Cygnus
Member
I think the bible is pretty clear that the opening of her heart allowed her to believe. But, you can believe whatever you want to believe.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Salvation belongs to the Lord.
- Thread starter Cygnus
- Start date
I think the bible is pretty clear that the opening of her heart allowed her to believe. But, you can believe whatever you want to believe.
Butch5
Member
Yes, opening her heart allowed her to believe.But, to say she never would have believed otherwise is speculation. God opened her heart for a reason. If He hadn't she may have believed later on in life.
This is a red herring of a reply. You didn't deal with the passages I raised, John 6:44 (ESV) and John 12:32 (ESV).
You obviously took no note of what I wrote about the verb, helkuo and how to translate it.
We can't have a logical discussion when you a logical fallacy.
Oz
Cygnus
Member
That's possible..but all I have to go on is what is written in the bible. God opened her heart and she believed. Perhaps if God didn't open her heart now He would have done it later. That answer we'll never know. As I said, all I have to go on is what is written in the bible.
Romans 9:18 also tells us.... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
Cygnus
Member
A little more about the word...1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.
edited. Comment about hate speech removed.
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Cygnus
Member
In John 12:32 who are the "all people" and what is meant by "to myself"?
Your post makes it sound like everyone gets saved...but we know that is not the case.
Cygnus
Member
Cygnus:If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.
In the days of Acts....what was a worshiper of God? From what I understand a "worshiper of God was a Gentile who embraced Israel's monotheistic faith and the law's moral norm but didn't fully convert to Judaism with respect to dietary and other ceremonial rules...or so my footnotes say.
Until God opened Lydias heart...she wasn't saved.
In the days of Acts....what was a worshiper of God? From what I understand a "worshiper of God was a Gentile who embraced Israel's monotheistic faith and the law's moral norm but didn't fully convert to Judaism with respect to dietary and other ceremonial rules...or so my footnotes say.
Until God opened Lydias heart...she wasn't saved.
13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:13-14
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
If God moves upon someone to believe, the person must do their part in obeying.
This corresponding act of obedience is the work of believing.
Faith without this action of obedience is dead.
If God didn't choose to send His only begotten Son into the world to die for our sins, we would all be lost.
Cornelius was saved also, as he prayed to God and gave alms, having also heard and obeyed the Gospel.
Abraham was a Gentile, and the first member of the Church, as paradise was named after Him.
In the days of Abraham, he was a believer and follower of the Lord Jesus [before he became flesh].
The Abrahamic Covenant is the covenant we are grated into today, as it has been "refreshed" and is called the new covenant, since Jesus became flesh, and confirmed that Covenant He made with Abraham, in which Abraham's pert of the "blood covenant" was circumcision.
And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2
Abraham, obeyed His Voice, and walked with Him by faith.
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2
JLB
Thank you for doing that. I note that when you quoted the meaning of helkuo you used Strong's Concordance. That is not the way to obtain meanings of Greek words. Please use Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon or Thayer's Greek lexicon. They are the dictionaries for Greek etymology and not Strong's concordance.
Oz
Cygnus
Member
I have no problem with Strongs. The bible hub link is easy to use.
Butch5
Member
Agreed, but you said if God hadn't opened her heart she would have never believed.
Do you read NT Greek? If so, you would go to Greek dictionaries (lexicons) for the meanings of words.
Cygnus
Member
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Cygnus
Member
Strongs works just fine.
Let's take a look at the assumptions being made above:
Jn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
God chooses us, and even appoints us to bear fruit, yet there is still that second sentence about the Father giving us whatever we ask
in His name!! If we don't then ask anything of Him, or doing anything in HIs name what then? We have choices to make. WE can choose to seek the Lord in the morning and serve Him, talk to Him, and help others, or not! The Israelites were a chosen people, but what happened? They said at the mountain, "Let God not speak to us."
Deut 14:02 for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasures possession.
There is an assumption made that if a person or a people are chosen by God that those people will be faithful! The Israelites and the Old testament serve as a glaring example of how people act!! You can be chosen, you can be dragged through the desert for forty years and still not make it to the promised land!! Or didn't we read the Old Testament also?
Jn 10:26,27 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
So it does that mean that "Only His sheep hear His voice."?
Rev 3:20 Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Jesus is standing there knocking with HIs voice and anyone could hear HIs voice and open the door. That doesn't mean just anyone will, but it is available to anyone.
Romans 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
People, all people are responsible for having believed and thus having listened to God, and then doing what He says. And they have ears to hear, even if they won't hear! His sheep do hear, and it is that hearing that has them following the Lord. And yes, God chooses them and He gives mercy and grace out as He wishes. He is God. but that doesn't mean they haven't heard, but that they don't listen with the ears that they do have.
We all have shut out others that were talking in the same room as were in at times. We heard them, but we didn't listen to them. We ignored them and paid no attention to them. We do that with God and His kingdom. The other person could come up and tap on our shoulder or I suppose even kick us to get our attention, or perhaps they won't. And that is how it is with God. None of us turn and listen to God, but some He comes us and perhaps kicks us, or screams in our spiritual ear, and some He doesn't. He can do what He wishes, because He is God. He can have mercy and grace on who He wishes, but that doesn't mean that every one in the room didn't hear. They all heard, but they didn't all listen.
It seems "heard' and "listen" gets a little confusing. My wife sometimes tells me I didn't hear her. Of course I heard he, but perhaps I didn't listen to what she was saying like I should have. That gets me in trouble. And not listening, as in choosing to actually listen to the Lord through out the day tends to get me in trouble with that marriage also. When I do choose to listen to the One who talks to me I get understanding and knowledge.
Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
If you have indeed been listening, you certainly have seen that He choose you first, but you can get up in the morning and faithfully seek Him and choose to pay attention to Him. If you don't He might do something like start waking you up in the middle of the night to get your attention, or He might not and just let you suffer a bit for not paying attention to Him. We know that right? May some do and some don't, according to His desecration, but everyone has the choice even if none make that choice, and even if none are righteous, and even if all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Sinthesis
Member
Act 16:13 - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 16:14 - And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 - And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Act 16:14 - And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 - And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
The way I read the above passage is that Lydia already believed in The Father, and by hearing the Gospel through Paul came to also believe in Jesus Christ. The Lord(Jesus Christ) thus vicariously opened Lydia's heart through His life/death/resurrection as communicated by Paul. This interpretation is consistent with the example given farther down the chapter.
Act 16:29 - Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 - And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 - And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 - And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Act 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 - And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 - And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 - And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Again, you avoided answering my question , so your response is a red herring fallacy.
When will you learn to respond to what I write instead of giving your tangent?