salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

Those who do not remain in Christ will not have eternal life.

This claim has not been proven from Scripture. In fact, Scripture guarantees the inheritance of the one "having believed" for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

How should someone understand v.14?

I have never stated that we can be removed, but it is specifically stated that we can leave if we so chose to.

This claim is contradicted because "be removed" and "leave" mean essentially the same thing. The only way to avoid being contradictory is to understand that leaving means ceasing to believe, not being unsealed, which is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

1Jo 2:24
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

There are NO verses that teach that we have the power to remove ourselves from being in union with Christ. And verses that prove that our union with Christ is permanent. A guarantee. When God guarantees something, that is permanent.

 

[Nathan]

This claim has not been proven from Scripture. In fact, Scripture guarantees the inheritance of the one "having believed" for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

How should someone understand v.14?


This claim is contradicted because "be removed" and "leave" mean essentially the same thing. The only way to avoid being contradictory is to understand that leaving means ceasing to believe, not being unsealed, which is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.


There are NO verses that teach that we have the power to remove ourselves from being in union with Christ. And verses that prove that our union with Christ is permanent. A guarantee. When God guarantees something, that is permanent.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Gal 3:26
for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2Ti 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus

Heb 3:12-19
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This claim has not been proven from Scripture. In fact, Scripture guarantees the inheritance of the one "having believed" for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14"

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How does this verse change the very plain language of Eph 1:13,14? Please explain.

What 1 John 5:12 DOES NOT SAY is that one who has the Son can lose the Son.

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Once again, Eph 1:13,14 guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption. There is NO WAY to EVER lose our position IN HIM. And you've provided zero verses to support your claims.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Gal 3:26
for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2Ti 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus[/QUOTE]
OK, 7 verses with the phrase "in Christ". Does that prove or even demonstrate that one who is in Christ can lose that position? No, it doesn't. Eph 1;13,14 doesn't permit the view that being in union with Christ can be undone or the person can be taken out of being in union with Christ.

Heb 3:12-19
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

To "share in Christ" isn't about getting saved or maintaining our salvation. It's about partnership, which is how we have FELLOWSHIP with Him.

As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

If v.19 is understood to be about salvation, then Moses himself wasn't saved. Because he, too, was not able to enter the promised land. Why? His own unbelief.

But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Num 27:14 - for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.) {By disobeying God's command, Moses was NOT believing God.}

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

How could Moses have lost salvation, since he appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?
Matt 17:2-3
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

Those who remain in Christ will never perish - that is what one should believe.

It would be a false, and very misleading belief, to say that just 'believing' about Jesus is the way of salvation. Demons believe themselves, but they will not be given salvation.

Belief in Christ, is based on what He has done for you and wants to do in you. If you are going to believe in Christ as He states, then you are going to believe that you cannot have eternal life if you were to leave Him.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"This claim has not been proven from Scripture. In fact, Scripture guarantees the inheritance of the one "having believed" for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14"

How does this verse change the very plain language of Eph 1:13,14? Please explain.

What 1 John 5:12 DOES NOT SAY is that one who has the Son can lose the Son.

Once again, Eph 1:13,14 guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption. There is NO WAY to EVER lose our position IN HIM. And you've provided zero verses to support your claims.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Gal 3:26
for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2Ti 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus
OK, 7 verses with the phrase "in Christ". Does that prove or even demonstrate that one who is in Christ can lose that position? No, it doesn't. Eph 1;13,14 doesn't permit the view that being in union with Christ can be undone or the person can be taken out of being in union with Christ.

To "share in Christ" isn't about getting saved or maintaining our salvation. It's about partnership, which is how we have FELLOWSHIP with Him.


If v.19 is understood to be about salvation, then Moses himself wasn't saved. Because he, too, was not able to enter the promised land. Why? His own unbelief.

But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Num 27:14 - for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.) {By disobeying God's command, Moses was NOT believing God.}

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

How could Moses have lost salvation, since he appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?
Matt 17:2-3
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Hebrews chapter 3 is most certainly about salvation. The fact that the people were not able to enter God's promise land is most certainly about the same rest of salvation we have. Moses broke faith, but then returned to God. The people who kept breaking faith never returned to God.

The same relation can be seen with Judas and Peter. They both denied Christ, but only Peter returned.

The verse specifically states they were not able to enter due to unbelief - the writer of Hebrews is using that situation as a metaphor for those who fall away from God in unbelief and do not return because their heart becomes so hardened.

Sharing in Christ is exactly what it says - partaking in Christ. There is no need to try and twist and make it mean something else it does not mean. It specifically is speaking about falling away from God - not breaking fellowship. There again is no reason to put words into the passage that are not there.

Heb 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Jesus said it this way -

Jhn 6:53-54
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

If you are not feeding on Christ, you have no life in you. Only those who feeds on His flesh, and drinks His blood has eternal life.

 

[dirtfarmer]

No, that is up to your Lord.

Mine is to look into the scriptures and align my life with what the word says, to obey the Spirit within and the doctrine that comes from the scriptures.



Here is what His Apostles were appointed to do:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

If His Apostles were not His sheep, His Church, then whose sheep are they?

Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus teaching His Church leadership, what will happen on the Day of Judgement, when He comes on the last Day, and all His people are gathered before Him.

Here are those of His people, who will receive eternal life: Who will inherit the kingdom of God.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

This takes place on earth, when the Lord comes and Judges His people.

Inherit the kingdom is the phrase Jesus used to show we are granted access, and have a part in God's Kingdom.

• ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these words:

• “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Here Paul teaches the Gentiles the same thing.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

and again

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10




JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Your statement: "to look into the scriptures and align my life with what the word says, to obey the Spirit within and the doctrine that comes from the scripture." I ask you, is your salvation in the scriptures?
Jesus said in John 6:36, " But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. So, it is the "works" that Jesus does that bears witness to him.

In John 5:39 Jesus made this statement:" Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and(but) they are they which testify of me." Our eternal life is not in scriptures. They, scriptures, are word pictures of our savior. Our eternal life is in Jesus Christ, in his resurrection after paying the sin debt of the whole world. Eternal life is given by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Eternal life is Jesus Christ. Faith is given to us to believe and know we are in Him.

1 John 5:20 (ESV)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

The problem we routinely run into is that we think life is given apart from Christ - as if eternal life is a thing someone possesses, as if Christ 'gives it out'. That's simply just not right.

 

[JLB]

Why would anyone consider John 5:24, which was the clear context for this post, to be "no Scripture"??

The condition for eternal life, as stated by Jesus, in John 5:24, I do not find in your post anywhere.

The words of John 5:24 are not found in your post # 647, which is why I stated the plain and clear fact, indicating so.


Here is your post from # 647 for all to see and examine, to see if the words from John 5:24 are found in your post anywhere.

You've done so repeatedly, and every time misunderstood what v.24 is saying.

The facts, that those who believe (currently, or at the present time):
1. HAVE (as in POSSESS) etenral life
2. WILL NOT come into judgment or condemnation
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God and taught that God's gifts are irrevocable.
#2 is a direct promise for the believer to never end up in the lake of fire.
One who has passed from death to life CANNOT reverse course and pass back into death because Scripture NEVER says such a thing.


Yes, they do. Eternal security.

Here is John 5:24, and the condition for eternal life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

There are conditions of a hearing and believing present tense, that are required by Jesus for a person to qualify for eternal life.

Here is how the YLT and NASB says it:

• `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. John 5:24 YLT

• “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB

Furthermore, Jesus also teaches us from the context, more about eternal life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul teaches us the same thing:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

We see here that God will judge each one according to their deeds.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Then we see the judgement will be for either eternal life or not; indignation and wrath

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Here is Jesus on that Day, Judging His people, by these very standards:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46




JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Your statement: "to look into the scriptures and align my life with what the word says, to obey the Spirit within and the doctrine that comes from the scripture." I ask you, is your salvation in the scriptures?
Jesus said in John 6:36, " But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. So, it is the "works" that Jesus does that bears witness to him.

In John 5:39 Jesus made this statement:" Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and(but) they are they which testify of me." Our eternal life is not in scriptures. They, scriptures, are word pictures of our savior. Our eternal life is in Jesus Christ, in his resurrection after paying the sin debt of the whole world. Eternal life is given by faith in Jesus Christ.

• Thanks for using scripture, to teach us our salvation comes from the Lord, and not the scriptures.

My Salvation if from Jesus Christ, in which I was born again by the Spirit, Baptized in water, and also Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

My faith is in Jesus Christ for eternal life, which means I have the hope of eternal life.

However, instruction in righteousness and doctrine are from the scriptures, which also make us wise unto salvation.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ?

If you do, then you have the hope of salvation; the hope of inheriting eternal life.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

• we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

• Thanks for using scripture, to teach us our salvation comes from the Lord, and not the scriptures.

My Salvation if from Jesus Christ, in which I was born again by the Spirit, Baptized in water, and also Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

My faith is in Jesus Christ for eternal life, which means I have the hope of eternal life.

However, instruction in righteousness and doctrine are from the scriptures, which also make us wise unto salvation.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ?

If you do, then you have the hope of salvation; the hope of inheriting eternal life.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

• we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before, there are 3 stages of salvation
1.Saved from the penalty of sin. No longer enemies and separated from God. Of the household of faith. Ephesians 2:19, " Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of faith."
2.Saved from the power of sin.. Romans 6:14 " For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
3. When we are raptured or have been resurrected incorruptible and immortal( 1 Corinthians 15:51-53), we will be with Christ and sin and death will not be in our presence.

 

[JLB]

I am simply taking into account all of what God has said to us, not just a few choice passages here and there.

Those who do not remain in Christ will not have eternal life. Eternal life is only had in Christ.

I have never stated that we can be removed, but it is specifically stated that we can leave if we so chose to. It is Christ desire that we not leave - He wants us to abide in Him - but He does not force us to do so.

1Jo 2:24
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The error we are seeing posted over and over is that a person does something to 'possess' eternal life - and once they do something to possess it then they have it regardless of what they believe/do in the future.

Eternal life is only in Christ - and salvation is through faith. If you do not have Christ, and you leave the faith, then you do not have eternal life and you do not have salvation. You cannot do anything to receive salvation - those who say you can do something to receive salvation are lying and preaching a false gospel.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[JLB]

3. When we are raptured or have been resurrected incorruptible and immortal( 1 Corinthians 15:51-53), we will be with Christ and sin and death will not be in our presence.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life = ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life = ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

JLB

And you can take that to the bank.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life = ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

So, salvation has nothing to do with faith or Christ paying the sin debt of the whole world? If eternal life is determined by doing good or doing evil, then why did God send his Son, Jesus Christ, to the cross. Is doing good keeping the law and doing bad breaking the law? What about those that are not in the graves, but still alive, what happens to them?

 

[FreeGrace]

Hebrews chapter 3 is most certainly about salvation. The fact that the people were not able to enter God's promise land is most certainly about the same rest of salvation we have.

So then, from that notion, Moses lost salvation and didn't make it to heaven. Which is totally disproved by the plain fact that he was present when Jesus was transfigured.

Moses broke faith, but then returned to God. The people who kept breaking faith never returned to God.

I see. Kinda like a yo-yo then. Get saved, lose it, get saved again, lose it again, and on and on. Which text gives us this kind of insight?

My point was that Moses was in the SAME BOAT as the rest of the first generation, except Caleb and Joshua. So if "entering the promised land" is equivalent to entering heaven, then Moses WAS NOT SAVED.

The verse specifically states they were not able to enter due to unbelief - the writer of Hebrews is using that situation as a metaphor for those who fall away from God in unbelief and do not return because their heart becomes so hardened.

Moses could NOT enter the promised land. Is that understood?

[QUOT]Sharing in Christ is exactly what it says - partaking in Christ. There is no need to try and twist and make it mean something else it does not mean.[/QUOTE]
It means fellowship. We do NOT "partner" with Christ regarding our salvation. That's the view of the RCC.

If you are not feeding on Christ, you have no life in you. Only those who feeds on His flesh, and drinks His blood has eternal life.

I am hoping this is a metaphor and not literal. As a metaphor, what does it mean to you?

 

[FreeGrace]

• Thanks for using scripture, to teach us our salvation comes from the Lord, and not the scriptures.

My Salvation if from Jesus Christ, in which I was born again by the Spirit, Baptized in water, and also Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

My faith is in Jesus Christ for eternal life, which means I have the hope of eternal life.

Why hope for something already POSSESSED?? Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And in John 10:28 He said this: "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."

This is very plain language. Jesus gives eternal life WHEN one believes. And from THAT moment, He promises that the recipients will never perish.

Is it possible for recipients of eternal life to perish? Jesus said no. What is your answer?

 

[JLB]

Why hope for something already POSSESSED?? Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And in John 10:28 He said this: "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."

This is very plain language. Jesus gives eternal life WHEN one believes. And from THAT moment, He promises that the recipients will never perish.

Is it possible for recipients of eternal life to perish? Jesus said no. What is your answer?

You have ignored what the actual scriptures say, opting to quote only a part of the scripture.

This is not the way of understanding God's word.

Freegrace said:
Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.

The scripture says: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


There are conditions of a hearing and believing present tense, that are required by Jesus for a person to qualify for eternal life.

Here is how the YLT and NASB says it:

• `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. John 5:24 YLT

• “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB

Furthermore, Jesus also teaches us from the context, more about eternal life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And in John 10:28 He said this: "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."

Again, you only quote a part of the verse, and ignore the context.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

Here in John 10:28, is a little word that you never mention, in the part of the verse you quote.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

"And" is the Link word, that links the result with the condition.

Example: My men work all week for me and I pay them on Friday.


Here is what the scripture actually says:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Sheep are qualified as those who believe.

Those who believe, are His sheep in which they hear His voice, follow Him, and He knows them; resulting in Him giving them eternal life.


Of course, the context is Jesus speaking of His 12 disciples, being His sheep.


Never the less, here are the conditions, by which Jesus gives those who hear His voice, and follow Him, and know Him, eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Here is the scriptural definition of eternal life: knowing Him.


This same John who recorded Jesus words in John 5, John 10, and John 17, also testifies:

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[JLB]

So, salvation has nothing to do with faith or Christ paying the sin debt of the whole world?

Why would you say such a thing?

If eternal life is determined by doing good or doing evil, then why did God send his Son, Jesus Christ, to the cross.

Here is the scriptural definition of eternal life: knowing Him.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This same John who recorded Jesus words in John 5, John 10, and John 17, also testifies:

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JLB

 

[JLB]

Is doing good keeping the law and doing bad breaking the law?

Here is a brief list from Jesus.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36


Then there is:

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:17-18


Casting out devils, laying hands on sick people and they get well are also the works of Him who dwells in us, as well as interceding and praying for people in an unknown tongue beyond our own understanding.


Loving people, and demonstrating the life of our risen Savior in our actions, as we obey His leadings in our life.

Faith working by love.


On the other hand, we can obey the lustful desires of the sin that dwells in our flesh, which expresses itself in anger, and lying, and adultery, fornication, homosexuality, stealing, idolatry, and the like.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB