to God and repent, if you are not fooling any of us mere humans here, you are not fooling God.

Fornication (sex outside of marriage) is a corroding malevolent sin in the world. It destroys the hearts of men and women. If it didn't work out with your now wife, you would have been forced to start over, that means more living together and more sex with girlfriend B, and if that didn't work, then sex with girlfriend C, and if that didn't work out, sex with girlfriend D. What if it never worked out? Would you just have given up hope and had sex with whatever caught your eye? Do you not realize the seriousness of this kind of living? Would you consider yourself a 4x divorc[FONT=Comic Sans MS,Comic Sans MS,Arial]é[/FONT]?

Marriage is an institution that is set to protect both men and women from casual sex and the abuse that comes with being used for someone else's pleasure. Marriage is the foundation of a life long relationship. Biblical marriage is a picture of our marriage to God.

The Bible is very clear on when someone can divorce. You are making up your morality as it comes to you. You do not believe in the Word of God, you believe in humanism and pragmatism. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself abandoning your faith when trials hit you in the future, or when you simply cannot take any more conviction of sin.

God bless you, highlife, and may He have mercy and lovingkindness on your soul.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Some people are 4X divorcee's and Jesus did not take the harsh stance that the modern church does. The woman at the well was a multipule time divorcee and Jesus did not come down on her like a lead brick like some christians do, she was not even asked to repent or that her situation was even sin, the whole event was a non issue yet we have christians having "talks" and exchanging harsh words over the same situations. I see christian leadership that is willing to destroy relationships and go way over the top for some thing that Jesus did not even see the need to declair as sin. Pretty stark difference, I think I will follow Jesus rather than some of the modern christians.

It really is sad though, to have so many broken relationship and harsh words exchanged over such an issue.

My original question was I just wanted our church leadership to prove what they were saying and they cant and neither can you, but there is no shortage of harshness. It is really very sad.

 

[handy]

There are some really twisted ideas out there that are not consistant with freedom or the love of God.

At last...something that I'm in complete agreement with you on.


I'm a huge, huge proponent of Christian liberty...something that has cause more than one PM to me over the years here...folks thinking that I'm a little too free...

But, when it comes to the issue of marriage versus just living together...sorry highlife...you are so wrong when it come to this issue. Perhaps willfully blinded.

Everyone here has made it crystal clear that marriage is different than just living together and that biblical marriage was more than just two people deciding to live together monogamously. I'm especially impressed with woodlandapple's contributions to this subject.

Marriage, as you have been shown with biblical examples, were legally binding, and involved families and communities...You can try to bluster about the absence of Scripture regarding a specific piece of paper all you want...No one here is buying it, nor did your church leadership and most of all...God isn't either.

Whether He chooses to forgive you of your hardheartedness and rebellion regarding this is obviously up to Him...I know He desires to extend grace far more than wrath...but, you're on the wrong side of this issue. It's been clearly shown to you that you are.

I'm bowing out of this discussion now, because there really doesn't seem to be any point in continuing on about it. You have everything you need to come to a correct understanding about Christian marriage... however, it seems more than apparent that you are going to ignore what has been presented to you.

I have to wonder why you brought the subject up in the first place if you weren't willing to seek out the truth...