salvation and the loss of it

[dirtfarmer]

Brother this is after the resurrection and rapture, when Jesus returns, to take His place on His throne in Jerusalem.

This is the Day of Judgement.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Matthew 24:31


The entire context of Matthew 24-25, the Olivet Discourse is about this event, the Coming of the Lord, and the signs that He gives us to observe.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

Starting in Matthew 24:45 He begins to teach about what it will be like for the servants or people of His house; His kingdom, when He returns.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


This context continues right up to and through the end of the Olivet Discourse, and establishes the context for verse 31.


Look at the reason for. His decisions He makes about eternal life and eternal death, on the Day we will stand before Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 12:38 when the scribes and Pharisees ask for a sign, what did Jesus tell them in verse 39? Did he not say that an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He also said that no sign shall be given other than his resurrection, which is the sign of the prophet Jonas.

The Church is to rule and reign with Christ as his bride, they will not be subjects of his earthly kingdom, as you so espouse.

 

[Nathan]

Isaiah 56-57
1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; and let not the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.
6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, "I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered."
9 All you beasts of the field, come to devour- all you beasts in the forest.
10 His watchmen are blind; they are all without knowledge; they are all silent dogs; they cannot bark, dreaming, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 The dogs have a mighty appetite; they never have enough. But they are shepherds who have no understanding; they have all turned to their own way, each to his own gain, one and all.
12 "Come," they say, "let me get wine; let us fill ourselves with strong drink; and tomorrow will be like this day, great beyond measure."

1 The righteous man perishes, and no one lays it to heart; devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from calamity;
2 he enters into peace; they rest in their beds who walk in their uprightness.
3 But you, draw near, sons of the sorceress, offspring of the adulterer and the loose woman.
4 Whom are you mocking? Against whom do you open your mouth wide and stick out your tongue? Are you not children of transgression, the offspring of deceit,
5 you who burn with lust among the oaks, under every green tree, who slaughter your children in the valleys, under the clefts of the rocks?
6 Among the smooth stones of the valley is your portion; they, they, are your lot; to them you have poured out a drink offering, you have brought a grain offering. Shall I relent for these things?
7 On a high and lofty mountain you have set your bed, and there you went up to offer sacrifice.
8 Behind the door and the doorpost you have set up your memorial; for, deserting me, you have uncovered your bed, you have gone up to it, you have made it wide; and you have made a covenant for yourself with them, you have loved their bed, you have looked on nakedness.
9 You journeyed to the king with oil and multiplied your perfumes; you sent your envoys far off, and sent down even to Sheol.
10 You were wearied with the length of your way, but you did not say, "It is hopeless"; you found new life for your strength, and so you were not faint.
11 Whom did you dread and fear, so that you lied, and did not remember me, did not lay it to heart? Have I not held my peace, even for a long time, and you do not fear me?
12 I will declare your righteousness and your deeds, but they will not profit you.
13 When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you! The wind will carry them off, a breath will take them away. But he who takes refuge in me shall possess the land and shall inherit my holy mountain.
14 And it shall be said, "Build up, build up, prepare the way, remove every obstruction from my people's way."
15 For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.
16 For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made.
17 Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and his mourners,
19 creating the fruit of the lips. Peace, peace, to the far and to the near," says the LORD, "and I will heal him.
20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

I was down at the ocean this last week. I stood out and fished in tropical storm Cindy. I watched as the waves beat the shoreline I was standing in, they would bring up debris and then pull them right back out to sea again.

I though this is what it's like for those who have no anchor. Always back and forth, never sure, being sure about something one minute and then having to convince themselves of something the next.

 

[JohnDB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 12:38 when the scribes and Pharisees ask for a sign, what did Jesus tell them in verse 39? Did he not say that an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He also said that no sign shall be given other than his resurrection, which is the sign of the prophet Jonas.

The Church is to rule and reign with Christ as his bride, they will not be subjects of his earthly kingdom, as you so espouse.

I'm not sure exactly how this logic works. Can you please explain it out as if I was from Missouri ?(show me state).

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm not sure exactly how this logic works. Can you please explain it out as if I was from Missouri ?(show me state).

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

The believer is to live by faith, not looking for signs. Signs are for those that are looking for the earthly kingdom. I am an heir and joint heir with Christ. I am alive by the life that Christ lives in and through me. I have no fear of what man can do to me for I know if this "earthly house", my body, is destroyed, I have a habitat that is reserved for me in heaven. Jesus said in John, "I go to prepare a place(habitat) for you that where I am there ye may be also"

Even if I don't experience death before Christ returns I know that "I will be change in a moment and twinkling of a eye". If I do experience death before Christ returns I know that I will be resurrected bodily and be incorruptible and immortal.

The Jews that are alive after the tribulation will receive an earthly kingdom that is ruled by Christ and his bride, the church, of which I am a part of.

 

[WIP]

I said:
"OK, I agree that any believer who turns away from God will be miserable here on here. No doubt. However, wouldn't you agree that WHEN such a person enters eternity WITH God, and WITHOUT his old sinful human nature, his attitude will markedly improve?"

How so?


But why not the biblical point of view, where Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish?

I think we are both making assumptions. You assume once someone enters heaven, even if it was against their will, they will change their attitude. I assume that the opposite may be true, that said person will be miserable. I think it is pointless to argue about it because we would both be arguing our opinions and not necessarily a known truth.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In Matthew 12:38 when the scribes and Pharisees ask for a sign, what did Jesus tell them in verse 39? Did he not say that an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He also said that no sign shall be given other than his resurrection, which is the sign of the prophet Jonas.

The Church is to rule and reign with Christ as his bride, they will not be subjects of his earthly kingdom, as you so espouse.

Brother, this teaching from the Olivet Discourse is to His Church Leadership, to teach His Church and their disciples.

If Matthew 24-25 is not for the Church then please give the scripture in Matthew 24 and 25 that says His teaching is not for the Church.

His people, His servants, will stand before Him Him on the Day of Judgement, and He will render to each one according to their deeds.


Context:

• you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:2-11

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, vs. 6-8

This is a snapshot of that Day of Judgement, where He will render to each one according to His deeds:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I just explained and wrote out what the scriptures with the context say:

You've done so repeatedly, and every time misunderstood what v.24 is saying.

The facts, that those who believe (currently, or at the present time):
1. HAVE (as in POSSESS) etenral life
2. WILL NOT come into judgment or condemnation
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God and taught that God's gifts are irrevocable.
#2 is a direct promise for the believer to never end up in the lake of fire.
One who has passed from death to life CANNOT reverse course and pass back into death because Scripture NEVER says such a thing.

Both Jesus and Paul Teach the exact same thing.

Yes, they do. Eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think we are both making assumptions. You assume once someone enters heaven, even if it was against their will, they will change their attitude. I assume that the opposite may be true, that said person will be miserable.

I am not assuming anything. I know that at our physical death, we are separated from our sinful body and nature. We leave it in the ground.

The Bible says we will be glorified, just as Jesus was glorified on the Mount of Transfiguration before 3 of His disciples. How can a glorified body in heaven have anything to do with sin of any kind? It suggest it is your assumption that we will still be able to sin in heaven.

Salvation is related to all 3 tense:
Past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin. Called justification
Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Called sanctification
Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Called glorification

Do you believe these 3 tenses of salvation?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Brother, this teaching from the Olivet Discourse is to His Church Leadership, to teach His Church and their disciples.

If Matthew 24-25 is not for the Church then please give the scripture in Matthew 24 and 25 that says His teaching is not for the Church.

His people, His servants, will stand before Him Him on the Day of Judgement, and He will render to each one according to their deeds.


Context:

• you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:2-11

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, vs. 6-8

This is a snapshot of that Day of Judgement, where He will render to each one according to His deeds:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

2 questions
1. Was the Church, the body of Christ, established before Christ was crucified on the Cross and before the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
2. Was Jesus alive and walking the earth when Matthew 24 & 25 were spoken by Jesus?

The answer to the first is NO. The answer to the second is yes.
Christ had not yet established the Church in Matthew 24 & 25, so, if Christ was still walking in his earthly body, then he had to be speaking to Israel, not the Church. Matthew 10:5-6 :" These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but, unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Eugene]

.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (Are there any among us that is born of God?); but He that is begotten of God (Who is this - the first begotten?) keepeth himself (Are we those the begotten keeps?), and that wicked one (Wicked one? oh this is getting too hard.) toucheth him not. (Hopefully we don’t think this is speaking of Jesus having to keep Himself to avoid Satan touching Him)

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God (Well, some believe they can get up and just walk away, and may not yet believe they have eternal life.) and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (Of course we that are of God are not of the world - yet another separation between the believer and the unbeliever? Jn 15:19. Oh my.)

Joh 6:37 . . .him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world . .

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

As concerning the body of Christ, the Church

1Co 15:52 . . . the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (We’ll have no attitude problems with our glorified bodies)

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

There is a pretty good article on this at https://www.gotquestions.org/glorified-bodies.html .

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

2 questions
1. Was the Church, the body of Christ, established before Christ was crucified on the Cross and before the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
2. Was Jesus alive and walking the earth when Matthew 24 & 25 were spoken by Jesus?

The answer to the first is NO. The answer to the second is yes.
Christ had not yet established the Church in Matthew 24 & 25, so, if Christ was still walking in his earthly body, then he had to be speaking to Israel, not the Church. Matthew 10:5-6 :" These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but, unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

So the 12 Apostles who were sent to preach the Gospel, were not His Church?

All of the Church for the first 10 years were Jews from Israel.

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:15-19


Jesus spoke prophetically about His coming at the end of the age, when all His people would be gathered from all the nations, on the Day of Judgement.


Brother, this teaching from the Olivet Discourse is to His Church Leadership, to teach His Church and their disciples.

If Matthew 24-25 is not for the Church then please give the scripture in Matthew 24 and 25 that says His teaching is not for the Church.

His people, His servants, will stand before Him Him on the Day of Judgement, and He will render to each one according to their deeds.


Context:

• you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:2-11

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, vs. 6-8

This is a snapshot of that Day of Judgement, where He will render to each one according to His deeds:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

 

[JLB]

You've done so repeatedly, and every time misunderstood what v.24 is saying.

The facts, that those who believe (currently, or at the present time):
1. HAVE (as in POSSESS) etenral life
2. WILL NOT come into judgment or condemnation
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God and taught that God's gifts are irrevocable.
#2 is a direct promise for the believer to never end up in the lake of fire.
One who has passed from death to life CANNOT reverse course and pass back into death because Scripture NEVER says such a thing.


Yes, they do. Eternal security.

And in the face of the scriptures I quoted, you have none, choosing only to reflect from your opinion.

Do you believe that faith working by love, has a work involved, such as giving a hungry person food.
Giving a freezing person some clothes?
Visiting a person in prison or when there sick?

Expressing faith, is obeying God; The Holy Spirit within us.

No matter what station of life we are in, or how young or old in the Lord, we can obey His Spirit within, and learn and grow in these working expressions of faith.

Nothing else matters but faith working by love.

Whether it is giving a cup of water to a thirsty child, or food to a hungry person, or laying hands on a sick person and seeing them healed, or casting the devil out of a tormented soul, we have all been called to do good works, that are inspired by His righteous Life within.

Look at the reason for. His decisions He makes about eternal life and eternal death, on the Day we will stand before Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"You've done so repeatedly, and every time misunderstood what v.24 is saying.

The facts, that those who believe (currently, or at the present time):
1. HAVE (as in POSSESS) etenral life
2. WILL NOT come into judgment or condemnation
3. HAS PASSED from death to life."

And in the face of the scriptures I quoted, you have none, choosing only to reflect from your opinion.

Ha. Apparently you missed my noting of v.24 from John 5. But maybe that's not Scripture in your view. Especially since that verse refutes much of your views.

 

[dirtfarmer]

So the 12 Apostles who were sent to preach the Gospel, were not His Church?

All of the Church for the first 10 years were Jews from Israel.

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:15-19


Jesus spoke prophetically about His coming at the end of the age, when all His people would be gathered from all the nations, on the Day of Judgement.


Brother, this teaching from the Olivet Discourse is to His Church Leadership, to teach His Church and their disciples.

If Matthew 24-25 is not for the Church then please give the scripture in Matthew 24 and 25 that says His teaching is not for the Church.

His people, His servants, will stand before Him Him on the Day of Judgement, and He will render to each one according to their deeds.


Context:

• you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:2-11

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, vs. 6-8

This is a snapshot of that Day of Judgement, where He will render to each one according to His deeds:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

So you have the ability to look upon my heart and determine that I have not been saved?

The fallacy of your asking for a quote from Matthew 24 & 25 that states that it is not for the Church is in the fact that at that time the body of Christ (the Church) had not been established. Jesus Christ had not been to the cross so the Church had not yet been established.

 

[JLB]

So you have the ability to look upon my heart and determine that I have not been saved?

No, that is up to your Lord.

Mine is to look into the scriptures and align my life with what the word says, to obey the Spirit within and the doctrine that comes from the scriptures.

The fallacy of your asking for a quote from Matthew 24 & 25 that states that it is not for the Church is in the fact that at that time the body of Christ (the Church) had not been established. Jesus Christ had not been to the cross so the Church had not yet been established.

Here is what His Apostles were appointed to do:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

If His Apostles were not His sheep, His Church, then whose sheep are they?

Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus teaching His Church leadership, what will happen on the Day of Judgement, when He comes on the last Day, and all His people are gathered before Him.

Here are those of His people, who will receive eternal life: Who will inherit the kingdom of God.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

This takes place on earth, when the Lord comes and Judges His people.

Inherit the kingdom is the phrase Jesus used to show we are granted access, and have a part in God's Kingdom.

• ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these words:

• “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Here Paul teaches the Gentiles the same thing.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

and again

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your post # 647 that I quoted contains no scripture, and since you see no need to use scripture then I see no need to keep quoting the scriptures that are surely ignored.
JLB

This is from post #647:
You've done so repeatedly, and every time misunderstood what v.24 is saying.

The facts, that those who believe (currently, or at the present time):
1. HAVE (as in POSSESS) etenral life
2. WILL NOT come into judgment or condemnation
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God and taught that God's gifts are irrevocable.
#2 is a direct promise for the believer to never end up in the lake of fire.
One who has passed from death to life CANNOT reverse course and pass back into death because Scripture NEVER says such a thing.

Why would anyone consider John 5:24, which was the clear context for this post, to be "no Scripture"??

What I haven't done is ignore the verses presented in your posts. What I have done, and repeatedly, is to explain what they really mean.

What is clear from Scripture is the guarantee of eternal security.

Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

So, the BASIS for never perishing is on what Jesus GIVES, which is eternal life.

It's never based on our works.

The only requirement for receiving eternal life is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 6:40
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

In 6:40, Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that He personally will raise them up at the last day.

The guarantee of eternal security is ironclad in Scripture. Guaranteed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Those who believe that recipients of eternal life can perish, for any reason, are in direct conflict with the promises of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, that is up to your Lord.

Mine is to look into the scriptures and align my life with what the word says, to obey the Spirit within and the doctrine that comes from the scriptures.

Scriptures guarantee the doctrine of eternal security.

What is clear from Scripture is the guarantee of eternal security.

Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

So, the BASIS for never perishing is on what Jesus GIVES, which is eternal life.

It's never based on our works.

The only requirement for receiving eternal life is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 6:40
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

In 6:40, Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that He personally will raise them up at the last day.

The guarantee of eternal security is ironclad in Scripture. Guaranteed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Those who believe that recipients of eternal life can perish, for any reason, are in direct conflict with the promises of Jesus.

Is your view that some recipients of eternal life can perish?

 

[Nathan]

Those who remain in Christ will never perish - that is what one should believe.

It would be a false, and very misleading belief, to say that just 'believing' about Jesus is the way of salvation. Demons believe themselves, but they will not be given salvation.

Belief in Christ, is based on what He has done for you and wants to do in you. If you are going to believe in Christ as He states, then you are going to believe that you cannot have eternal life if you were to leave Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who remain in Christ will never perish - that is what one should believe.

More than that. One should believe what Jesus promised: recipients of eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

You've expressed the view that some who have been sealed IN HIM can somehow be unsealed from Him, or no longer saved, by some various actions on the person's part.

Yet, there has been NO Scripture provided that teaches any of this. And plenty of clearly worded and plain language verses that teach that our sealing is permanent. Just as the indwelling (sealing) of the Spirit is permanent.

It would be a false, and very misleading belief, to say that just 'believing' about Jesus is the way of salvation. Demons believe themselves, but they will not be given salvation.

I certainly agree with your first sentence. Salvation is not about "believing about" Jesus. Salvation comes from bevieving IN Jesus for salvation. Trusting Him to save us. We aren't saved UNTIL we believe in Him for it. Plainly stated in Scripture.

However, your second sentence is irrelevant. First, James 2:19 has nothing to do with believing for salvation. What the demons believe in v.19 is that "God is One", which ALL Jews believed, yet weren't saved for believing that. It's an abuse of that verse in James to try to compare what the demons believe with saving faith in Christ.

btw, the demons believe that God is One because they have all EXPERIENCED life with God in eternity past before God created humanity. So their belief comes from EXPERIENCE, not faith. They haven't believed in monotheism on the basis of being told about it and believing it. They experienced it.

Jesus made the point to doubting Thomas that he believed because he EXPERIENCED Christ's resurrection. But then Jesus noted, "blessed are they who believe but have NOT SEEN."

If you are going to believe in Christ as He states, then you are going to believe that you cannot have eternal life if you were to leave Him.

You've shown no evidence from Scripture that any believer can be unsealed by the Holy Spirit leaving the believer. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us (believers) forever. That is to be believed. John 14:16

It is a serious error to believe that anyone who has been sealed in Him can be unsealed, or removed from being "in Him".

The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

I do not understand why that isn't crystal clear to anyone who reads that verse. The sealing is permanent. Our inheritance (salvation and living with God forever) is guaranteed.

No believer can be removed from Him. The few verses that speak of being severed from Christ refer to being out of fellowship with Him and inability to produce any fruit for Him.

Fellowship with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is biblical.

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 John 1
3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
4 We write this to make our joy complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness (sin), we lie and do not live out the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

 

[Nathan]

I am simply taking into account all of what God has said to us, not just a few choice passages here and there.

Those who do not remain in Christ will not have eternal life. Eternal life is only had in Christ.

I have never stated that we can be removed, but it is specifically stated that we can leave if we so chose to. It is Christ desire that we not leave - He wants us to abide in Him - but He does not force us to do so.

1Jo 2:24
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The error we are seeing posted over and over is that a person does something to 'possess' eternal life - and once they do something to possess it then they have it regardless of what they believe/do in the future.

Eternal life is only in Christ - and salvation is through faith. If you do not have Christ, and you leave the faith, then you do not have eternal life and you do not have salvation. You cannot do anything to receive salvation - those who say you can do something to receive salvation are lying and preaching a false gospel.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.